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    Do you heel and toe?

    Hi,

    I would be actually interested to know if 997 owners practice the heel and toe technique in their everyday life or is it just something for racetracks?
    Also, I'd like to know if this is absolutely necessary to know this technique to be a "good" Porsche driver, taking into account the fact that you don't think of racing your car.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    I have a 996 so don't know if the pedal position is different in the 997 but yes, I heel and toe each time I break and even if not I'm not breaking, whenever downshifting I always give gas in the double declutching process.
    It's not necessary to be a good Porsche driver or a good driver for that matter, but it helps being in the optimum gear when exiting a corner, and it's also much softer on your clutch, it will wear out much slower.
    I personally love it, a nice heel and toe is alywas a great pleasure, you just know when you've hit the right rev

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Fanch said:but yes, I heel and toe each time I break and even if not I'm not breaking, whenever downshifting I always give gas in the double declutching process.



    same here, even when stopping for a light. it's the only way to ingrain the behavior.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    A well executed heel toe downshift is a thing of beauty particularly soundwise and in terms of smoothness powering out of turns. IMHO, heel toe downshifting is mandatory for being a smooth driver with a stick. Notice I say a smooth driver, not a "safe" driver. Good driving means many different things to many people. But, safe driving doesn't imply that the driver knows or can execute this basic maneuver.

    Start by learning to rev match. Don't worry to much about double clutching as modern synchros make this unnecessary. Rev match on the highway by upshiting and downshifting without changing speeds and without the car lurching. Next, with the car parked, try various right foot positions on the brake that will allow for blipping the throttle. Remember that the BRAKE is the most important thing. A missed heel toe is a lot better than losing control of the brake. The most common mistake a beginner has is to increase pressure on the brake while trying to blip the throttle. Try to keep steady pressure on the brake. Soon you'll be heel toeing smoothly and you'll be amazed at how neat it is...Good luck!

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    on the street, it is dangerous to heel toe, because even if you bias your foot to the brake, something may slip.

    very dangerous.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Moogle said:
    on the street, it is dangerous to heel toe, because even if you bias your foot to the brake, something may slip.

    very dangerous.


    I respectfully disagree. Maybe it's because I have size 12 feet or wear different shoes than you, but I've been heel toe'ing on the street for 4 years and I have a 500 mile a week commute. I haven't ever had even a remotely close call because of it. In fact I think I'm a safer driver because I have more control over the car. To me, double declutching is the optional technique because if you don't double declutch, you have syncros to help you out. There are no syncos on the clutch so I don't know how you downshift smoothly without heel toeing. And you if downshift without using heel and toe in a turn you can upset the car which can lead to a spin.

    EDIT: After coming back from a drive I realized some simple things I may have neglected. Ofcourse you can downshift smoothly without heel and toe, you just can't brake at the same time. So you brake, stop braking, then match revs and downshift. I'm still confused by the amount of people in performance oriented cars that don't stress the importance of heel toe. Say you're coming up to a corner and brake down to 2000 rpm. You want to be in the lower gear before you enter the corner and want to get in it while you're braking. If you don't match revs the engine will be still at 2000 rpm while the tranny wants it to be at say 4000 rpm in the lower gear. So if you just let out the clutch without blipping the throttle the engine will be pushed up to 4000 rpm by the tranny and you'll be jerked like someone put on the brakes, you might even lock the rear tires. If you used heel and toe you would have blipped the throttle while braking and be smoothly in the lower gear without a jerk. Once we have perfect paddle shifting gear boxes we won't need heel and toe, but as long as there is a clutch, we will. I think that it's one of those things that if you do it all the time you realize it's actually easier because you can do more with the car, but otherwise you think it's an annoyance. It does become natural. I can't convince you guys to double declutch because with syncros it's not necessary for smoothness (like heel and toe is), but actually even that complicated procedure enables you to shift faster because you don't have to wait for syncros and it's enjoyable.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    I'm interested in learning that technique. If you have any sort of instruction, it would be greatly appreciated.

    Rg Tim

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Heel & toe is quickly becoming a thing of the past and will probably die when DSG comes. I almost never use the heel & toe now. I also don't think the 997 pedals are optimal for it. Well, that's what I think, which when combined with $5 will buy you a small coffee of Starbuck's coffee.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    It may not be "necesary" on the street, on cars (rev matching on sportbikes is if you are braking moderately hard on a large engine sportbike) since you are not trying to gain fractions of a second in corner entry and braking at the last moment but it helps the transmission and clutch (specially when you are driving hard, you can really beat the tranny/clutch on tight corners if you don't), its safe, the shifts are more confortanble and smoother for the occupants and driver, its perfect practice, and most of all its fun!!
    So yes I heel and toe on the street personally, not every time since on some downshifts its point less and there is nothing to match, but I do often as well.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    After reading Carlos's post, yeah I realize heel toe isn't necessary if you just putter around because your downshifts will never be big enough. I just assumed that people drove their cars in a spirited manner sometimes. I don't really see the purpose of the technique as saving tenths (even though it does), it just allows you to carry more speed into a turn and be in the right gear to exit the turn for a smooth highly enjoyable experience. If you don't do it then either the setup for the turn takes a lot longer and isn't pretty to watch or as enjoyable to do yourself (brake really early and downshift before entering) or you're in the wrong gear at exit and have no power, also not fun. Imagine a triple axel in figure skating, heel toe would be skating and then smoothly moving into the technique landing and skating away while not heel toe'ing would be abruptly stopping, jumping in the air, landing and then skating away from a standstill.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    I heel & toe almost always (street & track). It's good for the car to rev-match and heel-toeing is a very helpful technique. I did not know how to do it until after several years of Porsche ownership (I did blip the throttle, but didn't master heel-toe until much later). It's a nice thing to learn - it becomes second nature after awhile and then you won't be able to imagine how you got by before

