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    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Great shot!

    The 904 has wonderful flowing curves and I can see many past design elements in the 918.

    I remember reading that the weight of the fiberglass tail alone on the 904 could vary as much as fifty pounds. Smiley

    Did you know that some of the later 904's were actually considered 906's?


    Re: Porsche surprise in Geneva - concept of CGT succesor ?

    W8MM:

    Wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Porsche really knows how to push my buttons

    Mike,

    They even have it in your color Smiley.

    918.JPG


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    Happy Driving

    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Nice shots of the early P-racers by RacerX....but some remind me just a bit of some elements in the Cayman eg. the rear window treatment.. which leads me to wonder this:   Could Porsche develop some of the 918 styling direction as a new direction for the Cayman? 

    My thinking here is that the Cayman has been a disappointment to Porsche  sales-wise, and many enthusiasts believe  that Porsche will continue to hobble its power and technology  to force it to stay below 911 (which may explain why they avoid it and sales stay low..).  

    The "new Cayman" would:

    - develop the 918 styling direction (without directly copying the production 918 which appears to be heading for super-exotic territory) especially if it can capture the CGT targa-style roof which avoids the need to build both roadster and coupe versions

    - be allowed to build a mid-engine range of cars similar in cost to 911 range thus in parallel with the 911 series, but with more leading design thinking (ie. leave the 911 as an icon forever until it does not sell well)

    - this may fit with a future for the Boxster line which moves down-market  to 4-cyl engines; ie. Boxster and a coupe of this if built would be the econo-affordable line

    - use a fuller range of Porsche engines including the GT3 engine etc, or eventually new drive technology; ie be the technology leader for Porsche - imagine a mid-engine 918-style car at perhaps a 911TT price point with the GT3 engine and PDK box...

    There is my design direction for Porsche (PAG don't worry  my commission is very cheap... Smiley )

     


    --

    2010 Audi S5,  2002 M Coupe


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    4trac, ^^these are interesting ideas and I am certain that the Cayman has great potential BUT... How could you have the Cayman and 911 moving along in parallel with comparable performance?

    If the Cayman becomes the Baby-918, and I do believe that it has tremendous performance potential, how do you differentiate it from the 911 market-wise? 

    Once they both have comparable performance, is the only difference between them that one is a four-seater? Unless you look at the GT3, which is also a two-seater?

    And if you pump the same tech into the Cayman as in the 911 and it starts to out-perform the 911, as a mid-engine has the potential to, do you just drop the 911?

    The Cayman is a very interesting "problem", how should it be positioned?


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    racerx:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:
    FFaust:
    2010 Porsche 918 Spyder inspiration...

    ...the Porsche 917 was a truly awesome racing car!

    Smiley SmileySmiley SmileySmiley

    Thank you. The 917 engine starting video put a huge smile on my face... I swear i could smell the fumes in my office Smiley


    Then you should have watched it when I posted it last year

    http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20130879/Re_The_Terminator_and_his_cars/page1.html#p20130879

    or some real old history, but Porsche history nonetheless

    http://www.rennteam.com/forum/thread/20092790/history_to_know/page1.html

    Sorry man, I wasn't around these parts back then Smiley

    That Auto Union V16 Waaaooowww SmileySmileySmileySmiley


    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    The Cayman is more expensive than the Boxster, and not really faster... Of course it doesn't sell well...


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    FFaust:

    4trac, ^^these are interesting ideas and I am certain that the Cayman has great potential BUT... How could you have the Cayman and 911 moving along in parallel with comparable performance?

    If the Cayman becomes the Baby-918, and I do believe that it has tremendous performance potential, how do you differentiate it from the 911 market-wise? 

    Once they both have comparable performance, is the only difference between them that one is a four-seater? Unless you look at the GT3, which is also a two-seater?

    And if you pump the same tech into the Cayman as in the 911 and it starts to out-perform the 911, as a mid-engine has the potential to, do you just drop the 911?

    The Cayman is a very interesting "problem", how should it be positioned?

