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    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Porsche can get away with that because for 60 years, nothing else has come close. They have a monopoly on the truly usable, true sportscar market. It took 45 years before they noticed they had us hanging by the b*lls, but now they have.

    And there is nowhere else to go. The next best thing is the M3, but Bangle hit it with his trademark fat ugly stick.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Groom, It could all end if there was a EU required meter in the insturment cluster that computed cost per hour of use, cost per Km and showed results based on both cost of the car purchased new and its depreciated value.

    Maybe Porsche needs a optional "Money Chrono" button that computes cost of options, vehicle base price and how many times the car does not see its top speed or even get 60mph close to its top speed when driven.

    Look, Porsche is a Love Story. The company used to be able to lay naked on the bed in the daytime. Honest, pure and beautiful with no lies.

    But now its a old greedy broad that has to keep the room dark. And if Porsches keep getting heavier, you will need flour to roll them in to find the wet spot before you drive one.

    And forget BMW, they are less than useless. If you want a sports car, maybe look at a new model Noble.




    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    !!! I wish they brought Corvette's here!



    I'm surprised that chevy doesn't go SA .

    This could be a good sign though.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/23/down-under-gets-first-ever-wrong-hand-drive-z06/



    We have Chevy (Dodge and Cadillac have recently been introduced to the market as well). Just not the Corvettes and Vipers.

    How ever I have seen some RHD Dodge RAM SRT-10's driving around. Don't know if the RHD was aftermarket though.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    I wish they didnt supercharge the engine. Couldnt they have raised it to 650 hp with other mods?

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    !!! I wish they brought Corvette's here!



    I'm surprised that chevy doesn't go SA .

    This could be a good sign though.
    http://www.autoblog.com/2007/02/23/down-under-gets-first-ever-wrong-hand-drive-z06/



    We have Chevy (Dodge and Cadillac have recently been introduced to the market as well). Just not the Corvettes and Vipers.

    How ever I have seen some RHD Dodge RAM SRT-10's driving around. Don't know if the RHD was aftermarket though.



    RHD was most assuredly aftermarket, I'm 99% sure that the Viper has never been offered in anything but LHD and the Corvette has definitely never been offered in RHD

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    James a VERY IMPRESSIVE analysis. Unfortunately your review only looks back. Going forward the paradim has changed but the competition has not stepped in to take advantage of it. I cannot tell how many Porsche owners have told me "I would like to buy something else but what would I buy?" They expressed frustration with the styling and over production. But for the money at least for now they are better off buying the same 60 year old shoe.

    I still believe that Porsche is headed for a rude awakening. Presently they are filled with hubris but in the bushes are car manufacturers sneaking up. Look out for some of the Japanese cars. Their internal agreements to limit hp is slowing fading away. I certainly would consider one if they came ouy with a car like the NSX as they did 15 years ago.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    911fan said:
    I wish they didnt supercharge the engine. Couldnt they have raised it to 650 hp with other mods?



    Sure. Twin turbo's, 20psi boost on a 7 liter engine, good for 800+HP, 800+lb-ft torque.

    But that's probably for the Blue Devil's replacement.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    To me, Porsche is still about only one car-the 911Turbo, the only rear-engined production car with supercar potential, and I even see its marketing into oblivion.

    Ironically, while the Boxster and Cayenne saved the company, and the Panamera is supposed to thrust it further forward, with the exception of the Panamera (and I'm still hesitant on this one given my concenrs about performance, especially given Porsche's recent history with their line-up), I have no attraction for any other Porsche vehicles-not even the 911Carrera.

    And if Audi or others can make sick-fast 4-door sedans with or without aftermarket tweaks, that Panamera for me is highly tentative.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Nick, Porsches future plans are transparent. They will expand their sales and pricing model to the sedan world with the Panamera.

    You have to stop thinking of them as a "car" company and look at them as a supply chain company with products that have wheels.

    They will use their parts sourcing strategy and lean manufacturing capability to make and sell products that fit their special CCF marketing pyschology that applies maximum pressure upon buyers psyches.

    When they meet sales resistance, they will just fine tune content to fit market forces. If the market for their price range or types of vehicles shrinks they can still survive.
    Example. The Cayenne model, as a stand alone business case,
    is profitable with just 10,000 units per annum in sales.

    As for the future of the 911, it will likely go on forever.

    For your friends who are bored with their 911s, I suggest its for reasons other than styling. If they could access their cars performance on a daily basis they would know and appreciate what they bought. A few track days a year or a few runs up to 120mph on a on ramp is not the same as being able to hit 150mph without fear of jailtime.