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    It's good to have a good pair of thin shoes for this :-)
    Like these fashionable PUMAS you see everywhere on teenagers feet :-)
    Much easier then with office leather shoes

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Tim said:
    I'm interested in learning that technique. If you have any sort of instruction, it would be greatly appreciated.

    Rg Tim



    I am new to Porsche (high-perf car) ownership and would like to learn the technique as well.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    on the street, it is dangerous to heel toe, because even if you bias your foot to the brake, something may slip.

    very dangerous.





    Dangerous? I would have to disagree as well. Practice in an environment where you can get comfortable than apply it to the street. It becomes second nature. Its all about being smooth. Once mastered, your transmission will last much longer, maybe the duration of the car ownership. IMO, you are a faster when heel toeing and the looks you get when people hear the revs bellowing...priceless.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    always ,with 997 Audi A3 ...and girlfriend'sFiat punto !
    I love it!

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    i practice heel toe on loaner cars.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Heel & toe is quickly becoming a thing of the past and will probably die when DSG comes. I almost never use the heel & toe now. I also don't think the 997 pedals are optimal for it. Well, that's what I think, which when combined with $5 will buy you a small coffee of Starbuck's coffee.



    I agree. Those that heel and toe on the street are engaging in a practice that is initially much harder on the transmission and clutch. Unless one is very proficient (Ben is) the times you miss revvs is brutal on the car.

    Also, what is the point of using it in street driving? The technique was developed solely for racing and not as many have stated to run the car smoother. Why would anyone need to exit a street corner faster?

    H&T on the street is a useful as changing your oil every 100 miles. Just does not make sense.

    BTW, is heel and toe recommended in the manual? Is it even discussed by Porsche other than in a track setting (PDE)?

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    JP66 said:
    Quote:
    Tim said:
    I'm interested in learning that technique. If you have any sort of instruction, it would be greatly appreciated.

    Rg Tim



    I am new to Porsche (high-perf car) ownership and would like to learn the technique as well.



    I remember seeing a couple of good websites on this a few years ago. I'll try and find them. Hope someone beats me to it as well!

    Porsche Drivers' Education (PDE), either with Porsche of North America or your local Porsche club, is also a good venue to learn H&T. Here's a link to PDE: http://193.175.5.130/english/usa/news/drivingschool/.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Heel and toe is mush easier to exicute in a performance environment than on the street! The reason for this is that you are into very hard braking (threshold) that is not used in everyday driving. It is much easier to roll the foot to acheive the blip under hard braking than modulated sreet braking.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Heel & toe is quickly becoming a thing of the past and will probably die when DSG comes. I almost never use the heel & toe now. I also don't think the 997 pedals are optimal for it. Well, that's what I think, which when combined with $5 will buy you a small coffee of Starbuck's coffee.



    Also, what is the point of using it in street driving?



    well, you know my street driving (bring on the father knows best flaming - not talking to you with that nick). that said, it's very counter-intuitive for someone who has not been doing it but has been driving sticks for a long time. therefore, the best way to make it automatic and intuitive is to do it all the time. i'm trying to get to the point where NOT doing it is counter-intuitive and i think i'm close.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Trundle996 said:
    Heel and toe is mush easier to exicute in a performance environment than on the street! The reason for this is that you are into very hard braking (threshold) that is not used in everyday driving. It is much easier to roll the foot to acheive the blip under hard braking than modulated sreet braking.



    yes, but it's a good idea to at least practice rev matching on the street even when downshifting without braking just to ingrain it.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Also, what is the point of using it in street driving? The technique was developed solely for racing and not as many have stated to run the car smoother. Why would anyone need to exit a street corner faster?

    ***
    BTW, is heel and toe recommended in the manual? Is it even discussed by Porsche other than in a track setting (PDE)?



    Okay, Nick agrees with me. I'm scared. (Just kidding, Nick. You're okay with me.)

    To answer the question, when to use H&T on the street, when the cops are chasing you!

    H&T is done on the 2nd day of PDE in the 2-day course, which I am currently saving my little pennies for if any are left after I do my taxes (or rather after my taxes do me).

    Nick, pardon my taking some of your quotes out of context, but I think the meaning stayed the same.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    JP66 said:
    Quote:
    Tim said:
    I'm interested in learning that technique. If you have any sort of instruction, it would be greatly appreciated.