    FFaust; my thinking is partly informed by this forum, since you have many here who love the 911 formula and would buy no other Porsche (hola Carlos Smiley  ) and you have others here who value Porsche technology but who think the 911 formula is just too old (Nick & others...).  For this reason I think there is not a huge risk of cannibalization of 911 sales as the market audiences are simply different people.   The baby-918 idea, if well enough done, could capture people interested in Ferrari-type tech. and character, but at a lower price and without needing to deal with the preferred-customer problems of new Ferrari buyers.  

    But.. I will admit that I would never believe that a mid-engine car can sell in the numbers of the 911.... all mid-engines sacrifice some real-world usability to some extent and the 911 space configuration remains a huge advantage here ie. the family-friendly or wife-friendly sports coupe.  The Audi R8 might  be seen as a test of a mid-engine lineup in parallel with the 911... and I don't know enough of its sales numbers  to make a guess as to whether Porsche planners would consider the R8 a success or not. 

     


    --

    2010 Audi S5,  2002 M Coupe


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Given the choice, I would choose the 911 classic design over the 918 Spyder design.  While I always prefer the "latest and greatest" I admire the honed and classic 911 design over all automotive designs, be they Aston Martin, Ferrari, Lamborghini or Bugatti.  This is a proven design and marketing formula that has demonstrated success over time.  Porsche will ALWAYS have the 911 design as long as it sells in acceptable volume.  Time will tell if this stragegy holds up.  So far it has...................Smiley


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Hey Nick,

    Trying your thought experiement out on myself: If the choice were 918-style or 911, with equal mechnical specification (just assuming that were possible), I would be drawn more to the 918, but not with a $15K price delta. I'm not rich enough to ignore that.

    I love the 911 form, and I do believe those that say they would prefer it, but for me, the 918 form is even more attractive.

    Although there are many influences embodied in this car, one that I'm reminded of is the RSK (718 BTW!)

    718 rsk.jpg

     

    porsche718rs60spyder.jpg


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

     nberry: How long can Porsche push the engineering and not the styling angle to sell cars?

     

    Isn't there an option to block... ah, there it is: IGNORE USER.

    PERFECT!


    Re: Porsche surprise in Geneva - concept of CGT succesor ?

    I believe Mauer is still the chief designer.

    Some have asked about the color.  To me it appeared darker and more brown/silver than arctic.  Very attractive.  And believe it or not, the lime green trim looked fabulous with the color.

    There were some cool little lapel pins available.  Plastic, but destined to appear in future memorablilia displays. 


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    FFaust:er?

    And if you pump the same tech into the Cayman as in the 911 and it starts to out-perform the 911, as a mid-engine has the potential to, do you just drop the 911?

     

     It probably doesn't cost Porsche much more to build a 911 vs a Cayman , but with the former's brand image, it sells for 30-50% more . So the manufacturer's  profit margin is much higher , as has been the sales volume despite this higher price point.

    So if either were to be " dropped " , it's obvious which one goes .

     

    If I were a Porsche exec and VW higher ups mandated just two volume sports cars , I'd have an entry level 550 Spyder- influenced range with the front end cribbed from the 918 Spyder ( think Mazda MX-5 size with Lotus Elise nimbleness and lightness and weighing 2500 lbs ) selling for $45-60K max ( not $60-80K for typical Boxster/Cayman ) and the 911 series at the $90K plus range .  People forget that the current Boxster /Cayman range are relatively large and heavy cars - they are only 3-4 inches shorter than a 911 and weigh well into the low 3000 lb range.You also can't tell a Boxster much from a 911 when it's coming towards you .

    Then Porsche  can tout  a " greener " sports car range  with outstanding handling/transient response and usable  acceleration due to light weight , while selling "HP" to the 911 buyer.


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    MKW:
    FFaust:

    And if you pump the same tech into the Cayman as in the 911 and it starts to out-perform the 911, as a mid-engine has the potential to, do you just drop the 911?

     

     It probably doesn't cost Porsche much more to build a 911 vs a Cayman , but with the former's brand image, it sells for 30-50% more . So the manufacturer's  profit margin is much higher , as has been the sales volume despite this higher price point.