    So, I think its more of a problem with your friends mentality. They are greedy. They want to own a iconic car, but being unable to exercise it, they feel stumped and flail about wanting something else. Maybe they are rich and useless, self indulgent people. Maybe they should not own a car engineered for 180mph and should get something thats less expensive and donate the price difference to people who just need a car period.

    Really Nick, the rich can be so annoying and selfish in their desires that its no wonder that Porsche uses that against them by planting clever money traps for them.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    Turbo Al said:
    To me, Porsche is still about only one car-the 911Turbo, the only rear-engined production car with supercar potential, and I even see its marketing into oblivion.

    Ironically, while the Boxster and Cayenne saved the company, and the Panamera is supposed to thrust it further forward, with the exception of the Panamera (and I'm still hesitant on this one given my concenrs about performance, especially given Porsche's recent history with their line-up), I have no attraction for any other Porsche vehicles-not even the 911Carrera.

    And if Audi or others can make sick-fast 4-door sedans with or without aftermarket tweaks, that Panamera for me is highly tentative.



    Isn't the 911 the only rear engine car left? I can't think of another

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    bondmid003 said:
    This isn't an insult but you have to realize that GM is alot bigger of an entity than Porsche and its to be expected that they go through ups and downs. Porsche is 'printing money' because it fills its niche well and thats produce sports cars. GM is losing money in my opinion because it is spread so thin across the globe



    Have you compared the market value of Porsche and GM recently? Bigger is not better in this case, I am afraid...

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    bondmid003 said:
    This isn't an insult but you have to realize that GM is alot bigger of an entity than Porsche and its to be expected that they go through ups and downs. Porsche is 'printing money' because it fills its niche well and thats produce sports cars. GM is losing money in my opinion because it is spread so thin across the globe



    Have you compared the market value of Porsche and GM recently? Bigger is not better in this case, I am afraid...



    The ranking of car manufacturers world share for last year was 1.GM 2.Toyota 3.Ford

    I never said bigger WAS better, I said you can't exactly compare apples and oranges which is what comparing GM's and Porche's business models is

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    For your friends who are bored with their 911s, I suggest its for reasons other than styling. If they could access their cars performance on a daily basis they would know and appreciate what they bought. A few track days a year or a few runs up to 120mph on a on ramp is not the same as being able to hit 150mph without fear of jailtime.

    So, I think its more of a problem with your friends mentality. They are greedy. They want to own a iconic car, but being unable to exercise it, they feel stumped and flail about wanting something else. Maybe they are rich and useless, self indulgent people. Maybe they should not own a car engineered for 180mph and should get something thats less expensive and donate the price difference to people who just need a car period.



    I agree with this assesment. The joy of a Porsche is not rewared necessarily on the road, but at the track. Whereas, it is much easier to feel the rewards of a Z06 on the road because of the sheer acceleration/pucker factor.

    The bottom line is that on public roads, bursty acceleration is king and will provide the biggest smiles to an average driver. In my opinion, you can't even take a Mazda Miata to it's cornering limits on the road, let alone a 911 CS. If the average Porsche driver could take their car on a roadcourse, they would have a new appreciation.

    But at the other end of the stick, take a Lambo or Z06 with over 500hp for a drive around town and it will blow your mind. Anyone can take a car for 0-100mph for a short burst and feel excited, but to really know what it's like to take a 60mph curve a 59.999 is something many will never understand.

    I think what Porsche has accomplished with the low HP/displacement the cars have is unbelievable. But in today's big number war and "my stick is bigger than yours" mentality, they are losing the number game.

    The problem is that most people wouldn't even know what to do with 300hp, let alone 500.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    95jersey said:

    The problem is that most people wouldn't even know what to do with 300hp, let alone 500.



    Amen, brother. A soccer mom on her cell phone in an SUV is far more dangerous than any of us.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    I saw this article in Motor Trend.

    "Jim Queen, GM's VP of global product development, has told Motor Trend more about how GM's international car lines will continue to get closer."

    "Queen says the C7 Vette will stick with a naturally aspirated V-8 (at least for the base model) and RWD (not AWD). But power will climb by another significant increment, likely up to around 700 horsepower for the top end model, although Queen would give no specific number. 'We're working hard to get that power onto the pavement,' Queen said, mentioning that weight and weight distribution are the keys."