    Rg Tim



    I am new to Porsche (high-perf car) ownership and would like to learn the technique as well.



    Okay dudes. Found it now that my wife has stopped tasking me. Try this (it's a good one): http://www.ferrariclub.com/faq/heeltoe.html. Enjoy!

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    on the street, it is dangerous to heel toe, because even if you bias your foot to the brake, something may slip.




    I disagree, it's not dangerous as long the primary thing you do is breaking.
    In the 996, I break with front part of the foot, "twist" my ankle, and give gas with the right side of the foot.
    It depends on the pedals arrangement, most of the time a heel and toe is in fact a Heel Hell or pointe pointe like they call it in French.
    True I did learn the process of the heel and toe on track but only for 10 minutes, the rest is just practice and it's not dangerous because, again, the primary fonction is breaking.
    I did learn however double declutching on public road, same here, not dangerous, it's only a danger for you clutch!

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    Trundle996 said:
    Heel and toe is mush easier to exicute in a performance environment than on the street! The reason for this is that you are into very hard braking (threshold) that is not used in everyday driving. It is much easier to roll the foot to acheive the blip under hard braking than modulated sreet braking.



    yes, but it's a good idea to at least practice rev matching on the street even when downshifting without braking just to ingrain it.



    That's true Trundlee996, you're right, but I agree also with Ben, rev matching is a good learning process, and then, you learn how to "modulate" the energy you put into the breaking, it's harder, but so nice when you get it right, one of the nice little pleasure in life;)
    And I'm like Sergini, I do it on every car, although the pedal arrangements make it almost impossible on a VW Polo , still match the revs by double declutching though.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    It may not be "necesary" on the street, on cars (rev matching on sportbikes is if you are braking moderately hard on a large engine sportbike) since you are not trying to gain fractions of a second in corner entry and braking at the last moment but it helps the transmission and clutch (specially when you are driving hard, you can really beat the tranny/clutch on tight corners if you don't), its safe, the shifts are more confortanble and smoother for the occupants and driver, its perfect practice, and most of all its fun!!
    So yes I heel and toe on the street personally, not every time since on some downshifts its point less and there is nothing to match, but I do often as well.



    Carlos replied for me here, I agree guys, in terms of H&T in open roads, because safety is more important than exiting corners quickly, but H&T although primarely optimised for sports, helps also changing gears smoothly and as a result, not as hard on your clutch and transmission in general.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    To the people who say that you don't need to exit corners fast on the street, well of course you don't, just like you don't need to drive a sports car. A corner taken even at moderate speeds can benefit from heel toe, just for a greater fun factor because everything feels right. I guess not all of us drive their cars in a spirited manner, ever. The other issue is that I'm not entirely sure anyone who doubts the technique, has actually truly mastered it. I think anyone that can do it proficiently, would actually do it semi often. No offensive if I'm wrong, there may be experts that have the opinion. I'm not talking to them, I just say don't knock it until you've gone a month doing it everyday. I'd suspect after the month it would be an asset, and not even a remote annoyance.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    To the people who say that you don't need to exit corners fast on the street, well of course you don't, just like you don't need to drive a sports car. A corner taken even at moderate speeds can benefit from heel toe, just for a greater fun factor because everything feels right. I guess not all of us drive their cars in a spirited manner, ever. The other issue is that I'm not entirely sure anyone who doubts the technique, has actually truly mastered it. I think anyone that can do it proficiently, would actually do it semi often.



    Ad Hominem.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Quote:
    Holminator said:
    Quote:
    Yargk said:
    To the people who say that you don't need to exit corners fast on the street, well of course you don't, just like you don't need to drive a sports car. A corner taken even at moderate speeds can benefit from heel toe, just for a greater fun factor because everything feels right. I guess not all of us drive their cars in a spirited manner, ever. The other issue is that I'm not entirely sure anyone who doubts the technique, has actually truly mastered it. I think anyone that can do it proficiently, would actually do it semi often.



    Ad Hominem.



    You caught me, that's why I added the edit. I guess I get so much pleasure from canyon runs, let alone the racetrack, that is directly related to being able to take a corner in a certain way that I wish everyone who owns a Porsche (or any sports car) could experience the same thing. I'm probably misguided, but oh well.

    Re: Do you heel and toe?

    Hard braking at the track or on a mountain road is not the place to be learning for the exactly reason you mention. If something goes wrong, you will not make the corner. It's better to get started in an environment that provides room for error and you can work your way up from there.

    I can understand the folks with F1/sequential interface transmissions laughing at everyone, but it's also a satisfying part of the convential manual shifter. When I master it, then I may go to a gearbox with a sequential interface.

    Nick, Ben, et al,
    Suppose you are driving a standard stick shift Ferrari or other sports car, and not one with the F1 option (bear with me here). How are you approaching turns that require a downshift? Let the clutch out slowly under braking? Downshift post apex? Let the engine pull in a higher gear?

    Just curious as to what the alternatives are for street driving.

     
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