    So if either were to be " dropped " , it's obvious which one goes .

     

    Of course, and I'm not suggesting for one minute that they should ever drop the 911... unless it stops selling.

    When customers buy a car, they are buying a package of attributes: Performance, looks, styling, image and oh yes, transportation. They are buying a means to fill a need (real or perceived); when you buy an electric drill, you really are buying a means to make a hole.

    Although tradition and and history are factors, they are not enough to sell cars on their own nor are they enough to sustain a model.

    If the gap in the attributes (performance, looks, etc) of the Cayman and 911 narrows so much that you end up with two very similar cars that now target the same potential customer, you risk making one of these redundant, tradition or not. The better valued one wins in this case... but value is a very personal thing.

    I have not driven the Cayman but have driven the Boxster and it is a sweet, sweet driving auto. Porsche has a damned good platform to keep moving forward with, we'll have to wait and see where they decide to take it.

    I personally do not like the looks of the Cayman but fix that, give it an extra 50+ hp and a few extra goodies and all of a sudden, it becomes much harder to pick between these two cars. I don't care where the motor sits in relation to the rear axle but I do care about the fun-factor and for now, that big a$$ 911 is still pretty hard to beat.

    Sorry about the rant, it's a beautiful day out here so I'm going for a drive Smiley

    FF
    --

    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    FFaust:
    MKW:
    FFaust:

    And if you pump the same tech into the Cayman as in the 911 and it starts to out-perform the 911, as a mid-engine has the potential to, do you just drop the 911?

     

     It probably doesn't cost Porsche much more to build a 911 vs a Cayman , but with the former's brand image, it sells for 30-50% more . So the manufacturer's  profit margin is much higher , as has been the sales volume despite this higher price point.

    So if either were to be " dropped " , it's obvious which one goes .

     

    Of course, and I'm not suggesting for one minute that they should ever drop the 911... unless it stops selling.

    When customers buy a car, they are buying a package of attributes: Performance, looks, styling, image and oh yes, transportation. They are buying a means to fill a need (real or perceived); when you buy an electric drill, you really are buying a means to make a hole.

    Although tradition and and history are factors, they are not enough to sell cars on their own nor are they enough to sustain a model.

    If the gap in the attributes (performance, looks, etc) of the Cayman and 911 narrows so much that you end up with two very similar cars that now target the same potential customer, you risk making one of these redundant, tradition or not. The better valued one wins in this case... but value is a very personal thing.

    I have not driven the Cayman but have driven the Boxster and it is a sweet, sweet driving auto. Porsche has a damned good platform to keep moving forward with, we'll have to wait and see where they decide to take it.

    I personally do not like the looks of the Cayman but fix that, give it an extra 50+ hp and a few extra goodies and all of a sudden, it becomes much harder to pick between these two cars. I don't care where the motor sits in relation to the rear axle but I do care about the fun-factor and for now, that big a$$ 911 is still pretty hard to beat.

    Sorry about the rant, it's a beautiful day out here so I'm going for a drive Smiley

    FF
    --

    Slow In, Fast Out

    Too much has been wriitten in the past 13 years about how the Boxster and 911 are more alike than different . I propose they have two sports car lines so far apart in pricing and  core attributes  that the endless " you can get a base 911 for the price of a loaded Cayman S " type threads can finally be retired. That kind of " analysis by paralysis " by cross shoppers doesn't serve Porsche,  in the end.

     

     

     


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    I'll drink to that


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    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Agree with Nick here, on current 911 design. IMHO, It does look a bit old/weak, compared to the other exciting models in the range.  Even the Boxster Spyder seems to be giving new styling cues for future models. I told Mauer my view that the design looked dated, and while he agreed, I did not get the sense the new  design would be substantial.  He said he was satisfied with the new design, and everyone's view of substantial change is different, but I get the feeling (as RC has indicated) that the change will be evolutionary, and  not be enough for me to be super enthusiastic. Like you, I hope for some new 911 styling cues, based on the new Spyder.

