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    997TT geometry settings

    Hi guys

    I am trying to compile a table with everyone's geometry settings for their 997 Turbos (converted into degrees and minutes of a degree).  This is what I have thus far, compiled from various sources.


    Please tell me if I need to change anything or if you have more info you would like to contribute then I can add you to the table.

    I am still searching for my perfect set-up.  Right now my winter setting is still too jittery under hard acceleration.  I will be trying Nick's set-up next I think, however it won't be for another month and by then the cold weather will probably have passed and I will want summer settings (like the stock GT3) again.


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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Alex_997 TT,

    the work you have done is wonderful.

    Though what would you advise for the 997TT owner who wants his car to handle better? where is the golden medium of all those settings?


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    artur777:

    Alex_997 TT,

    the work you have done is wonderful.

    Though what would you advise for the 997TT owner who wants his car to handle better? where is the golden medium of all those settings?

    When I find it, I will tell you!!

    Cannga, TT Surgeon and  GotBoost are all very happy with their setups, but the latter 2 I'd say are more track than road.  Nick just had his winter setting done and apparently the car is now glued to the road even with 700bhp.

    However, it really depends what upgraded suspension parts you have on your car as to whether some of the settings above are achievable. 

    I have lowered my car by 20mm (to GT2 ride height) and swapped out all the parts listed on my signature.  I still can't adjust as much as someone like GT on this forum though as he has more upgrades than I do.

    With a stock Turbo I would say just go to a good Tuning specialist as ask for their 'fast-road' set-up.  I did the same with a company called Parr here in the UK and they made my stock Turbo 'dance' compared to the factory set-up.  They woudn't tell me what they did though and before I could find out I went far too fast down a cobbled hill and knocked out all the settings - so now I will never know as I'm with a new geo specialist.


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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    I might change round the chart so that it goes downwards instead of across...
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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Hit Browser Refresh to see new chart on first post
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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    artur777:

    Alex_997 TT,

    the work you have done is wonderful.

    Though what would you advise for the 997TT owner who wants his car to handle better? where is the golden medium of all those settings?

    Yes kudo to Alex!  I've read numerous & countless posts on suspension tuning, and I have to say this is one of the most useful tables I've run across.

    For anyone new to this, concentrate on 3 numbers (the other numbers are more or less stock values):

    1. Front camber: tuners make it more negative to increase front cornering force/traction and reduce understeer, a big problem with stock Turbo. Another example is that if you feel the outside front tire "rolling" on itself during hard cornering, you need more neg. camber.

    2. Front toe: stock is positive which is toe-in; some of us change to negative which is toe-out. Toe out improves steering's turn-in response and allows the car to rotate better in corners (throttle-controlled oversteer Smiley Smiley ). Steering becomes very direct and sensitive so this is one you must be careful about. This is the one setting that makes the car "dance" LOL and is used (with caution) by some of the top tuners here in the US, and I suspect, Alex's first tuner, Parr, as well.

    3. Rear camber: more negative to improve traction in high speed corners.

    The stock Turbo likes to go straight in corners (understeer) and it has lazy steering (compared to GT2), so 1 & 2 are the corrective measures for that. What you do is of course depends on what you are looking for, but in general, conservative would be adjustment of item 1 only (Shavster, eclou, KA 997TT), next step is 1 plus 2 (cannga), or 1 plus 3 (GT), the most aggressive is 1, 2, and 3 (TT Surgeon, who tracks the car at advanced level).

    Within each item, how much is also important. Look at GT's very aggressive camber numbers compared to say, eclou/cannga/shavster.

    And lastly keep in mind, nothing comes free. Each step of the way, there are plus and minuses. Many of the gory details could be found in the thread in my signature. Good luck and have fun.        


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Hit refresh again to see updated table
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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Really good site: http://home.scarlet.be/~be067749/58/tc/print.htm


    Caster

    Caster is a very sensitive adjustment!
    Adding or removing a few degrees of caster can transform the steering balance of a car.
    More More caster aids stability, especially at high speeds.
    More caster generally suits large, open, high-speed tracks.
    Less Less caster increases steering drastically.
    Steering feels much more direct, the car turns tighter and faster.
    Small amounts of caster are suitable for tight tracks.

