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    Re: TSLA is a zero

    MKSGR:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

    And while waiting for a recharge - you can reflect on the poor suspension, steering, brakes etc. of the Tesla. This car is for some tech people from SF who have no clue about high-quality cars Smiley The company will be finished sooner or later.

    And you'd be reflecting on the steering of any other car how exactly? In the context of such a time critical, 300 mile journey, you'd just be on cruise control on the autobahn with the steering wheel positioned straight. You wouldn't have time to enjoy back roads and slow scenic routes considering your tight time schedule.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Bottom line is that ICE and Hybrids AND their infrastructure support just about 100% of peoples use cases of commuting and road trips.  EVs do not yet.  Until they cover 100% of use cases most people with single cars will not buy an EV as their only vehicle.  And stopping for 30 minutes for a super charger and planning around them is way inconvenient.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    thuggy:

      And stopping for 30 minutes for a super charger and planning around them is way inconvenient.

    I really don't get why people keep saying this.

    Stopping at a supercharger for 30 minutes is inconvenient.
    Stopping at a supercharger for 30 minutes once every couple months is not inconvenient.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    We keep saying it because its real.  Here is the difference, you keep looking at averages and life time totals, versus single trips.  For most people, stopping for less than ten minutes at the nearest gas station you can find everywhere is far less annoying than being forced to stop for 30 minutes for charge and planning around super chargers, thats why i added in infrastructure in to the discussion. Imagine if it takes more than one fill up.

    Read this and tell me if you really think for average people that this is acceptable?  They spent 3 hours alone on charging on a road trip that would take a normal car 10 hours.

    http://blog.caranddriver.com/alexander-and-the-improved-not-so-terrible-very-good-tesla-model-s-p85d-road-trip/


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    thuggy:

    We keep saying it because its real.  Here is the difference, you keep looking at averages and life time totals, versus single trips.  For most people, stopping for less than ten minutes at the nearest gas station you can find everywhere is far less annoying than being forced to stop for 30 minutes for charge and planning around super chargers, thats why i added in infrastructure in to the discussion. Imagine if it takes more than one fill up.

    Read this and tell me if you really think for average people that this is acceptable?  They spent 3 hours alone on charging on a road trip that would take a normal car 10 hours.

    http://blog.caranddriver.com/alexander-and-the-improved-not-so-terrible-very-good-tesla-model-s-p85d-road-trip/

    Of course it's acceptable. You're speaking for the perspective of a driving enthusiasts who actually thinks 800 mile road trips are something common. They're not, at all. Also, in that article, they managed to pick one of the few road trips whose ideal route happened to have a gaping hole for superchargers in west virginia. Judging by Tesla's planned map, that hole will be filled in quite soon.

    The average person has a 9-5, 5 days a week, 48 weeks (maybe even more) a year. They can't and don't drive 800 miles more than once a year.

    That said, look how easy it would be to go from Ann Arbor MI to Miami FL. There is a supercharger ever 70 miles and it's typically an over night anyway. Most people aren't trying to drive 800 miles in a single day. Hell, most people don't even drive 800 miles in the first place. They fly and rent a car if needed.

    teststst.JPG


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

    Well, let's think about this for a minute:

    Owning an EV means wasting 30 minutes of your day a few times a year when on long trips.
    Owning an ICE means wasting time every time you need to fill up.

    Who wastes more time over the life of ownership, the guy who can just plug his car in at home in 20 seconds, or the guy who actually has to stop or go out for fuel every week? Even if you live a mile away from the gas station it would take you 5-10 minutes every time you fill up. 

    How about factoring in an oil change every month? That's gotta take at least 15-30 minutes.

    I stop at the gas station once a week, and that's 5 minutes and several stations available on my way to work. I drive 200+ miles trips about twice a week, that's 60 minutes a week changing along the way, though most likely it won't even be along the way since there are few charging places, so 60min + the detour to the nearest changing post. You do the math. Might as well put on an Amish suit and go back to the horse and buggy...

    Oil change every month? Smiley surely you know that oil changes are needed now every 30k or once a year now a days...


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Carlos from Spain:
    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

    Well, let's think about this for a minute:

    Owning an EV means wasting 30 minutes of your day a few times a year when on long trips.
    Owning an ICE means wasting time every time you need to fill up.

