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    The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Apparenly the VTG chargers produce so much heat, that Porsche wasn't actually ABLE to push the power figure above 480 HP without compromising the longtime reliability of the used technology. Keep in mind that Porsche tests their products under extreme conditions, so a tuned 997 Turbo may prove to be reliable even with high power figures...unless you drive it in the desert at +50*C temperatures.

    Tuning the 997 Turbo is no easy job, this is one reason why some Tuners are actually exchanging the VTG chargers with "normal" chargers. I don't know if this is THE solution, some Tuners managed to squeeze out "reliable" 550 HP out of the VTG charger equipped engine without compromising safety. Unfortunately, most tuning kits sold in the past are not really reliable or even safe but owners would probably never experience something bad because they don't live in regions with high temperatures and/or they don't driv the car for a prolonged time at extreme speeds.

    I don't know if Porsche did that by purpose to "limit" Tuners from getting excessive power figures out of the 997 Turbo but anyone who is interested in tuning his 997 Turbo should be aware of possible problems and consequences.

    Right now, any power figure above 550 HP using the original VTG chargers, can be considered "unreliable" and "unsafe". Of course the people I talked to didn't give or allow me to provide details but if you consider to tune your engine and if you want to stay on the safe side and if you don't want to heavily mod your engine, stick with power figures below 550 HP or so. As a general "rule", increased power figures in the 10-15% range should be fine. Anythin above that...your risk.

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    In other words upgrade to the GT2

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    RC, so what was the point in using the VTG chargers if turbo lag wasn't eliminated?
    Was it a band-aid for restricting HP to the consumer? Marketing gimmick?

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    RC, so what was the point in using the VTG chargers if turbo lag wasn't eliminated?
    Was it a band-aid for restricting HP to the consumer? Marketing gimmick?



    1. Marketing gimmick in the first place, very likely also the beginning of a promising technology which isn't yet perfect.
    2. VTG technology actually reduces the turbo lag, I don't know why people keep claiming something different. Driving a 996 Turbo back to back with a 997 Turbo may prove it. The VTG technology does NOT completely eliminate the lag though.
    3. fuel consumption and future emissions regulations, I can't hide the feeling that VTG technology has strongly to do with that too.

    Personally, I think that the VTG technology is a good start but I expected much more from Porsche, I have to admit that too. The 997 Turbo is a great sportscar and at least at par with the competition but there was a time when the 911 Turbo was AHEAD the competition and this is something I don't see right now. I don't understand why some people are trying to make the 997 Turbo look bad, it is an impressive car and probably "overkill" for most drivers. I can however understand the disappointment that Porsche didn't offer something more impressive, a real competition "killer".

    The problem with the 997 Turbo is: people have options now. The F430, the Gallardo, even the Z06. Porsche is to blame for giving people these options and I don't think this was a good decision from a marketing point of view. Since Porsche seems to care mostly about money-making and VW right now, I don't expect too many spectacular products from them in the near future. The Panamera specs are already known (sorry, can't tell details but look at the Cayenne and you get a first glimpse ) and the upcoming GT2 won't offer any real surprises either.

    My sportscar is still a Porsche and may be still a Porsche in the future. Our family cars however are a different story. Porsche has become too expensive and I don't see the reason to may a lot of cash for something I can get from Audi or other companies or less money. If Porsche continues this way, I may even reconsider my sportscar options and go for something else too. As much as I love Porsche but sometimes their model decisions are completely wrong in my opinion. Of course I'm a customer "only" and shareholders seem to be more important these days...

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Christian,

    Another excellent write up form you!

    Glad that you are back with us little bit more then previous months...

    Any news from you about "Power kit" for 997 turbo? 512ps or not? Available form August 2007 or not?

    Just PM me if you can not post some of the info here...

    Thanks!

    Hope that you and your family are OK!