    Toe


    Rear Toe-in This is one of the most sensitive adjustments! One degree goes a long way.
    Stabilizes the car greatly. It makes the rear end 'stick'. The more toe-in you use, the more the rear of the car sticks. This is especially apparent going into and coming out of turns.
    But more toe-in makes the difference between sticking and breaking loose bigger.
    Large amounts of toe-in (2.5 ... 3 degrees) scrub off a little speed in the straights.
    Rear Toe-out Rear toe-out is never used. It makes the rear of the car very, very unstable.
    Front Toe-in Stabilizes the car in the straights, and coming out of turns.
    It smoothes out the steering response, making the car easy to drive.
    It can make the car turn a little more in the middle and exit parts of a turn.
    Front Toe-out Increases turn-in steering a lot.
    But can make the car wandery on the straights.
    Never use more than 2 degrees of front toe-out!

    Camber


    Camber is best set so the tires' contact patch is as big as possible at all times. So with a stiff suspension and firm tires you'll need less camber than with a soft suspension or tires with big, flexible sidewalls.
    If the tires wear evenly across their contact patches, camber is about right.


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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Added some notes. I guessed at track use and happiness with settings from posts people have put up.

    If you want to change anything please let me know and I will update table.

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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    cannga and Alex_997TT - thanks for your help

    It's really useful and helpful.

    I will study all that:-)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    cannga and Alex_997TT - one more question to you:

    why just don't apply settings from GT2 to Turbo?

    we take into consideration that Porsche engineers are smart enough to make very good, close to perfect settings in GT2...


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Eclou's setup is very close to GT2/GT3 street alignment. You have to bear in mind though that the GT2 and Turbo have different weight distributions, different tyres, different suspension components, and 2 vs 4 wheel drive. So a Turbo with GT2 spec alignment will not handle the same as a GT2 under the same situations.
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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    artur777:

    cannga and Alex_997TT - one more question to you:

    why just don't apply settings from GT2 to Turbo?

    That is exactly what we are doing.

    There is really nothing exotic to my 15-pages thread about suspension modding; the basic principles are to make the car stiffer and take corners better, like the GT2. The 2 main items of the mod in fact take the Turbo towards the GT2's settings:

    1. Stiffer coilover/spring.

    2. Change alignment.

    For item 1, we use the Bilstein coilover. If you look carefully, you will notice that the spring rates of the Bilstein are much closer to those of the GT2. We also know Sir WR is a consultant for Bilstein, and that Bilstein is the OEM manufacturer. So where does that leave us? In a VERY good position, I would say! Smiley

    For item 2, the alignment settings we use, as Alex mentioned, are in fact the "street" setting of the GT2. As some of use more aggressive numbers for camber settings front and rear, we are now aiming for the tract setting of the same car, GT2.

    Also, as Alex mentioned, there are some fundamental differences between the Turbo and the GT2: weight, and AWD versus RWD. The one thing some of the top tuners in the US have used that are not seen in the GT2 is the front toe out setting. And there is a reason for this in my (amateur) opinion. AWD car like the Turbo has neutral steering and does not "power oversteer" very well (on exiting -- NOT entry!! -- corner if one applies throttle, the rear end comes out, or rotates; this is good if done in a controlled manner as one doesn't have to reduce speed on exit). The toe out setting helps the AWD driver Turbo to rotate better.


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Re table entry: "Never use more than 2 degrees of front toe-out!"

    2 degrees might be entertaining for a while Smiley, but I think you intended to write 2 minutes of angle.


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    fritz

    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    a few observations regarding my setup for the purpose of this chart;

    I have GT3 sway bars that are set at 2 front, 1 rear for track and 1 f/r for the street. Regarding my alignment settings, this is strange but I measured my car in the uk and it seems that the settings I had were different to the ones I was given from switzerland.. So the camber is -1.3 and -1.2 f/r. Not sure how to explain this but thats what they told me.