    Who wastes more time over the life of ownership, the guy who can just plug his car in at home in 20 seconds, or the guy who actually has to stop or go out for fuel every week? Even if you live a mile away from the gas station it would take you 5-10 minutes every time you fill up. 

    How about factoring in an oil change every month? That's gotta take at least 15-30 minutes.

    I stop at the gas station once a week, and that's 5 minutes and several stations available on my way to work. I drive 200+ miles trips about twice a week, that's 60 minutes a week changing along the way, though most likely it won't even be along the way since there are few charging places, so 60min + the detour to the nearest changing post. You do the math. Might as well put on an Amish suit and go back to the horse and buggy...

    Oil change every month? Smiley surely you know that oil changes are needed now every 30k or once a year now a days...


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     

    Meant to write year. But  hell, taking a Porsche for it's yearly maintenance and fluids will cost you plenty of time as well.

    Besides, you're an outlier. The average is the average. Some are more, some are less, but in the US it's 30 miles per day. Being that mileage can't be negative, even if half the drivers in the world drove 0 miles per day, that would mean everyone else only averaged 60.

    The fact of the matter is that long trips are rare for the majority of people.

    BTW, stopping for 5 minutes 52x a year is over 4 hours of stopping, at least. That's probably not much less than a Tesla owner would spend charging on their once or twice a year longer drives.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:
    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

    Well, let's think about this for a minute:

    Owning an EV means wasting 30 minutes of your day a few times a year when on long trips.
    Owning an ICE means wasting time every time you need to fill up.

    Who wastes more time over the life of ownership, the guy who can just plug his car in at home in 20 seconds, or the guy who actually has to stop or go out for fuel every week? Even if you live a mile away from the gas station it would take you 5-10 minutes every time you fill up. 

    How about factoring in an oil change every month? That's gotta take at least 15-30 minutes.

    I stop at the gas station once a week, and that's 5 minutes and several stations available on my way to work. I drive 200+ miles trips about twice a week, that's 60 minutes a week changing along the way, though most likely it won't even be along the way since there are few charging places, so 60min + the detour to the nearest changing post. You do the math. Might as well put on an Amish suit and go back to the horse and buggy...

    Oil change every month? Smiley surely you know that oil changes are needed now every 30k or once a year now a days...


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     

    Meant to write year. But  hell, taking a Porsche for it's yearly maintenance and fluids will cost you plenty of time as well.

    Not really, its a 10 min drive to the dealer to drop it off and then pick it up in the afternoon, and at 30k its time to change the tires anyway so I take advantage to that to do both normally, don't tell me Tesla's never need their tires replaced Smiley

    Besides, you're an outlier. The average is the average. Some are more, some are less, but in the US it's 30 miles per day. Being that mileage can't be negative, even if half the drivers in the world drove 0 miles per day, that would mean everyone else only averaged 60.

    The fact of the matter is that long trips are rare for the majority of people.

    BTW, stopping for 5 minutes 52x a year is over 4 hours of stopping, at least. That's probably not much less than a Tesla owner would spend charging on their once or twice a year longer drives.

    So I'm not a good example because I take longer drives, but then you take my 52x5min to compare to the average tesla driver?

    A car with 200 miles range is a crippled car. It makes sense only for a few people or as a third or fourth car, as a sidekick to the other ICE or hybrid cars in the garage. EV is far far in the future when those charging and range problems are solved.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Have to agree with noone1 here. I might drive 200 miles instead of fly but the tesla can go 200 miles. 800 miles? Unless it's a road trip where the journey is the most important part I'm flying and renting a car. 

    And if you have little kids you know you're getting out of the car for 30 minutes every 200 or so miles regardless of ev or gas. The vast majority of people's driving can be currently serviced by existing ev technology unless you are a traveling sales person etc. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    I used to put on some serious mileage, but anymore I travel less than a hundred miles a day. Once in a while on the weekend I put on nearly 200 miles. Certainly one of my cars could be battery powered with no trouble.

    I still like the BMW i3 range extender the best though. I just want that tech in a small AWD sedan.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Gladstone:

    I used to put on some serious mileage, but anymore I travel less than a hundred miles a day. Once in a while on the weekend I put on nearly 200 miles. Certainly one of my cars could be battery powered with no trouble.

