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    The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Apologies if it has been posted already, but thought it was pretty cheeky

    http://www.carbuzz.com/news/2016/7/26/Porsche-Trolled-Acura-In-The-Best-Way-Possible-During-The-NSX-s-Development-7734686/

    It’s common practice for automakers to purchase cars from other companies when developing a new model. After all, everyone is really building the same thing but with slight proprietary tweaks. When Honda was developing the new NSX it bought a Porsche 911 GT3 to study its steering. Usually these purchases go unnoticed, but Porsche got wise to the truth. Nick Robinson, the vehicle dynamics project lead for the NSX, told Automotive News that Porsche left a little message for his team.

    According to Robinson, Porsche didn’t initially know that the 911 GT3 had been purchased as a research vehicle. However, when the car came in for a recall to fix the engine connecting rods the secret came out. The Porsche techs looked into the black box data and discovered that the 911 had hit 205 mph. When the car was returned a Porsche employee quizzed the person picking it up, likely not Robinson (he didn’t mention who picked it up), asking them where they hit 205 mph and on what track. When the team popped the hood they found a message written on the engine cover. "Good luck Honda from Porsche. See you on the other side."

    The automotive industry is fiercely competitive so it’s nice to see that Porsche had a sense of humor about one of its cars being used as a competitor’s tester. Robinson told Automotive News that the team also bought a McLaren 12C for research, and despite taking the supercar in a few times for maintenance no one from the English company ever realized what the car was being used for.

     


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    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Funny!  I wonder if Honda removed the rear wing in order to get to 205 mph (330 kph)?  indecision


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    They were drafting the NSX to hit that speed


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Grant:

    Funny!  I wonder if Honda removed the rear wing in order to get to 205 mph (330 kph)?  indecision

    It is actually funnier to learn that the ECU stores the achieved Vmax? Smiley Never heard that but maybe the newer ECU units do that? Where is fritz when you need him. Smiley Smiley

    Yes, car manufacturers test competitor cars but I never heard that they actually buy them. I heard that they exchange cars (seriously) but this may be a thing of the past as well, don't have a clue. Didn't check on this stuff lately.

    Also, how did Porsche know it was Honda? Was that in the ECU as well? Smiley

    I don't know...such stories sound nice but...


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Didn't McLaren buy a 991 GT3 as well?


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Ford SVO has bought Ferrari's, Porsche's and Lamborghini's in the past. Not only do they test them to acquire performance data afterwards they often tear them down to the last nut and bolt to 'inspect' them. What they do with them afterwards I do not know. Porsche is a bit different because Porsche Consulting does a huge amount of work for other manufacturers outside of the VW Group but they have bought Ferrari's for testing and 'inspection.'  All car companies have  'Competitive Intelligence' departments that cover technology, manufacturing process, engineering, marketing and executive activities of other companies.

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Leawood911:

    They were drafting the NSX to hit that speed

    Now that I think of it, that top speed was probably achieved on a "rolling road" dyno with no wind resistance (near redline in 7th gear).


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Those companies have rented Talledega and other tracks for testing days and the Firestone private track is pretty large also. FWIW  Aston Martin used to do their testing and top speed runs on public roads in the 70' s and the 80's.


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    JimFlat6:

    Those companies have rented Talledega and other tracks for testing days and the Firestone private track is pretty large also. FWIW  Aston Martin used to do their testing and top speed runs on public roads in the 70' s and the 80's.

    I don't doubt that they have enough track space to exceed 200mph in the correct car - I just doubt that a car with 475 hp and a picnic table on the tail can punch through a 205 mph headwind...

    Porsche rates the top speed at least 10 mph lower (and they usually are pretty accurate there).  Air resistance is fierce - it requires 8x the horsepower to go 2x the speed (cubic function)


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    I know of a story where Porsche bought a GT-R when it came out and took it apart - but it never achieved it's published numbers and they got rid of it rather quickly again angryindecision


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Grant, kick me if i am wrong,but most cars have a maximum aerodynamic pressure point, a 'wall' at a certain speed and once they break through it they can start to gather speed again. Porsche's top speed claims on cars have usually seemed under rated to me and given for rpms hundreds below their redline.


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    JimFlat6:

    Grant, kick me if i am wrong,but most cars have a maximum aerodynamic pressure point, a 'wall' at a certain speed and once they break through it they can start to gather speed again. Porsche's top speed claims on cars have usually seemed under rated to me and given for rpms hundreds below their redline.

    No, you've got drag which doesn't decrease with speed but is instead 4x power needed by 2x speed increase. the power needed is exponential. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Mithras:

    No, you've got drag which doesn't decrease with speed but is instead 4x power needed by 2x speed increase. the power needed is exponential.  

    No actually you need 8 times the power for 2 times the speed (it is a cube function 2x2x2 or 2 to the 3rd power)...