    I am overall almost 100% happy (or 9/10) especially after I switched to modified but stock droplinks that eliminate quite a bit of the stiffness for stiff driving. Together with dog bones, toe links, cup arms f/r and thrust bushings, dymags the car has perfect control on the track and is also driveable in the city. Only complain is that I get some wheel hop in the back in certain type of traction conditions when playing around 1st, 2nd gear (ie going sideways..Smiley) .

    Now one last thing that worries me. I don't know if I am the first person but I just got a PASM failure warning light after 9 months and less than 10k miles. Dealership diagnosed FR shock valve.. I am in contact with the people I bought the bilstein's from in the US and still don't know if they are covered by warranty! Obviously this is a huge mess now for me.. 

     

     


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    also my car is approximately 15mm lower front and rear from stock. Apparently that will make a difference to the stiffness of the coilover springs (lower=softer)

    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    cannga and Alex_997TT - thanks for the information

    i see that the difference between GT2 aqnd Turbo is big really...

    what settings will you dvise for me if I want to make my Turbo nore driveable and safer but I am not a track fan?


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    GT:
    also my car is approximately 15mm lower front and rear from stock. Apparently that will make a difference to the stiffness of the coilover springs (lower=softer)

    GT, check to make sure that the following is correct, but AFAIK product is undeer warranty for a very long time.  In the US, what you do is called Bilstein, they will send you new shock absorbers and charge your credit card a deposit (about US $1000 for the front 2 for example). When you receive the new ones, send Bilstein the old ones. They will inspect and determine whose fault. If it's indeed a true failure, they will refund your amount.

    Not perfect perhaps, but about as good as could be. One advantage of buying Bilstein; they are a huge business and will go out of their way to please customers.

    >>>>>>>>>>

    GENERAL WARRANTY DETAILS
    ThyssenKrupp Bilstein of America warrants its gas pressure shock absorbers against defects in workmanship and materials for as long as you, the original purchaser, own your car.

            


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    artur777:

    cannga and Alex_997TT - thanks for the information

    i see that the difference between GT2 aqnd Turbo is big really...

    what settings will you dvise for me if I want to make my Turbo nore driveable and safer but I am not a track fan?

    Alex,
    Would you please change me to 9.5 happiness scale?


    Artur,
    Can't speak for winter condition; such a word doesn't exist here in Southern Cal. Smiley Otherwise, your parameter is similar to mine. I don't track the car and drive it daily.

    First, it is absolutely critical in my opinion that alignment be changed one parameter at a time.
    Second, please do NOT push the car to the limit for the first 2-3 weeks after any alignment change. And always remember slow in fast out.
    Lastly just sharing my experience here, not trying to teach anyone anything LOL: What I do is drive through a few curves on familiar roads, not many,  3-4 is enough so that my memory isn't confused, and go through them many times (hundreds in my case since I drive the car daily) and observe the max safe speed and behavior of the car. I do this repeatedly before and after every change.

    I would do it in 2 steps:

    1. Front camber to -1 degree 12 minutes (this is same as eclou's -- first person to suggest this mod for the Turbo). Drive this for about 3 months.

    2. If, and only if, you are interested in the toe-out, then I would start with minus 2 minute front toe out. It is important here that you do not test the car limit in the first 2-3 weeks post change.

    The steps are completely reversible. I assume you already have Bilstein?


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Absolutely

    Bilstein is a must and the first step to do.

    I will try number one:-) I hope that any decent orsche tuning company is able to change the geometry settings...

    What about rear camber BTW?


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    artur777:

    I will try number one:-) I hope that any decent orsche tuning company is able to change the geometry settings...

    What about rear camber BTW?

    Make sure to insist on a printout of, or at least look at, the alignment settings before and after any change. Now you are well equipped to just glance quickly and see exactly what the settings mean; what to concentrate on. Smiley

    The Turbo rear camber is already at GT2 level. For a mostly street car, my opinion is don't touch it. Everything we change has advantages and disadvantages, so more negative camber is not always a good thing.

    I believe the pro's set camber at the track by measuring temp across the tire; best camber = equal temp across width of tire.
    My tuner sets camber, I believe (not sure but I should be fairly accurate), by looking at the wear of my tire. More wear on the outside means you need more negative camber (like my front tires). Even wear on the tire means leave camber alone.