    I still like the BMW i3 range extender the best though. I just want that tech in a small AWD sedan.

    Exactly, one of your cars... not your only car.  We happen to be the minority where we probably have more cars in our households than drivers... most people do not.  An EV can be one of my cars, not my only car.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    noone1:
    thuggy:

    We keep saying it because its real.  Here is the difference, you keep looking at averages and life time totals, versus single trips.  For most people, stopping for less than ten minutes at the nearest gas station you can find everywhere is far less annoying than being forced to stop for 30 minutes for charge and planning around super chargers, thats why i added in infrastructure in to the discussion. Imagine if it takes more than one fill up.

    Read this and tell me if you really think for average people that this is acceptable?  They spent 3 hours alone on charging on a road trip that would take a normal car 10 hours.

    http://blog.caranddriver.com/alexander-and-the-improved-not-so-terrible-very-good-tesla-model-s-p85d-road-trip/

    Of course it's acceptable. You're speaking for the perspective of a driving enthusiasts who actually thinks 800 mile road trips are something common. They're not, at all. Also, in that article, they managed to pick one of the few road trips whose ideal route happened to have a gaping hole for superchargers in west virginia. Judging by Tesla's planned map, that hole will be filled in quite soon.

    The average person has a 9-5, 5 days a week, 48 weeks (maybe even more) a year. They can't and don't drive 800 miles more than once a year.

    That said, look how easy it would be to go from Ann Arbor MI to Miami FL. There is a supercharger ever 70 miles and it's typically an over night anyway. Most people aren't trying to drive 800 miles in a single day. Hell, most people don't even drive 800 miles in the first place. They fly and rent a car if needed.

    teststst.JPG

    How about this... not acceptable to me.  Also factor in time for driving out of the way to go one of the charging stations.  I don't like turning left into a gas station when I can't turn right and not feel like I'm backtracking Smiley


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    noone1:
     

    And you'd be reflecting on the steering of any other car how exactly? In the context of such a time critical, 300 mile journey, you'd just be on cruise control on the autobahn with the steering wheel positioned straight. You wouldn't have time to enjoy back roads and slow scenic routes considering your tight time schedule.

    Ok, in this case you could also reflect on how the electric energy you are using has been generated. For example, with a nuclear power station close to the Californian shore that might blow up the whole area during the next huge earth quake. Or, alternatively, through a coal burning power station that is less efficient than a modern car engine, even before the efficiency loss inside the car is being taken into account Smiley 

    P.S.: You might also reflect on the latest fatal accidents with Tesla cars, as we were talking about safety features in cars...

    Or the resale value of a Tesla after their bankruptcy...


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:
    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Are you kidding noone, what is the big deal of wasting 30 minutes of your day for nothing? its not about being in a hurry, its about wasting your life in the middle of the road recharging a freaking car. To me its crazy that someone could be fine with that... maybe if I was 80 years old... scratch that, not even then 

    Well, let's think about this for a minute:

    Owning an EV means wasting 30 minutes of your day a few times a year when on long trips.
    Owning an ICE means wasting time every time you need to fill up.

    Who wastes more time over the life of ownership, the guy who can just plug his car in at home in 20 seconds, or the guy who actually has to stop or go out for fuel every week? Even if you live a mile away from the gas station it would take you 5-10 minutes every time you fill up. 

    How about factoring in an oil change every month? That's gotta take at least 15-30 minutes.

    I stop at the gas station once a week, and that's 5 minutes and several stations available on my way to work. I drive 200+ miles trips about twice a week, that's 60 minutes a week changing along the way, though most likely it won't even be along the way since there are few charging places, so 60min + the detour to the nearest changing post. You do the math. Might as well put on an Amish suit and go back to the horse and buggy...

    Oil change every month? Smiley surely you know that oil changes are needed now every 30k or once a year now a days...


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     

    Meant to write year. But  hell, taking a Porsche for it's yearly maintenance and fluids will cost you plenty of time as well.

    Only to bring the car  to the dealer and pick it up later on. Also, I get a loaner for this time.