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    RC said:

    1. Marketing gimmick in the first place, very likely also the beginning of a promising technology which isn't yet perfect.
    2. VTG technology actually reduces the turbo lag, I don't know why people keep claiming something different. Driving a 996 Turbo back to back with a 997 Turbo may prove it. The VTG technology does NOT completely eliminate the lag though.
    3. fuel consumption and future emissions regulations, I can't hide the feeling that VTG technology has strongly to do with that too.

    Personally, I think that the VTG technology is a good start but I expected much more from Porsche, I have to admit that too. The 997 Turbo is a great sportscar and at least at par with the competition but there was a time when the 911 Turbo was AHEAD the competition and this is something I don't see right now. I don't understand why some people are trying to make the 997 Turbo look bad, it is an impressive car and probably "overkill" for most drivers. I can however understand the disappointment that Porsche didn't offer something more impressive, a real competition "killer".

    The problem with the 997 Turbo is: people have options now. The F430, the Gallardo, even the Z06. Porsche is to blame for giving people these options and I don't think this was a good decision from a marketing point of view. Since Porsche seems to care mostly about money-making and VW right now, I don't expect too many spectacular products from them in the near future. The Panamera specs are already known (sorry, can't tell details but look at the Cayenne and you get a first glimpse ) and the upcoming GT2 won't offer any real surprises either.

    My sportscar is still a Porsche and may be still a Porsche in the future. Our family cars however are a different story. Porsche has become too expensive and I don't see the reason to may a lot of cash for something I can get from Audi or other companies or less money. If Porsche continues this way, I may even reconsider my sportscar options and go for something else too. As much as I love Porsche but sometimes their model decisions are completely wrong in my opinion. Of course I'm a customer "only" and shareholders seem to be more important these days...



    Excellent and truthful as always.

    Good to see you back buddy .

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Apparenly the VTG chargers produce so much heat, that Porsche wasn't actually ABLE to push the power figure above 480 HP without compromising the longtime reliability of the used technology. Keep in mind that Porsche tests their products under extreme conditions, so a tuned 997 Turbo may prove to be reliable even with high power figures...unless you drive it in the desert at +50*C temperatures.

    Tuning the 997 Turbo is no easy job, this is one reason why some Tuners are actually exchanging the VTG chargers with "normal" chargers. I don't know if this is THE solution, some Tuners managed to squeeze out "reliable" 550 HP out of the VTG charger equipped engine without compromising safety. Unfortunately, most tuning kits sold in the past are not really reliable or even safe but owners would probably never experience something bad because they don't live in regions with high temperatures and/or they don't driv the car for a prolonged time at extreme speeds.

    I don't know if Porsche did that by purpose to "limit" Tuners from getting excessive power figures out of the 997 Turbo but anyone who is interested in tuning his 997 Turbo should be aware of possible problems and consequences.

    Right now, any power figure above 550 HP using the original VTG chargers, can be considered "unreliable" and "unsafe". Of course the people I talked to didn't give or allow me to provide details but if you consider to tune your engine and if you want to stay on the safe side and if you don't want to heavily mod your engine, stick with power figures below 550 HP or so. As a general "rule", increased power figures in the 10-15% range should be fine. Anythin above that...your risk.



    Very interesting... I truely ask myself whether the whole VTG technology is really required. The real-life advantage of VTG is not that substantial whereas the limitations appear quite significant

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Of course I'm a customer "only" and shareholders seem to be more important these days...



    Customers are leaving first - shareholders will follow soon. Lack of USP = declining shareprice. I won't buy any Porsche stock, that is for sure...

