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    Re: I must confess

    nberry:

    One conclusion I have reached is my preference is for Porsche over any other car. The engineering, quality and value is unsurpassed by ANY car manufacturer. 

     

    I can never get used to reading such phrases from you nick, I keep glancing back to the nickname to see if I read it correctly or skipped to another poster's suspicious.gif Smiley

    You may just get your wish, as we know from Porsche management interviews they are seriously considering that mid-engined 458/MP12/Gallardo rival, but in case it gets a green light, it would still be quite aways away from production.


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    Re: I must confess

    Nick, The guys at Sharkwerks.com have what you want.

    They are the real deal and totally reputable.

    Ferraris emit a combo bass treble operatic sound that has a certain musicality as the revs increase on full throttle. Its very nice.

    A TT with sport cats, exhaust and intake mods can produce a very aggressive and snarling sound that some may find to be intimidating. 


    Re: I must confess

    nberry:
    One conclusion I have reached is my preference is for Porsche over any other car. The engineering, quality and value is unsurpassed by ANY car manufacturer.


    Unfortunately that is the sad truth. Well, perhaps it's not that sad at all, since Porsche is a great brand (remains yet to be seen what happens now under VW ownership). But one word about the Ferrari: Ferrari could build the best sportscars on this planet, if they only got the quality of their cars right. Yes, they improved a lot over the last years, but they still lack this type of engineering, quality and value, Nick is talking about (and I even think they are on a way down recently). If this is the Italian nature or whatsoever, I can't tell. Fact is, that this is something that's unacceptable given the price of the cars. Maybe some owners are blinded by the emotional rollercoaster you sometimes get from a Ferrari or that they don't attach great importance to a thing like build quality, but I do. Smiley

    In this respect Lamborghini may get better and better under strict Audi ownership (but hey, it's still an Italian brand... Smiley) and McLaren may benefit from the obsession of a Ron Dennis, so there may be some alternatives for a die-hard Porsche enthusiast like Nick in the future. Smiley


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    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: I must confess

    Rossi:
    Maybe some owners are blinded by the emotional rollercoaster you sometimes get from a Ferrari or that they don't attach great importance to a thing like build quality, but I do. Smiley

    Rather they don't use their cars enough and in the way they were meant to be used,  to find out. How can you rate a car if you do 1.500-2.000 kms in a year?


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I must confess

    Carlos from Spain:
    nberry:

    One conclusion I have reached is my preference is for Porsche over any other car. The engineering, quality and value is unsurpassed by ANY car manufacturer. 

     

    I can never get used to reading such phrases from you nick, I keep glancing back to the nickname to see if I read it correctly or skipped to another poster's suspicious.gif Smiley
     

     

    Smiley We need a new Nick to get some heat into these kind of threads Smiley


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    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: I must confess

    reginos:
    Rossi:
    Maybe some owners are blinded by the emotional rollercoaster you sometimes get from a Ferrari or that they don't attach great importance to a thing like build quality, but I do. Smiley

    Rather they don't use their cars enough and in the way they were meant to be used,  to find out. How can you rate a car if you do 1.500-2.000 kms in a year?


    True as well. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: I must confess

    Stefan,

    You are never going to get a Ferrari with the build quality of a Porsche. They simply make far too few cars in comparison for this to happen. They also don't have the benefit of a large parent who is heavily involved in the volume luxury sector that can transfer technical expertise like Lamborghini has with Audi. Ferrari are hardly going to benefit from tech transfer from Fiat/Chrysler products

    The cars are what they are and I disagree that they aren't improving. My experience has been a marked improvement over the last 10 years and the corresponding reduction in maintenance intervals/costs bears this out. You seem to have more negative views on Ferrari these days. Have you had issues with your 458?

    Rolls Royce and Bentley are two prime examples of tech transfer benefitting very low volume manufacturers. However in both instances the Germanic influence upon the brand is taking away part of the charm each once had and is in danger of turning them into little more than the motoring equivalent of ruthlessly efficient luxury white goods. The drive towards a return on investment by these companies means increased production volumes which in turn leads to a glut of used examples and the corresponding loss of brand exclusivity. Aston Martin is currently suffering from this as a consequence of it's revitalised period of success under Ford ownership and it's rapid increase in sales volumes which have really tested the elasticity of the brand.