    Even better with my R8: My sales guy came, picked the car up at my garage, left me a loaner (now I have a RS6 Performance with ABT tuning 700 hp and Akrapovic exhaust Smiley) and when the car is ready, I get it brought back home, fully cleaned and with winter wheels. Amazing.



    Besides, you're an outlier. The average is the average. Some are more, some are less, but in the US it's 30 miles per day. Being that mileage can't be negative, even if half the drivers in the world drove 0 miles per day, that would mean everyone else only averaged 60.

    The fact of the matter is that long trips are rare for the majority of people.

    BTW, stopping for 5 minutes 52x a year is over 4 hours of stopping, at least. That's probably not much less than a Tesla owner would spend charging on their once or twice a year longer drives.

    I agree, in the US for short commutes, ELVs could be quite interesting but the charging problem remains in my opinion.

    Also, I do not know much about the power grid infrastructure in the US but in Germany, we have a pretty modern one and still got issues because of the shut down nuclear plants. The current coal power plants cannot "stabilize" the power grid enough to deal with power fluctuations, so we need special battery tech to do that instead. Pretty complicated. 

    The US will have similar problems with the power grid sooner or later.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    MKSGR:
    noone1:
     

    And you'd be reflecting on the steering of any other car how exactly? In the context of such a time critical, 300 mile journey, you'd just be on cruise control on the autobahn with the steering wheel positioned straight. You wouldn't have time to enjoy back roads and slow scenic routes considering your tight time schedule.

    Ok, in this case you could also reflect on how the electric energy you are using has been generated. For example, with a nuclear power station close to the Californian shore that might blow up the whole area during the next huge earth quake. Or, alternatively, through a coal burning power station that is less efficient than a modern car engine, even before the efficiency loss inside the car is being taken into account Smiley 

    P.S.: You might also reflect on the latest fatal accidents with Tesla cars, as we were talking about safety features in cars...

    Or the resale value of a Tesla after their bankruptcy...

    And also think about the impact of those huge batteries on the environment too, the rare metals they use are mined in environmentally unfriendly mines which dump toxic elements to the environment as a by product not to mention the slavery conditions of the workers in those mines.

    Tesla is in car business because its the first one to try with EV , but the technology is not there yet, that is why its not mainstream and its only mostly Tesla. The problem is when technology becomes more versatile and practical, the big manufacturers will step into EV and that is when Tesla will disappear, there is no way they will be able to compete. The only reason people buy a Tesla is because its EV, if Teslas were ICE like the rest, nobody would buy one! outside the EV properties they are crap. they would be bankrupt overnight. So once the big manufacturers with their R&D and know-how on building cars get into EV, they will be better in other every aspect (quality, interiors, handling, safety, service and dealer infrasctructure, costs, etc) and Teslas will not be the EV option anymore, it will just be a mediocre EV version.

    I'm not saying Tesla as a company will disappear, they will likely diversify into other innovative areas, but as a car maker they will disappear IMO.


    --

     

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    I hate to say Tesla was lucky because I think Elon Musk is a visionary and deserves all the credit for what he achieved. Kudos to him and his work and vision, no doubt about it. However, I do not think that Tesla is going to survive after the big players on the car market are entering the ELV game. If Tesla is clever, they will cooperate but I'm afraid no major car manufacturer would be interested (they already have their own development teams in place and push hard, so why bother to invest money and other stuff into Tesla?) and once BMW, Mercedes, Audi and others start to push ELVs and put interesting (and affordable) models on the market, Tesla is done.

    I do not know if Tesla will go bankrupt but there is a certain risk nobody can deny.

    Unless Elon Musk surprises us again with something new and ingenious, something he holds the patent on, like some revolutionary battery and/or charging technology. Time will tell but to be honest, I wouldn't put my money (anymore) on Tesla and I'm afraid the stock markets will react the same way at some point.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    RC:

     

    Unless Elon Musk surprises us again with something new and ingenious, something he holds the patent on, like some revolutionary battery and/or charging technology. Time will tell but to be honest, I wouldn't put my money (anymore) on Tesla and I'm afraid the stock markets will react the same way at some point.

    It is also fascinating that Daimler sold their 5% (+/-) share in Tesla several years ago. I would expect that an industry insider has good reasons to do so...