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    RC,

    Have you ever dealt with the EVO product line ? Todd at EVO has indicated that the Stage 4 upgrade (610 crank HP) should be reliable based upon 996 series mods being supremely reliable. Furthermore, is your 550 figure crank HP or HP at the wheels. I think that is a HUGE difference. If you mean 550 crank HP, that would indeed be a surprise based upon my conversations with EVO. 550 HP at the wheels would make more sense, but I defer to your expertise. Anyway, are you saying to pass on the EVO Stage 4 kit if there crank HP is 610 ? As a soon to be tip owner looking for daily drivability, but desirous of true violent spank power (on call) whats your mod recommendation ASSUMING I keep the tip TT ? No jerkoff on this listserve need tell me to get another car (especially a Z06 with no auto tranny, no rear seat for kids and no AWD for inclement weather). Being from NY I'd prefer to stay with a local (US) tuner with a local (NY) installer. I initially thought EVO as they are Stateside and have a local installer in LI who has installed many mods on my colleagues 996 TTs. I prefer that you give me the straight skinny, if possible, on what to do here. If, on the other hand, you have no experience, personally, doing the tip mods, I would appreciate hearing your opinion if you have friends that have modded the tip. I do not need to hear about mods to the 6 speed as I have given up on them (I respectfully refer you to my prior posts). Thanks for any guidance. BTW, I agree that a different marque is possible in the future, BUT where can you get a reliable daily driver (to easily handle 10K miles p/yr), 2+2 seating (w/rear seat for kids), auto tranny (for horrific traffic), AWD (all weather performance), good dealer network (for servicing), excellent overall performance (as good as 95% of supercars) for a fair price (approx. $150K) ? When another marque gives me ALL of the above I'll have no hesitation to switch loyalties. Until then, all other non-997TT owners will have to drive at least 2 cars to get the same attributes. Don't abandon ship just yet. Just my 2 cents.

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    tortesq1 said:
    RC,

    Have you ever dealt with the EVO product line ? Todd at EVO has indicated that the Stage 4 upgrade (610 crank HP) should be reliable based upon 996 series mods being supremely reliable. Furthermore, is your 550 figure crank HP or HP at the wheels. I think that is a HUGE difference. If you mean 550 crank HP, that would indeed be a surprise based upon my conversations with EVO. 550 HP at the wheels would make more sense, but I defer to your expertise. Anyway, are you saying to pass on the EVO Stage 4 kit if there crank HP is 610 ? As a soon to be tip owner looking for daily drivability, but desirous of true violent spank power (on call) whats your mod recommendation ASSUMING I keep the tip TT ? No jerkoff on this listserve need tell me to get another car (especially a Z06 with no auto tranny, no rear seat for kids and no AWD for inclement weather). Being from NY I'd prefer to stay with a local (US) tuner with a local (NY) installer. I initially thought EVO as they are Stateside and have a local installer in LI who has installed many mods on my colleagues 996 TTs. I prefer that you give me the straight skinny, if possible, on what to do here. If, on the other hand, you have no experience, personally, doing the tip mods, I would appreciate hearing your opinion if you have friends that have modded the tip. I do not need to hear about mods to the 6 speed as I have given up on them (I respectfully refer you to my prior posts). Thanks for any guidance. BTW, I agree that a different marque is possible in the future, BUT where can you get a reliable daily driver (to easily handle 10K miles p/yr), 2+2 seating (w/rear seat for kids), auto tranny (for horrific traffic), AWD (all weather performance), good dealer network (for servicing), excellent overall performance (as good as 95% of supercars) for a fair price (approx. $150K) ? When another marque gives me ALL of the above I'll have no hesitation to switch loyalties. Until then, all other non-997TT owners will have to drive at least 2 cars to get the same attributes. Don't abandon ship just yet. Just my 2 cents.



    tortesq, Christian has already stated that there are no problems with mods if you live in the US (not directly, but he did ). The reliability "issue" is only an issue in Europe, where most of these cars are driven fast for prolonged periods of time. An occasional burst of full acceleration won't ruin your engine, that's for sure.

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    RC is just saying that with the current VTG turbos Porsche has , an aftermarket power pkg developed and tuned in wintry Bavaria probably would not meet Porsche's OEM reliabilty , long term emissions and warranty responsibilties if driven frequently in 115 F heat between Las Vegas and Phoenix all summer long at frequent WOT .
    But anyone who has upgraded from stock and done it repeatedly should already know from experience you have to " play " carefully vs stock.
    More power equals more heat and every system in a car is affected by that simple understanding of physics .