    Nick, on the price of the 918 Spyder, all indications are that it will be in the CGT range (440K).  I posted earlier that a friend has already sent an indication of interest into PCNA for a car, and he is a former CGT owner who drives his supercars but found the CGT clutch to be unmanageable for daily use.  He views the Spyder as the best of the supercar bunch and he owns or has owned an SLR, 458, Murcielago, etc.  Too expensive for most, but a good niche for Porsche most likely.  The McLaren SLR was not successful ( production discontinued well short of planned number), and resale value is poor compared to CGT. 


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    FFaust:

    I'll drink to that

     And I'm sure the two ENGINEERING  development teams of a realigned sub-Boxster /911 range would have more fun maximizing each line rather than being perpetually ( and understandably ) constrained by MARKETING dept as  they have these past years

    A lot of this depends , ultimately, on what the VW people want in terms of platform sharing  across their many brands .


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Oh to be a fly on the wall for those strategy meetings 

    As far as the 911 design is concerned, yes it is dated (a bit ) but it is timeless nonetheless and CAN NOT be changed. This is  not a romantic notion but rather a very practical issue as it is tied to the mechanical design of the car (remember "form follows function"). But it could and should be TWEAKED and maybe sharpened a bit. Maybe this is what RC means when he says that the 991 will be pleasing but only really noticeably different in the headlamp and tail lamp areas.

    This is not to say that it should become outrageous or flashy, just ergh... a bit nicer. For instance, the front bumper could certainly be improved... (yeah I know, the 997.2 is better)

    (shameless insertion of my car here to illustrate, sorry )

    IMG_1454.JPG


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    Slow In, Fast Out


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    2010 Porsche 918 Spyder...

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Peek Inside Porsche’s Super Hybrids...

    Porsche-918-Spyder_Wired-01.jpg

    - Article by Jason Paur for Wired

    (5 March 2010)

    It’s become clear Porsche is all-in with hybrids. The company rolled into the Geneva Motor Show with the 918 plug-in hybrid supercar concept, which followed right on the bumper of the 911 GT3 R Hybrid slated to compete in the 24-hour race at the Nürburgring. For the faithful fearing the dilution of a company built on a reputation for racing, fear not. Porsche is experimenting with hybrids, but it isn’t looking to chase Prius market share.

    If the performance figures Porsche’s claiming don’t convince you of that, perhaps a look under the body will. The designers from Zuffenhausen, Germany, have released several cutaway drawings, more details and a video showing the 918.

    Porsche-918-Spyder_Wired-02.jpg

    First, we need to note that all of specs and performance figures are claimed specs and performance figures provided by Porsche — no one’s actually driven the cars. That said, the company is famously conservative with its claims, and the 911 GT3 R Hybrid is headed for the track, so we’ll know soon enough if that car measures up to the hype. 

    The gorgeous 918 Spyder could be called a plug-in version of the amazing Carrera GT with a few differences. It pairs an electric drivetrain with a mid-mounted V8 engine derived from the 3.4 liter V8 used in the RS Spyder race car. Porsche claims the engine in the 918 produces more than 500 horsepower at 9,200 rpm.

    The electric drive uses a liquid-cooled lithium-ion battery pack located behind the seats. Of course, there’s regenerative braking to send energy back to the pack. The electric motors and V8 send power to the rear wheels through a seven-speed Porsche-Doppelkupplungs-getriebe (PDK) gearbox. Up front, the power hits the wheels through a fix transmission ratio.

    The 918 has four driving modes: E-Drive is purely electric and provides a range of about 16 miles. Hybrid Mode relies upon the motors and engine in parallel like other hybrids as circumstances dictate, and it has to be the mode for which Porsche claims the car gets 78 mpg. Sport Hybrid mode ups the performance by relying more heavily on internal combustion. And Race Hybrid is for flat-out fun, Porsche’s attempt to prove hybrids can improve performance and fuel efficiency.