    There will always be opposing views on this result of brand integration by large groups. Many posters on here voiced similar concerns with Porsche being swallowed up by VW.

    Nick,

    No matter how much money you throw at an exhaust system on your turbo you will never make a flat 6 engine sound like a flat plane crank V8 as reginos said earlier. That's the trade off you have to make in going for a 911, even the GT3. Buy yourself a Maserati GranTurismo S as a daily if you want a glorious V8 Italian sound clothed in a stunning body and use the turbo for weekend fun. Or, as I suggested a while back, buy yourself an older classic Ferrari or 911 as a weekend toy and get back to basics enjoyment with no driving aids or electronics. My 246 GT is a blast to drive and it's V6 sounds fantastic. It will also appreciate in value 

    Check out this film to see what driving pleasure used to sound like

    www.youtube.com/watch



    Re: I must confess

    ISUK:

    You are never going to get a Ferrari with the build quality of a Porsche. They simply make far too few cars in comparison for this to happen. They also don't have the benefit of a large parent who is heavily involved in the volume luxury sector that can transfer technical expertise like Lamborghini has with Audi. Ferrari are hardly going to benefit from tech transfer from Fiat/Chrysler products

    I don't agree with you totally. I owned a 1980 911 imported used from the UK, until 2002. This car was build at a time when Porsche was a small and rather poor standalone firm, but the build quality and engineering were impeccable and the car drove as near a modern car as there could be. My friend still owns slightly  later examples of contemporary 328 GTS and Mondial 8. These cars are very nice to look at of course,  but very badly built with lots of problems and they drive like the yesterdays cars they are.

    Italy =style and flamboyance, which are very welcome and a joy too

    Germany = substance and thoroughness

    These things transcend time and are national trademarks, whether we like it or not.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I must confess

    The manufacturing world is a very different place now to what it was in 1980 reginos. Back then mass market cars were thrown together as consumers were neither as savvy nor as powerful as they are now. Cars were also a lot less sophisticated then so it was far easier to make a small volume car feel and handle like a quality product. The bottom line is that the big players really didn't bother about quality and were only slowly waking up to it thanks to the reputation the Japanese were starting gain for it.

     


    Re: I must confess

    Iain, I have had my eye on the Grand Turismo S. A nice looking car with a wonderful exhaust.Smiley But I am wary of the build quality.

    Both Stefan and I went from a Ferrari back to Porsche. The difference in the quality of the cars is significant. I understand reasons for the differences. A very experienced Ferrari mechanic (he works for Ferrari) told me that for the most part the customer does the testing of new Ferrari models. They buy, drive and file their complaints. Being a small company without substantial financial backing requires this type of R&D.Smiley

    Reginos, you have a rather warp view of Ferrari owners. Many do not put miles on their cars because they have several cars to drive. I doubt any of us concerned ourselves with the miles we put on the cars. BTW, I had a 430 Yellow Spider and I am not fat or bald.Smiley

     

     

     


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    Re: I must confess

    nberry:

    Reginos, you have a rather warp view of Ferrari owners. Many do not put miles on their cars because they have several cars to drive. I doubt any of us concerned

    Putting around 1500 miles in a year on a car that is all about the pleasure of driving, is too little. No excuses Smiley

    BTW, I had a 430 Yellow Spider and I am not fat or bald.Smiley

    Nick, I had already seen the picture of yourself in the white Turbo that you posted and I knew that you are very good looking and bearing no resemblance to my fictional yellow Spyder owner Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: I must confess

    Nick,

    Both of my GranTurismos had superb build quality I have to say with flawless paint, beautiful leather and no squeaks or rattles. My father also briefly owned one and that was also trouble free and well put together. The man who put the assembly line for this model together was Karl Heinz Kalbfell, ex BMW, so top build quality was high on the list of priorities. I wouldn't hesitate on that front if I were you.