    >>>>>>>>>>>
    http://www.tirerack.com/tires/tiretech/techpage.jsp?techid=
    What's the downside to negative camber? Negative camber leans both tires on the axle towards the center of the vehicle. Each tire develops an equal and offsetting "camber thrust" force (the same principle that causes a motorcycle to turn when it leans) even when the vehicle is driven straight ahead. If the vehicle encounters a bump that only causes one tire to lose some of its grip, the other tire's negative camber will push the vehicle in the direction of the tire that lost grip. The vehicle may feel more "nervous" and become more susceptible to tramlining. Excessive camber will also reduce the available straight-line grip required for rapid acceleration and hard stops.

            


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Thanks caanga. Can you please send me any contact details for bilsten usa? Do you have any contacts there I could call or email o this? The shop that sold those to me is not responding to me for the time being.. Thanks

    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Thanks for the clarification...

    I will check it with care...

    Turbo is one tricky car BTW


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    GT:
    Thanks caanga. Can you please send me any contact details for bilsten usa? Do you have any contacts there I could call or email o this? The shop that sold those to me is not responding to me for the time being.. Thanks

    You're very welcome. Call the following number and ask for the person taking care of warranty replacement. Don't mention my name; they'll run away screaming "not him again." Smiley
    They will ask for copy of receipt to confirm you purchase from an authorized dealer. I hope this is the case?

    http://www.bilstein.com/contact.php?PHPSESSID=275d353b6a52807ade9b7b60afae3387

    AFTERMARKET & MOTORSPORTS
    HEADQUARTERS - WEST
    14102 Stowe Drive
    Poway, CA. 92064
    1-858-386-5900



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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    UPDATED as per requests

    Can, I am not going to go into fraction of integers on how happy people are as I don't believe there is not another possible setup for your car that would not warrant more than 0.5 better score than you have now!



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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Alex_997TT:

    UPDATED as per requests

     

    Can, I am not going to go into fraction of integers on how happy people are as I don't believe there is not another possible setup for your car that would not warrant more than 0.5 better score than you have now!


    Alex, thanks. I meant to have a smilie next to my request; 9 is more than enough and yes I agree completely. Heaven knows even if I had the best car in the world I would still want to tweak something. Anything. Smiley

            


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein PSS10 (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Problem fixed! it was a bent cable in the FR shock. Bilstein USA pointed out the potential problem with photos, instructions etc and that was it! Apparently it has happened before so in case someone else sees a PASM failure light with B16s, don't despair until you get them checked..


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Hit refresh for a new chart above
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    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    Hi,

     Anyone on the alignment list running on 20" wheels? I've been trying to find out the ideal combination for quite some time. Currently on GMG springs, GT3 sways with tarrett drop links, adjustable rear toe links, and front tie rods.

     Would appreciate any inputs.. Thanks a lot!

     Ronnie


    Re: 997TT geometry settings

    WTT997:

    Hi,

     Anyone on the alignment list running on 20" wheels? I've been trying to find out the ideal combination for quite some time. Currently on GMG springs, GT3 sways with tarrett drop links, adjustable rear toe links, and front tie rods.

     Would appreciate any inputs.. Thanks a lot!

     Ronnie


     

    I have not ran across any article that states the need to change alignment settings according to wheel size. Since the most noticeable change from bigger rim is a harsher ride, if anything needs to be done, I would think  it is related to reducing compression dampening or spring rate, not alignment change.

    So my vote would be to do the same as what a lot of people are doing: Keep everything stock, except increasing the front camber to a more negative value like the GT2. Mine is around minus 1.2 degree.

    If you are so inclined and feel the steering is lazy, the second step you might want to consider is very slight front toe out. Mine is at minus 2 minutes.

    And that's it. Nothing dramatic but it would wake up your Turbo IMO.


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    Regards,
    Can
    997 Turbo + Bilstein Damptronic (Review) + Cargraphic Exhaust (Heavenly Race Car Noise Smiley Review)


     
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