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_0703_gm_global_product/

    That is nuts, wonder if the Blue Devil is actually the 7th generation? But 700HP?!?! in a 2900lbs car. With such light weight, that may topple the Bugatti.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    95jersey said:
    I saw this article in Motor Trend.

    "Jim Queen, GM's VP of global product development, has told Motor Trend more about how GM's international car lines will continue to get closer."

    "Queen says the C7 Vette will stick with a naturally aspirated V-8 (at least for the base model) and RWD (not AWD). But power will climb by another significant increment, likely up to around 700 horsepower for the top end model, although Queen would give no specific number. 'We're working hard to get that power onto the pavement,' Queen said, mentioning that weight and weight distribution are the keys."

    http://www.motortrend.com/features/auto_news/2007/112_0703_gm_global_product/

    That is nuts, wonder if the Blue Devil is actually the 7th generation? But 700HP?!?! in a 2900lbs car. With such light weight, that may topple the Bugatti.



    It may also topple GM, with all the possible lawsuits. Remember, there are vultures everywhere, just waiting to steal money from a company for not protecting its customers from their own stupidity.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    95jersey said:

    That is nuts, wonder if the Blue Devil is actually the 7th generation? But 700HP?!?! in a 2900lbs car. With such light weight, that may topple the Bugatti.



    700hp in a mediocre car like a Corvette will be a desaster Basically, the car is full of cheap technology. How should the concept work?

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    MK, the Corvette is not a disaster. The technology you call "cheap" happens to work very well. Elegeant interior?
    No. But does a $46,000 400hp base model Porsche even exist? No.

    Porsches over reliance on technology bandaids is a disgrace and shows how desperate they are to keep forcing their square pegs into round holes. PASM, Sport Chrono, etc are just bandages to hide the bleeding wounds of over cooked engineering and bait to attract customers with more wishes than sense. Its technology overkill, unreliable, not robust and doomed to make resale values sink even deeper due to the cost of repairs.

    That said. A 700hp Corvette without AWD will be useless except for sunny days or the track. But that is its market!

    Its not as if the car will be marketed to take the place of AWD Passat TDI's. So don't worry, they won't be taking up floor space at your local VW dealer anytime soon.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Jim, you beat me to the punch.

    The problem with the 'Vette is not its "cheap" technology, actually the car is a workhorse. The problem is a mid-front engine setup with RWD and a demographic market that could have considerable trouble handling this much power on such a layout. GM will tweak the suspension but wheelspin will be a real problem.

    As a comparison, my even lighter Noble M400 (by about 400lb) will have 600-ish RWHP next month, and the other USA owner of a similarly modded M400 (and the tuner) state that we can spin the wheels from acceleration in ANY gear with it if desired, but that car is slightly rear-weighted, and much better balanced than the 'Vette.

    But on the 'Ring, I'll guess 7:30-ish times for the SS.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Al, the SS is destined for collections and tracks. It will be a very low volume cash cow. I doubt if the "people" you meant will even be able to afford the second sticker that dealers will put on them.

    In general, new Corvette buyer demographics are way higher in income than most realize. The car is now cross owned with 997TT and F430 buyers. Thats a new development for Chevy and the Z06 made that happen.

    Close to you is someone who owns a modified 700hp Z06.I don't think you would scoff at his bank account or his driving skills. His name is Mario Andretti.




    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Al, the SS is destined for collections and tracks. It will be a very low volume cash cow. I doubt if the "people" you meant will even be able to afford the second sticker that dealers will put on them.

    In general, new Corvette buyer demographics are way higher in income than most realize. The car is now cross owned with 997TT and F430 buyers. Thats a new development for Chevy and the Z06 made that happen.

    Close to you is someone who owns a modified 700hp Z06.I don't think you would scoff at his bank account or his driving skills. His name is Mario Andretti.







    I take it you mean "close" in proximity (at least his AndrettiFord dealership is just east of Cleveland-where I did my Neurology specialty training-less than 200 miles from where I live now). In terms of bank accounts and driving skills, surely I'm not even CLOSE to Mr. Andretti's level on either accord.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    If you see something red, Chevrolet and fast coming up watch out! I don't think he is ticketable in NY state.
    He owns a horse farm one county away from you.

    FWIW, You deserve all of the fast cars you can enjoy. Enjoy them now before different judgement strikes you. Drs hours are stupifyingly long with even longer paperwork. Just to get there is a not easy. Congrats on your practice and the Noble Monster!

