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    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Just saw the same in the Austin paper. Doesn't look pretty. Everyone's pulling back.

    Almost a year from a race premiere, Austin's $300 million project to bring international Formula One racing to the United States ground to an unexpected and perilous halt Tuesday.

     

    Key investors in Circuit of the Americas said they are immediately and indefinitely suspending construction of the 3.4-mile racetrack just southeast of Austin, a move that idles about 300 workers.

    Also, Texas Comptroller Susan Combs announced a change in plans to provide a $25 million a year in state financial incentives to the project, saying a first payment would not be made until after the initial F1 race is held as currently scheduled on Nov. 18, 2012. Previously, it was thought that the payment could be made at any point up to a year in advance of the race.

     

    Circuit investors, including San Antonio billionaire Red McCombs and local businessman Bobby Epstein, said construction was halted because they have yet to obtain the rights for the F1 race from promoter Tavo Hellmund.


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    It's heartbreaking. It looked like potentially a very good circuit. F1 in the USA is going through some tough times. This was the last thing F1 needed.


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    According to Bernie, the race is already toast.

     

    Bernie Ecclestone has said he is prepared to scrap the 2012 US Grand Prix in Austin after revealing there is no longer a valid contract to run the race.

    It emerged this week that construction at the brand new circuit had ground to a halt amid contractual dispute between promoters Full Throttle Productions and the Circuit of the Americas (COTA). But Ecclestone has now revealed to the Press Association that the original race contract, issued to Full Throttle Productions, has been cancelled and that he is waiting on COTA to prove it has the money to pay for the race before he issues another.

    "We've done everything we bloody well can do to make this race happen," Ecclestone told the Press Association. Asked if it could be dropped ahead of a meeting of the World Motor Sport Council on December 7, where the 2012 calendar will be ratified, he added: "Yes, it will be, for sure, 100%."

    "We had an agreement with Full Throttle Productions," Ecclestone explained. "Everything was signed and sealed, but we kept putting things off like the dates, various letters of credit and things that should have been sent, but nothing ever happened.

    "Then these other people (COTA) came on the scene, saying that they wanted to do things, but that they had problems with Tavo. They said they had the circuit, and that they wanted an agreement with me. I told them they had to sort out the contract with Tavo, which they said they would.

    "But that has gone away now because we've cancelled Tavo's contract as he was in breach. We've waited six months for him to remedy the breach. He knows full well why we've cancelled. He's happy. But these other people haven't got a contract. All we've asked them to do is get us a letter of credit.

    "We are looking for security for money they are going to have to pay us. That is via a letter of credit, normally from a bank. If people don't have the money they find it difficult to get the letter of credit, and so we don't issue a contract."

    http://en.espnf1.com/f1/motorsport/story/64579.html


    --
    FERRARI RULES!!!

    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Bernie is just waiting for a bigger bribe!


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Bernie is getting old and so is F1!

    Lets face it.  F1 today is reminding me of the Indy F1 race when three teams raced (when the Michelins fell apart) - people got their money back or free tickets for the next year.  F1 never recovered (and I stopped buying Michelin tires)

    Follow me here - F1 is devolved to the following!

    Mercedes - three teams - 6 cars 698 points so far this year,

    Renault - three teams - 6 cars 679 points so far and

    Ferrari - three teams - 6 cars 436 point so far this year. 

    If you take away Cosworth - 3 teams ran that engine and garnered 5 points so far (Williams) you basically have a three team circle jerk!  Renault is not even sold in the US, nobody drives a 'Cosworth' and very few drive a Ferrari or can relate to it - so we have a Mercedes racing series - you wonder why it is not catching on in the US and dying off elsewhere!  Mercedes does not even sell a sports car, give me a break! 

    Who has left over the years - Porsche, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Peugot, Lambo, countless others - who can name them all?  The sandbox is getting more expensive and the players have long since gone home.  Game over.  Time to start a new series.