    Flip the switch to Race Hybrid when you’ve got a full battery and you can use a “push-to-pass” button on the steering wheel to get more than 40 percent extra oomph. You’ll get 500 horsepower from the V8 and an additional 215 horsepower from the electric motors. Master the use of the right pedal and boost button and Porsche claims you can go around the ‘Ring in less than 7:30.

    911-GT3-R-Hybrid_Wired-01.jpg

    Porsche is also staying true to its racing roots by building the 911 GT3 R Hybrid. It uses an electrical flywheel power delivery system sitting next to the driver to power the two electric motors on the front axle.

    911-GT3-R-Hybrid_Wired-02.jpg

    Under braking, the electric motors up front will power the flywheel, spinning it up to 40,000 rpm. The kinetic energy of the flywheel can then be used with the push of a button by the driver. If the driver needs a little boost coming out of a corner or for a pass, there will be an additional 162 horsepower available for six to eight seconds. While the flywheel power system does provide a power boost, it can also be used to conserve fuel, something that often is the difference between winning and losing in endurance racing.

    911-GT3-R-Hybrid_Wired-03.jpg

    Porsche begins testing the 911 GT3 R Hybrid soon to prepare for its racing debut at the 24 Hours on the Nordschleife on May 15 and 16. Porsche is hedging its bets by saying the focus will not be on winning the race but testing and developing the technology. But Porsche likes winning, so we don’t suspect it will tip-toe around the 15.8-mile course.

    The following video is a compilation describing the technology in the Porsche 918 Spyder and the Porsche 911 GT3 R Hybrid racer...

    Porsche-Super-Hybrids_Wired-article-link

    Smiley SmileySmiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    I'm sorry ,but the article claims that no one has actually driven the cars. This is simply inaccurate! No one has perhaps driven the 918 around the ring, but we have already seen film of the GT3 R hybrid being driven by Roman Dumas.

     


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    2010 Porsche 918 Spyder hybrid concept...

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    2010 Porsche 918 Spyder at the Geneva Motor Show...

    ...with commentary from Car and Driver...


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Interview with Michael Macht at the 2010 Geneva Motor Show...

    ...in German...


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

     

    Dream 918.jpg


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    looks kind of like the boxster speedster tent concept roof line behind the driver.


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 
    _____________________________________________________________________
    1984 BMW 323i 5spd 2.3L 141 hp (105 kW) More door. Black on black (parting out) 
    1986 BMW 325e 5spd 2.7L 121 hp (172 lb·ft) Le Mans Blau on Tan leather.
    1986 BMW 325is 5spd 2.5L 168 hp (164 lb-ft) White on Tan leather (parted out) 
    2005 Ford Focus S, 5spd 2.0L 136 hp (120lb-ft) CD silver on grey (sold)
    1986 Porsche 944, 5spd 2.5L 150 hp (168lb-ft) champagne gold on grown leather. (sold)


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    ...but much harder on the head!


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    nice!!!!


    --
    ALL PORSCHE ARE REAL PORSCHE!!!

    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Interview with Michael Macht at the 2010 Geneva Motor Show...

     

    ...in German...

    Some more info from "Autocar" including "Porsche will build 918" news(?).

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/News/NewsArticle/AllCars/248018/

    I have noted that the 918 took 5 months from drawing board to show car, so apparently it's a project from the new Porsche/VW leadership Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Porsche 918 Spyder at Geneva... (Chris Harris)

    The 918 Spyder Coupe will be a stunning road car...

    2013-Porsche-918-LH-Coupe_Le-Mans-01.jpg

    2013-Porsche-918-LH-Coupe_Le-Mans_Gulf.jpg

    2013-Porsche-918-LH-Coupe_Le-Mans_Martini.jpg

    2013-Porsche-918-LH-Coupe_Le-Mans_Hippie.jpg

    2013-Porsche-918-LH-Coupe_Le-Mans_Flying-Lizard.jpg

    ...and an awesome Le Mans racer!!!

    2013-Porsche-918-LH-Spyder-GT1_Forzamotorsport-link_RS-Spyder15

    Smiley SmileySmiley SmileySmiley


     
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