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    You guys are hilarious. Do you really think that Tesla doesn't have development teams? That they aren't innovating? I'm not a Tesla apologigst. I don't own one and if I had wanted to I would have bought one. At some point I might buy an EV but then again at some point I think all of us will be FORCED to buy an EV.

    I'll throw out a couple of points though.

    Tesla has a few thousand engineers and over $3B in cash. I think that's more than enough to compete with any of the larger car manufacturers. Especially as they are myopic around EV engineering. 

    The gigafactory, which is under construction, will be the largest battery manufacturer in the world. Lithium production and especially sales is increadibly opaque. Like really really opaque. There is no spot price for instance. My firm has a rare earths/metals banking and research team and we know that Tesla has off-take agreements that make it one of the largest lithium buyers/controllers in the world. You either get lithium through brines or hard rock. One you have to wait years for the sun to do its job, you can't just go get more. The other you have to create a mine and anyone that knows about mining knows that isn't a 2 year operation let alone a two month one. Having the largest battery factory in the world and being one of the largest controllers of lithium in the world for the forseeable future will ensure that Tesla will be a factor in any EV market for at least the medium term (you can talk about graphene etc all you want, it's decades away from commercial applications). Also the 21-70 battery they will be building there is a technically better battery than the panasonic 18650 which EVERY EV in the world uses in its batteries. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Mithras:

     

    Tesla has a few thousand engineers and over $3B in cash. I think that's more than enough to compete with any of the larger car manufacturers. Especially as they are myopic around EV engineering. 

     

    Wrong assumption... The Chines OEMs have far more cash and also far more engineers and still they cannot compete with European OEMs for the next 10 years or so (at least) Smiley This is not about money and people but complex structures and experience in these structures.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Mithras:

     

    The gigafactory, which is under construction, will be the largest battery manufacturer in the world. 

    What if lithium batteries will not be good enough for the mass market EV production? This Tesla factory would a gigantic cash burning device then Smiley


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    MKSGR:
    Mithras:

     

    The gigafactory, which is under construction, will be the largest battery manufacturer in the world. 

    What if lithium batteries will not be good enough for the mass market EV production? This Tesla factory would a gigantic cash burning device then Smiley

    Why would they not be? It isn't rocket science (and Elon employs a lot of those people as well...). Honestly you keep looking for reasons to back up your short, it's not the slam dunk you think. Making batteries isn't all that technically hard, having the material and scale is.

    Do I think they are overvalued? I can't legally answer that but take a guess. Do I think they will go bankrupt because companies that have been around longer (but doing less of what Tesla does and for a shorter period of time) will do it SO MUCH BETTER that it will destroy them? Highly unlikely. Also having a sun to house to car flow of energy though their roof tiles to home battery to car charging to car is a unique and sticky silo. They certainly have first mover advantages and are very well capitalized with a significant amount of bench strength, you might not like it but they will stick around, certainly not as the hegemonic producer but certainly as a major one.


    --

     

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

     


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    RC:
    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:
    noone1:
    Carlos from Spain:

    Even better with my R8: My sales guy came, picked the car up at my garage, left me a loaner (now I have a RS6 Performance with ABT tuning 700 hp and Akrapovic exhaust Smiley) and when the car is ready, I get it brought back home, fully cleaned and with winter wheels. Amazing.

     

    well, You definitely remember ferris bueller's day off garage valet's joyride. just check the milage Smiley 


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Tesla won't disappear any time soon, but it's entirely possible their valuation falls massively.

    I just don't see the technology advantage of Teslas given what we know about modern technology development and product life cycles. A 2016 A4 is a way better proposition than a 2016 3er because the 3er was launched in 2012 and the A4 is brand new. It's not because BMW doesn't have the same stuff ready to go. This is going to happen to Tesla. Technology doesn't develop in vacuum. The introduction of it into cars is usually based on development schedules, not whether it's ready or not. It even happens across models from the same brand. It's why you'll see a base Panamera will a way better dash and infortainment and modern interior than even a top of the line Cayenne or Macan or 911 or whatever. They can't just go change every car half-way into production

    This will happen to Tesla the moment the other companies actually start to produce their EVs. Cars aren't like smartphones that companies have to competitively release year after year, and which have to implement all the same features right away to stay competitive. Cars just naturally get outclassed due to shelf life.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Agree but the Model X is the larger people mover and is new, the Model 3 will be the smaller car and will be brand new with new innovations and then the 5/6 year old Model S will get either a refresh or a new model out of it. People forget that Tesla has really only made two different cars so far. The X is a better car than the S was when it came out, the new S redesign when it comes out will undoubtedly be better than the model it replaces. That is the same for ALL car companies!