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Porsche has been full of mediocre surprises and "innovations" lately.

    I also think tuners are using regular turbos because they simply don't know how to tune the VTGs.

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    I think the GT2 will have 520hp.

    Do you think it will use the same tt turbo?

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    i find it interesting that champion motorsports in fl. has elected to sell/ market the g.i.a.c. ecu upgrade that owners here have been so enthuiastic about for awhile ...obviously good stuff if you decide to head in that direction...they are also exclusive distributors of the tubi exhaust that i found underwelming

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    very interesting points on the future direction of turbo charges. I do hope someone from the P HQ is watching...

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    tortesq1 said:
    RC,

    Have you ever dealt with the EVO product line ? Todd at EVO has indicated that the Stage 4 upgrade (610 crank HP) should be reliable based upon 996 series mods being supremely reliable. Furthermore, is your 550 figure crank HP or HP at the wheels. I think that is a HUGE difference. If you mean 550 crank HP, that would indeed be a surprise based upon my conversations with EVO. 550 HP at the wheels would make more sense, but I defer to your expertise. Anyway, are you saying to pass on the EVO Stage 4 kit if there crank HP is 610 ? As a soon to be tip owner looking for daily drivability, but desirous of true violent spank power (on call) whats your mod recommendation ASSUMING I keep the tip TT ? No jerkoff on this listserve need tell me to get another car (especially a Z06 with no auto tranny, no rear seat for kids and no AWD for inclement weather). Being from NY I'd prefer to stay with a local (US) tuner with a local (NY) installer. I initially thought EVO as they are Stateside and have a local installer in LI who has installed many mods on my colleagues 996 TTs. I prefer that you give me the straight skinny, if possible, on what to do here. If, on the other hand, you have no experience, personally, doing the tip mods, I would appreciate hearing your opinion if you have friends that have modded the tip. I do not need to hear about mods to the 6 speed as I have given up on them (I respectfully refer you to my prior posts). Thanks for any guidance. BTW, I agree that a different marque is possible in the future, BUT where can you get a reliable daily driver (to easily handle 10K miles p/yr), 2+2 seating (w/rear seat for kids), auto tranny (for horrific traffic), AWD (all weather performance), good dealer network (for servicing), excellent overall performance (as good as 95% of supercars) for a fair price (approx. $150K) ? When another marque gives me ALL of the above I'll have no hesitation to switch loyalties. Until then, all other non-997TT owners will have to drive at least 2 cars to get the same attributes. Don't abandon ship just yet. Just my 2 cents.


    I agree with you on the 997 TT its an awesome car that is hard to equal.

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?



    Porsche should milk the non TT customers as much as they want, but the TT has to be a dream car, one that make people say: how did they do that? Amazing...

    Sadly, the 997TT is anything but that, even RC's comment show he is not entirely happy. And even on the Cayenne front, the ML63 is faster with handling a hair lower. Porsche is seen as a luxury brand of sportscar with very high performance. They have to step up. If the Panamera doesn't beat a CL/S AMG, they are toast.

    Being in the US, Porsches are good values, thus I own two of them. If I was in Europe, I would not own any today.

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:


    Porsche should milk the non TT customers as much as they want, but the TT has to be a dream car, one that make people say: how did they do that? Amazing...

    Sadly, the 997TT is anything but that, even RC's comment show he is not entirely happy. And even on the Cayenne front, the ML63 is faster with handling a hair lower. Porsche is seen as a luxury brand of sportscar with very high performance. They have to step up. If the Panamera doesn't beat a CL/S AMG, they are toast.

    Being in the US, Porsches are good values, thus I own two of them. If I was in Europe, I would not own any today.



    Your post is an excellent summary of Porsche's problem today. Not good enough + too expensive (in Europe)

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:

    Being in the US, Porsches are good values, thus I own two of them. If I was in Europe, I would not own any today.



    Have you heard of Nberry?

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    RC- excellent writeup as always...and unbiased, very good. Starts to make me wonder if a gallardo would be the way to go as a daily-no-cost sports car...