    Austin is dead, we have seen it too many times - NY is just another pipe dream only worse, much worse.  IMHO Austin had a much better chance than NY has. 

     


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    F1 is "dying off elsewhere"?  Wow, that's news to me.  Someone should tell the growing millions of fans around the world who watch Grand Prix races every second Sunday.

    The gist of your argument seems to be that people (or should that be people in the US?) can't relate to F1 because they can't buy (or relate to) most of the cars represented by the engine manufacturers - at least I think that's what you're saying.  That begs an obvious question.  Is it any different in IndyCar?  Or maybe in NASCAR, where the only resemblance between a "Toyota" on an oval track and a "Toyota" you can buy at a dealership is the name? Smiley

    If we were to apply these criteria to racing series around the world, the only ones which would have a valid claim for existence would be the GT classes of sports car and endurance series (ILMC, ALMS, Grand-Am, GT1, GT3, etc) and the various touring-car series (WTCC, BTCC, DTM, Pirelli World Challenge, V8 Supercars, etc).


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Leawood911:

    Bernie is getting old and so is F1!

    Lets face it.  F1 today is reminding me of the Indy F1 race when three teams raced (when the Michelins fell apart) - people got their money back or free tickets for the next year.  F1 never recovered (and I stopped buying Michelin tires)

    Follow me here - F1 is devolved to the following!

    Mercedes - three teams - 6 cars 698 points so far this year,

    Renault - three teams - 6 cars 679 points so far and

    Ferrari - three teams - 6 cars 436 point so far this year. 

    If you take away Cosworth - 3 teams ran that engine and garnered 5 points so far (Williams) you basically have a three team circle jerk!  Renault is not even sold in the US, nobody drives a 'Cosworth' and very few drive a Ferrari or can relate to it - so we have a Mercedes racing series - you wonder why it is not catching on in the US and dying off elsewhere!  Mercedes does not even sell a sports car, give me a break! 

    Who has left over the years - Porsche, Honda, Toyota, BMW, Peugot, Lambo, countless others - who can name them all?  The sandbox is getting more expensive and the players have long since gone home.  Game over.  Time to start a new series.

    Austin is dead, we have seen it too many times - NY is just another pipe dream only worse, much worse.  IMHO Austin had a much better chance than NY has. 

     


    ROFL Smiley

    I think the only opinions I agree with are that Bernie is getting old and Austin is dead.

    Your analysis reduces the issues to an extent that is IMvHO insupportable and then you form conclusions based on that over-extrapolated analysis.

    Nice try my friend - and it's a good laugh - but come on, you can't be serious with this one Smiley


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Easy -
    I would hate to think that somewhat modest observations and opinions would be responded to with such ridicule.  It makes it much less fun to contribute to this forum.  Perhaps it is an anti Kansas bias (lol) - let me remind you all that I am as European as any of you (rotfl).  You state my conclusion is not supportable and that my analysis is over-extrapolated.  Those are harsh charges, almost like 'over-extrapolated' was the word for the week and you are just trying to use it in a sentence.  All I did was list the points totals for each engine manufacturer, and some of the MANY names that used to be in the sport.  What a shame it is that so many are gone... can't be good for the sport or the viewers.  How is that so wrong?
    There is no denying F1 is not working in the US.  It is also a fact that F1 is down to 3 engine suppliers (I never said I liked or followed indycar or NASCAR).  NOT counting Cosworth who are there to pad the field.
    I liked it much more when all the others I mentioned were part of the sport.  That is what we are paying for.  Do you think the sport is better off with just three engines (flavors)?  Who would like to list all the past manufacturers?
    I think my points are very simple, based in fact and logical - hardly controversial.  The sandbox is getting more expensive, there are fewer players and there is not as much value for the spectators as in the past.  I have watched all the US GP die off, I have watched Canada struggle, don't get me started on my home Austrian GP, look at Turkey, look at the dozens of cities who have tried (spent millions) and failed to get enough money (hence interest) to run a race.
    F1 has become an elite circus (for a long time now).  While there is no question it is the current pinnacle of motorsports I think management has held back much of the potential, prevented easy entry into the sport and driven up the cost to the fans.  There is NO QUESTION I am one of the biggest F1 fans in the US, I totally love the sport.  I watch every minute of practice, qualy and race live on TV regardless of the time of day - with live timing and scoring by my side.  In my home theater I have been running an F1 simulator for years and know each turn or evey track having spent 1000's of hours racing and setting up cars.  I have been to dozens of GPs in person all over the world.  My family is friends with many of the old-timers from McLaren racing (Bruce’s personal assistant).  I grew up within earshot of the Oesterreich ring and watched all the legends run there.
    The fact remains the spectacle of the event, the show if you like, is losing its focus.  It is more about money and glitzy cocktail parties.  It should be about making others want to take part in the racing.  Why do you think Porsche is not in F1?  Perhaps they agree with me?
    I certainly respect your opinion and don't question your conclusions - I do think I made my point.
    Cheers,