    I would argue that Tesla's FIRST car is a better car than any number of other new car companies's first cars. It's still not a fantastic car but it's not a bad car. Tesla certainly isn't Fisker, it's a real company that now makes a lot of cars. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    The thing is though that Tesla actually doesn't have competition yet. It's unknown how Tesla will fair with actual competition. Teslas are selling because they are pretty much the only normal looking EV in it's class.

    The ultimate test is this: If you swapped drivetrains, would a Tesla still sell better than its competition?

    I'm not convinced at all. I see most Tesla sales and 300K Model 3 pre-orders as people who simply want a usable EV that looks normal. I'm not convinced so many people would opt for a Model 3 if you could get a BMW 3er with 200 mile range, or Camry or whatever is in the range, just like I don't think people would opt for a Tesla if it had an ICE.

    If I wanted an EV, I'd really have no choice other than Tesla right now. Personally I don't like the S or X interior whatsoever and that is typically enough for me to avoid buying a car, but there are no other options, so...

    Once you start seeing EV Audis and Toyotas and VWs that look identical to the ICE models, that will be the real test to Tesla demand. If the Q7 E-tron was a full EV at the same price as a Model X (which actually seems possible,) it would be a way better car IMO.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Thats exactly right.  Tesla has a niche space all to themselves right now, that is about to change, most owners I know love the tech and therefore they forgive all the little faults like cheap interior etc.  But they would switch to a Mission E for example when available.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Mithras:
    MKSGR:
    Mithras:

     

    The gigafactory, which is under construction, will be the largest battery manufacturer in the world. 

    What if lithium batteries will not be good enough for the mass market EV production? This Tesla factory would a gigantic cash burning device then Smiley

    Why would they not be? It isn't rocket science (and Elon employs a lot of those people as well...). Honestly you keep looking for reasons to back up your short, it's not the slam dunk you think. Making batteries isn't all that technically hard, having the material and scale is.

     

    Fact is the existing lithium batteries are far from being good enough.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Mithras:

    . Tesla certainly isn't Fisker, it's a real company that now makes a lot of cars... 

    ... and losses.


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    MKSGR:
    Mithras:
    MKSGR:
    Mithras:

     

    The gigafactory, which is under construction, will be the largest battery manufacturer in the world. 

    What if lithium batteries will not be good enough for the mass market EV production? This Tesla factory would a gigantic cash burning device then Smiley

    Why would they not be? It isn't rocket science (and Elon employs a lot of those people as well...). Honestly you keep looking for reasons to back up your short, it's not the slam dunk you think. Making batteries isn't all that technically hard, having the material and scale is.

     

    Fact is the existing lithium batteries are far from being good enough.

    Totally agree, but all the bench tests and new lab discoveries are decades away, battery technology moves very very slowly at the commercial level. EVs will still be using lithium batteries in 2025.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: TSLA is a zero

    Mithras:
    MKSGR:
    Mithras:
    MKSGR:
    Mithras:

     

    The gigafactory, which is under construction, will be the largest battery manufacturer in the world. 

    What if lithium batteries will not be good enough for the mass market EV production? This Tesla factory would a gigantic cash burning device then Smiley

    Why would they not be? It isn't rocket science (and Elon employs a lot of those people as well...). Honestly you keep looking for reasons to back up your short, it's not the slam dunk you think. Making batteries isn't all that technically hard, having the material and scale is.

     

    Fact is the existing lithium batteries are far from being good enough.

    Totally agree, but all the bench tests and new lab discoveries are decades away, battery technology moves very very slowly at the commercial level. EVs will still be using lithium batteries in 2025.

    That is exactly the reason why I believe in the plugin hybrids for the next years - and, consequently, the demise of Tesla...


     
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