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MK, the Corvette is not a disaster. The technology you call "cheap" happens to work very well. Elegeant interior?
    No. But does a $46,000 400hp base model Porsche even exist? No.

    Porsches over reliance on technology bandaids is a disgrace and shows how desperate they are to keep forcing their square pegs into round holes. PASM, Sport Chrono, etc are just bandages to hide the bleeding wounds of over cooked engineering and bait to attract customers with more wishes than sense. Its technology overkill, unreliable, not robust and doomed to make resale values sink even deeper due to the cost of repairs.

    That said. A 700hp Corvette without AWD will be useless except for sunny days or the track. But that is its market!

    Its not as if the car will be marketed to take the place of AWD Passat TDI's. So don't worry, they won't be taking up floor space at your local VW dealer anytime soon.



    OK, my previous post might have been a little bit harsh

    However: 700hp in a RWD car, without ESP, AWD etc... If I understood correctly, those 700hp will also involve turbo charging which cannot be expected to make the car easier to drive... If you ask me, it is the wrong way to offer 700hp the cheapest way possible (basically, that's the Corvette strategy).

    High-performance sports cars require intense know-how and expertise. GM does not have this expertise. This is one of the major reasons why I would neither buy the Z06 or the Blue Devil for intense use on German Autobahns. I would not feel safe as I don't have the confidence that the people who designed and built the car have sufficient expertise in the high-end sportscar segment.

    I prefer to pay more. And to get a top-of-the-league product

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MK, the Corvette is not a disaster. The technology you call "cheap" happens to work very well. Elegeant interior?
    No. But does a $46,000 400hp base model Porsche even exist? No.

    Porsches over reliance on technology bandaids is a disgrace and shows how desperate they are to keep forcing their square pegs into round holes. PASM, Sport Chrono, etc are just bandages to hide the bleeding wounds of over cooked engineering and bait to attract customers with more wishes than sense. Its technology overkill, unreliable, not robust and doomed to make resale values sink even deeper due to the cost of repairs.

    That said. A 700hp Corvette without AWD will be useless except for sunny days or the track. But that is its market!

    Its not as if the car will be marketed to take the place of AWD Passat TDI's. So don't worry, they won't be taking up floor space at your local VW dealer anytime soon.



    OK, my previous post might have been a little bit harsh

    However: 700hp in a RWD car, without ESP, AWD etc... If I understood correctly, those 700hp will also involve turbo charging which cannot be expected to make the car easier to drive... If you ask me, it is the wrong way to offer 700hp the cheapest way possible (basically, that's the Corvette strategy).

    High-performance sports cars require intense know-how and expertise. GM does not have this expertise. This is one of the major reasons why I would neither buy the Z06 or the Blue Devil for intense use on German Autobahns. I would not feel safe as I don't have the confidence that the people who designed and built the car have sufficient expertise in the high-end sportscar segment.

    I prefer to pay more. And to get a top-of-the-league product



    Markus, when is your birthday? I would like to send you a flame retardant suit, as you'll most undoubtably need it .

    In all seriousness, I think Chevy DOES have expertise (their stint at Le Mans has been quite impressive), but perhaps you're right about high-speed performance. And I definitely agree with you that the car will be next to useless on the street.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MK, the Corvette is not a disaster. The technology you call "cheap" happens to work very well. Elegeant interior?
    No. But does a $46,000 400hp base model Porsche even exist? No.

    Porsches over reliance on technology bandaids is a disgrace and shows how desperate they are to keep forcing their square pegs into round holes. PASM, Sport Chrono, etc are just bandages to hide the bleeding wounds of over cooked engineering and bait to attract customers with more wishes than sense. Its technology overkill, unreliable, not robust and doomed to make resale values sink even deeper due to the cost of repairs.

    That said. A 700hp Corvette without AWD will be useless except for sunny days or the track. But that is its market!

    Its not as if the car will be marketed to take the place of AWD Passat TDI's. So don't worry, they won't be taking up floor space at your local VW dealer anytime soon.



    OK, my previous post might have been a little bit harsh

    However: 700hp in a RWD car, without ESP, AWD etc... If I understood correctly, those 700hp will also involve turbo charging which cannot be expected to make the car easier to drive... If you ask me, it is the wrong way to offer 700hp the cheapest way possible (basically, that's the Corvette strategy).

    High-performance sports cars require intense know-how and expertise. GM does not have this expertise. This is one of the major reasons why I would neither buy the Z06 or the Blue Devil for intense use on German Autobahns. I would not feel safe as I don't have the confidence that the people who designed and built the car have sufficient expertise in the high-end sportscar segment.