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Hey Leawood - never meant to offend you - I was engaging in some good-natured ribbing - my point was that you reduced the facts according to the number of engine suppliers in the sport. This IMHO is the wrong lens to look through.

    RBR uses a Renault engine. It is underpowered compared to the Mercedes engine. But, the RBR car has been the stand out car of the field this season. In qualification, in SV's hands, it has been nearly untouchable. In the race, it has been superior in the majority of races.

    This has all been down to vastly superior aerodynamics. Adrian Newey is credited with the car's success since he designed it. No one thinks its superiority is due to its engine.

    So when one comes at this debate from this angle, your argument appears to be starting in the wrong way and then continuing in the wrong direction. That's what I meant by stating my opinion that the way you have reduced the analysis is insupportable and over-extrapolated.

    My view is that engines have become less important in terms of power. They matter now in relation to fuel efficiency (since the entire race fuel load needs to be carried for a full race distance) and there are severe penalties for engine or gearbox changes so reliability is absolutely crucial. The points system rewards consistent finishes so a single DNF can be fatal to one's title chances. Packaging the engine in the right way to help air flow over the rear of the car is vital. Using exhaust gases to increase downforce is key. Even with the ban on blown exhaust gases next year, there are still some minor ways to get downforce from exhaust gases, as Ross Brawn was stating recently.

    IMHO having a slippery shape in the straights while generating downforce through the corners within the limits of the rules is the real name of the game. 

    Buddy, no one here doubts for a moment your knowledge and enthusiasm for F1. We're just chatting ... no offence was meant - my sincere apologies if you felt that way.

    --

    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Fascinating article on the cost of participating as an engine supplier in F1

    http://www.jamesallenonf1.com/2011/11/the-cost-of-competing-in-f1/

    Meanwhile, Bernie issues an ultimatum re the 2012 US GP

    http://www.planetf1.com/news/3213/7314665/Bernie-Sets-US-GP-Deadline

    But COTA are still fighting to host the race ... maybe in 2013.

    http://www.planetf1.com/driver/18227/7313921/COTA-still-chasing-F1-grand-prix
     


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Leawood911:
    Renault is not even sold in the US, nobody drives a 'Cosworth' and very few drive a Ferrari or can relate to it - so we have a Mercedes racing series - you wonder why it is not catching on in the US and dying off elsewhere!  Mercedes does not even sell a sports car, give me a break!


    Leawood,

    what an interesting perspective. I have to admit that I see some flaws in that logic, no matter how jestingly it was intended. First of all, Mercedes does produce a sportscar by now. You also might not have followed the DTM series in the last couple of years where it truly was a two-brand shootout between Audi and Mercedes. Smiley

    I assume you agree with me though that there is too much investment-driven interest in the sport which leads to the situation where it is right now and, in my opinion, explains most of the shortcomings one currently can see right now. To be honest, the biggest on my interest in current F1 has made BBC´s coverage with their indepth analysis and educated commentators. It shows on the other hand that modern motorsport is so much about the details, much more than the common spectator can be informed about and digest.