    You have to remember it's a large GT car that rides on the same floorpan as a Quattroporte so it's not a sports car but it is an excellent car none the less. The QP underpinnings makes it a genuine 4 seater which is rare in this segment. It's well worth trying one out just to hear that glorious exhaust in sport mode The great thing is that if you want to drive it discreetly you can in normal mode and the exhaust is much more discreet.

    If I were to have another one I'd go for the S with the auto box in preference to the automated manual F1 box. You still get paddleshift but it's far better suited to the nature of the car.

     


    Re: I must confess

    For the money Ferrari charges, the craftsmanship should match the design engineering.

    They really can't hide behind the excuse of being a small volume manufacture. There are plenty of aircraft and yacht builders in the same price range but with higher manufacturing costs whose products exhibit wonderful crafstmanship without any hidden build flaws.

    Ferraris cost of manufacture leaves them plenty of room to spend two or three hours more on each car, but they simply choose not to because their customers will except any hymn played in the Church of Ferrari.

    And to some extant its likeley that Ferrari intentionally plots to keep its cars service costs high by placing such mundane things as fuse boxes in hard to get to locations that require many of hours of work to access, repair and replace.

    And seeing Orange peel paint on a brand new quatermillion dollar car is just a absolute disgrace. Even the head service guy laughed at it, this on a F458 Italia at Gran Prix Motors in Seattle. Does only Seattle get new Ferraris with bogus paint jobs? I dont think so.

    That said I still like Ferraris, I'd just never pay them what they ask for one.

     


    Re: I must confess

    ISUK:

    Stefan,

    You are never going to get a Ferrari with the build quality of a Porsche. They simply make far too few cars in comparison for this to happen. They also don't have the benefit of a large parent who is heavily involved in the volume luxury sector that can transfer technical expertise like Lamborghini has with Audi. Ferrari are hardly going to benefit from tech transfer from Fiat/Chrysler products

    The cars are what they are and I disagree that they aren't improving. My experience has been a marked improvement over the last 10 years and the corresponding reduction in maintenance intervals/costs bears this out. You seem to have more negative views on Ferrari these days. Have you had issues with your 458?


    Iain, I strongly disagree here. Ferrari earns a hell of a lot of money with each car. They have fantastic engines, which belong to absolutely best engines on the market. They have superb chassis technology and they put together the best parts for their cars, like tranny, brakes and so on.

    Yet they can't build high quality cars! Smiley

    It's not the aforementioned R&D from the customers that I criticise here, nor a lack of technical expertise.It's their laissez-faire when it comes to the quality details, which may not be important for the reliability of their cars, but which are an absolute PITA for the owner. Heck even Maserati builds cars with better quality nowadays!

    In fact my 458 had poorer build quality than my 430, that's why I said I think the quality of F cars is on the way down again (since Schumacher left BTW). You may be luckier with your car or you just overlook the typical Italian "way of manufacturing". But I'm not willing to accept a poor paint quality, misfitting parts in the cockpit, bad rubber seals in the doors, the poorest carpeting work I have ever seen in a car and a disregard of small quality details which I would approve in a Fiat Uno maybe, but never ever in a 200k+ sportscar. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: I must confess

    Stefan,

    I'm sorry to hear you've had so many issues with your car. I'd have been tempted to reject it had I suffered that many faults.

    I've not had any of the issues you mention apart from a poorly masked separation line in the right hand side upper air intake beside the rear quarterlight window where there was red overspray into the area that should be completely black. I had zero build issues on my California and the paint finish on that was excellent. My second 458 is due within the next week or so so I'll see if that is any different and my new Cali should arrive in 6 weeks or so.

    When I visited the Atelier back in May last year to spec my car there were a lot of cars at the end of the production line in the area they use to rectify build quality issues. At that point the factory was only a few months into regular production of the 458. On my trip back this year in early February to see the FF there were only two cars in this area so perhaps that's an indication that early production problems have been sorted out

     

     

     


    Re: I must confess

    Iain, I was not aware of the facts you cite regarding Maserati. Very interesting.Smiley 

    I must tell you I have been VERY impressed with Porsche.


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