    I prefer to pay more. And to get a top-of-the-league product



    Markus, when is your birthday? I would like to send you a flame retardant suit, as you'll most undoubtably need it .

    In all seriousness, I think Chevy DOES have expertise (their stint at Le Mans has been quite impressive), but perhaps you're right about high-speed performance. And I definitely agree with you that the car will be next to useless on the street.



    A fire extinguisher would be even better...

    Re. GM: The problem is that the staff of their racing team does not have much to do with their standard car business. At least I would guess so?

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Re. GM: The problem is that the staff of their racing team does not have much to do with their standard car business. At least I would guess so?



    I don't know, really. Maybe Jim can shed some light on that.

    P.S. Fire extinguisher it is! I'll send one right away .

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    MK, GM's racing group had major involvment in developing the Z06 and does now for the SS project. It is similar to the synergy Porsche Motorsports has with the production of the GT3. For the Z06 project GM even built a copy of the Nurburging in Michigan so home office engineers could do parallel devlopment modifications with their counterparts working in Germany at the Nurburging. They also spent many months testing the cars on the Autobahn for handling, braking, aerodynamics and speed feel.

    The SS testing cars show a supercharger, but we do not know if that is the final engine configuration. GM also has a new alloy 7.2 liter 4 cam 32 valve V8 in development. So the SS engine may be a complete surprise to some. I do know that the new 4 cam V8 has a redline of 8200 rpm and has produced 700hp without supercharging or turbocharging.

    But what engine will end up in the C6 SS I do not know.

    The Ferrari 599GTB is also a front engine/rear transaxle car like the Corvette. GMs biggest supplier -Delphi- had major involvment with the 599's suspension development and even supplies the parts for it. GM and Delphi gave Ferrari a special 2 year exclusive license for those parts. Notice that the SS will be released as a 2009 model!

    The C6 SS model will likely be for 1 year only because the new C7 appears in MY2010. So consider any C6 corvette as soon to be yesterdays news. The C7 will be a way better car in interior look and feel and also performance.

    Nomex not required!

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Hmmmm... Ok, I will buy one

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Hmmmm... Ok, I will buy one



    Yes, Markus,

    The C6SS would do perfectly well on the AB. As for it being "cheap," well, from the standpoint of its interior appointments, sure it's cheap. Whether Jim is correct and the C7 will have more fine interior appointments, I say seeing is believing.

    Re: Corvette Blue Devil Announcement

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    MK, the Corvette is not a disaster. The technology you call "cheap" happens to work very well. Elegeant interior?
    No. But does a $46,000 400hp base model Porsche even exist? No.

    Porsches over reliance on technology bandaids is a disgrace and shows how desperate they are to keep forcing their square pegs into round holes. PASM, Sport Chrono, etc are just bandages to hide the bleeding wounds of over cooked engineering and bait to attract customers with more wishes than sense. Its technology overkill, unreliable, not robust and doomed to make resale values sink even deeper due to the cost of repairs.

    That said. A 700hp Corvette without AWD will be useless except for sunny days or the track. But that is its market!

    Its not as if the car will be marketed to take the place of AWD Passat TDI's. So don't worry, they won't be taking up floor space at your local VW dealer anytime soon.



    OK, my previous post might have been a little bit harsh

    However: 700hp in a RWD car, without ESP, AWD etc... If I understood correctly, those 700hp will also involve turbo charging which cannot be expected to make the car easier to drive... If you ask me, it is the wrong way to offer 700hp the cheapest way possible (basically, that's the Corvette strategy).

    High-performance sports cars require intense know-how and expertise. GM does not have this expertise. This is one of the major reasons why I would neither buy the Z06 or the Blue Devil for intense use on German Autobahns. I would not feel safe as I don't have the confidence that the people who designed and built the car have sufficient expertise in the high-end sportscar segment.

    I prefer to pay more. And to get a top-of-the-league product



    I find these comments so unfounded. Corvette has been racing at places like Sebring/LeMans for over 50 years (and winning). The C5/6R program is just the latest in Corvette's racing heritage. Again, your information is based on a limited/biased european view of cars, not on ACTUAL information. Your opinions are the product of a very narrow view of the car world. If you spoke with a true professional sports car driver, they (being very affluent themselves) would not share your view of Corvette or Ford. They would have a more educated/respectful outlook of these HIGHLY competitive brands.

     
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