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    SoCalHoosier said:
    RC, so what was the point in using the VTG chargers if turbo lag wasn't eliminated?
    Was it a band-aid for restricting HP to the consumer? Marketing gimmick?



    1. Marketing gimmick in the first place, very likely also the beginning of a promising technology which isn't yet perfect.
    2. VTG technology actually reduces the turbo lag, I don't know why people keep claiming something different. Driving a 996 Turbo back to back with a 997 Turbo may prove it. The VTG technology does NOT completely eliminate the lag though.
    3. fuel consumption and future emissions regulations, I can't hide the feeling that VTG technology has strongly to do with that too.

    Personally, I think that the VTG technology is a good start but I expected much more from Porsche, I have to admit that too. The 997 Turbo is a great sportscar and at least at par with the competition but there was a time when the 911 Turbo was AHEAD the competition and this is something I don't see right now. I don't understand why some people are trying to make the 997 Turbo look bad, it is an impressive car and probably "overkill" for most drivers. I can however understand the disappointment that Porsche didn't offer something more impressive, a real competition "killer".

    The problem with the 997 Turbo is: people have options now. The F430, the Gallardo, even the Z06. Porsche is to blame for giving people these options and I don't think this was a good decision from a marketing point of view. Since Porsche seems to care mostly about money-making and VW right now, I don't expect too many spectacular products from them in the near future. The Panamera specs are already known (sorry, can't tell details but look at the Cayenne and you get a first glimpse ) and the upcoming GT2 won't offer any real surprises either.

    My sportscar is still a Porsche and may be still a Porsche in the future. Our family cars however are a different story. Porsche has become too expensive and I don't see the reason to may a lot of cash for something I can get from Audi or other companies or less money. If Porsche continues this way, I may even reconsider my sportscar options and go for something else too. As much as I love Porsche but sometimes their model decisions are completely wrong in my opinion. Of course I'm a customer "only" and shareholders seem to be more important these days...



    Had 996TTS Tip and 997TT Tip....couldn't discern a material difference in turbo lag btwn the two, despite the VTG marketing nonsense ....suspect driving on fast, dense-traffic CA urban fwys (often in wrong gear while on phone and late to a mtg) reveals turbo lag/weak tq/slow shiftspeed issues fairly quickly....

    Interestingly, the biturbo 600s and 65s lack perceivable turbo lag in same conditions (65s have dubious traction on uneven and/or wet pavement, but 600s have solid trac)....

    Would suspect that NA, high-tq motors like those of 599/63 are perhaps best solution to offer both more interesting, linear throttle response and a more compelling exhaust note (and both F/MB have paddleshifters unlike antiquated P)....in context of a tq level compatible w/reassuring traction on bumpy, sometimes wet, US roads

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    RC is just saying that with the current VTG turbos Porsche has , an aftermarket power pkg developed and tuned in wintry Bavaria probably would not meet Porsche's OEM reliabilty , long term emissions and warranty responsibilties if driven frequently in 115 F heat between Las Vegas and Phoenix all summer long at frequent WOT .
    But anyone who has upgraded from stock and done it repeatedly should already know from experience you have to " play " carefully vs stock.
    More power equals more heat and every system in a car is affected by that simple understanding of physics .




    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    Quote:
    bostonmini said:
    RC- excellent writeup as always...and unbiased, very good. Starts to make me wonder if a gallardo would be the way to go as a daily-no-cost sports car...


    how does a gallardo make sense as a daily driver?

    although i complain about the "slight" lag, it's barely noticable and certainly not like the 951s or the 964t. i was expecting "instant" response based on the marketing hype of vtg.

    i have a fabspeed exhaust on my 997tt and the turbo seem to spool up faster ... or at least, it sounds that way.

    Re: The "truth" about the 480 HP power figure?

    golfguy,

    I have the Fabspeed exhaust and EVO headers and have posted a similar feeling...the lag seems less with smoother power on. The engine note is very nice as well! Anyone else like to give us remarks?

    Mike

     
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