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    F1, I give up.

    Bernie needs to go. He's beginning to do more harm than good as an owner.


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Heist:

    F1, I give up.

    Bernie needs to go. He's beginning to do more harm than good as an owner.

    I don't know. As far as Austin goes, it's hard to tell what's happening here. It sounds like the local organizers couldn't get their financing, that their "partners" who owned the land and were building the track either couldn't or wouldn't invest in that contract, then they tried to take the contract over. 

    So for all the nonsense that may have been going on from Bernie's side, sounds like this may not have been as real a deal on this end as it was purported to be.

    We may never know.Smiley


    --

    "I don't mean to brag, but I am really good at self-deprecation."


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    Leawood911:

    Easy -
    I would hate to think that somewhat modest observations and opinions would be responded to with such ridicule.  It makes it much less fun to contribute to this forum.  Perhaps it is an anti Kansas bias (lol) - let me remind you all that I am as European as any of you (rotfl).  You state my conclusion is not supportable and that my analysis is over-extrapolated.  Those are harsh charges, almost like 'over-extrapolated' was the word for the week and you are just trying to use it in a sentence.  All I did was list the points totals for each engine manufacturer, and some of the MANY names that used to be in the sport.  What a shame it is that so many are gone... can't be good for the sport or the viewers.  How is that so wrong?
    There is no denying F1 is not working in the US.  It is also a fact that F1 is down to 3 engine suppliers (I never said I liked or followed indycar or NASCAR).  NOT counting Cosworth who are there to pad the field.
    I liked it much more when all the others I mentioned were part of the sport.  That is what we are paying for.  Do you think the sport is better off with just three engines (flavors)?  Who would like to list all the past manufacturers?
    I think my points are very simple, based in fact and logical - hardly controversial.  The sandbox is getting more expensive, there are fewer players and there is not as much value for the spectators as in the past.  I have watched all the US GP die off, I have watched Canada struggle, don't get me started on my home Austrian GP, look at Turkey, look at the dozens of cities who have tried (spent millions) and failed to get enough money (hence interest) to run a race.
    F1 has become an elite circus (for a long time now).  While there is no question it is the current pinnacle of motorsports I think management has held back much of the potential, prevented easy entry into the sport and driven up the cost to the fans.  There is NO QUESTION I am one of the biggest F1 fans in the US, I totally love the sport.  I watch every minute of practice, qualy and race live on TV regardless of the time of day - with live timing and scoring by my side.  In my home theater I have been running an F1 simulator for years and know each turn or evey track having spent 1000's of hours racing and setting up cars.  I have been to dozens of GPs in person all over the world.  My family is friends with many of the old-timers from McLaren racing (Bruce’s personal assistant).  I grew up within earshot of the Oesterreich ring and watched all the legends run there.
    The fact remains the spectacle of the event, the show if you like, is losing its focus.  It is more about money and glitzy cocktail parties.  It should be about making others want to take part in the racing.  Why do you think Porsche is not in F1?  Perhaps they agree with me?
    I certainly respect your opinion and don't question your conclusions - I do think I made my point.
    Cheers,

    Completely second this. The only thing that restored my interest in this sport is this new wunderkind from Germany who is bound to destroy all the records set in F1 till today.

    Smiley


    Re: Tour of Circuit of the Americas

    +1 to that.

    Let's not forget the technological innovation F1 designs bring to EVERY CAR SOLD!!!!!!! Think ABS etc.

    Safety, fuel economy, materials and performance are all tested to the max in F1 and this trickles down to everyday cars


    --

    indeed shifting is ancient technology - so is a fuel burning engine..  I happen to like both :) 


     
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