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    JimFlat6:

    Grant, kick me if i am wrong,but most cars have a maximum aerodynamic pressure point, a 'wall' at a certain speed and once they break through it they can start to gather speed again. Porsche's top speed claims on cars have usually seemed under rated to me and given for rpms hundreds below their redline.

    No, there is no wall.  Just a constant cubic function.  The reason Porsche claims top speed at hundreds of rpm below redline is because this is where Peak HP is made (8,250 rpm in GT3).  You basically want to gear the car so that it can make peak hp at Vmax.  If you gear it so it can reach redline in top gear, then the gearing is too low (and could go faster with taller gears).  If you cannot get to peak hp, then the gearing is too tall.

    So, if the GT3 in question got to 205mph (which would happen well past its peak power at 8,250 rpm), then it was making well less than 475 hp there and something is not right (either done on a dyno or with Very strong tail wind).,


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    And just to complete the mathematical question, how much power does a GT3 need to go 205 mph?

    Well, if we know that it can go 195 mph with 475 hp, then we know we need to go 105.13% as fast to get to 205mph (205/195 = 1.0513).

    And if we know that we have a cubic function of speed vs. power, then we know that we need ((1.0513 x 1.0513 x 1.0513) x 475hp) = 551.92 Horsepower. 

    And since we know that peak power is at 8,250 rpm where it is going 195 mph (23.6 mph per 1,000 rpm) , then at 205 mph the revs would have to be 8,686 rpm which is on the downslope of the power curve which peaked at 8,250 rpm.

    So, there is no way a stock GT3 is making 552hp at 8,686 rpm (it's probably only making ~100 hp less than this amount).


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Or it just has enough power to pull the gear and it's hitting 205mph at redline... working it out with a Cd of .33 and a frontal area of 2.05 (used the same as a 991 turbo) you get 473hp needed to go 205mph.

    Fd=.5pv^2CdA


    --

     

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Mithras:

    Or it just has enough power to pull the gear and it's hitting 205mph at redline... working it out with a Cd of .33 and a frontal area of 2.05 (used the same as a 991 turbo) you get 473hp needed to go 205mph.

    Fd=.5pv^2CdA


    --

     

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

     

    But you would need that much power at the wheels (after all the drivetrain losses which are around 15%) - which would mean 556hp at the crank (473/.85 = 556) - pretty close to my answer of 552 hp (the 15% loss is just a common estimate for a RWD 911)


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    BTW, here is a graph of the 991 GT3's horsepower vs. RPM (you can see it makes only around 420hp at redline after making 475hp at 8,250 rpm on the Red curve) - disregard the yellow circle - someone did this to show the 4.0L low-rpm torque advantage over the GT3):

    991gt3 power chart.jpg


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    So maybe they pulled the engine and put it on a chassis dyno?

    Or the GT3 makes WAY more power than advertised.

    Or the story is a hoax.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Mithras:

    So maybe they pulled the engine and put it on a chassis dyno?

    Or the GT3 makes WAY more power than advertised.

    Or the story is a hoax.

    I don't think the ECU would record a high speed on an engine dyno.  I think the speed info comes from the gearbox- just knowing revs tells you nothing about speed without knowing which gear is selected.

    And under rating an NA motor like the GT3's by that much is impossible.  The HP per Liter would be out of the realm of possibility...

    I still think Rolling Road chassis dyno is the most likely...


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Are not factory hp claims based upon a minimum. Maybe the gt3 they got was making 20-25 more hp than the factory manual states and on a very cold, dry Michigan day say 24 degrees F it could make even more.yes And is there not a aerodynamic advantage also on a cold dry day.Smiley


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    JimFlat6:

    Are not factory hp claims based upon a minimum. Maybe the gt3 they got was making 20-25 more hp than the factory manual states and on a very cold, dry Michigan day say 24 degrees F it could make even more.yes And is there not a aerodynamic advantage also on a cold dry day.Smiley

    It would have to make 100hp more than stock (and 146 hp per Liter, NA) and on a cold day the air is denser, so more aero drag for the car to fight...


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    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    I ask that because with my air cooled Porsches I always got higher top speeds on very cold Colorado/Wyoming days, the kind cold enough that only one lane was dry with snow and ice on the other on a sunny day. A day time temp of 19 degrees was good for higher top speed and better mpg.


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    JimFlat6:

    I ask that because with my air cooled Porsches I always got higher top speeds on very cold Colorado/Wyoming days, the kind cold enough that only one lane was dry with snow and ice on the other on a sunny day. A day time temp of 19 degrees was good for higher top speed and better mpg.

    Yeah, cold air is definitely better for the engine's performance (but not 100hp better).  But doesn't help with the aero (on the contrary)...


    --

    16 Cayman GT4, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    Thanks for clarifying that. kiss  The funny thing about aircooled Porsche driving out there was unless you hit 100 plus you could never heat the car up inside.indecision Or having to use a hatchet to break the ice that glued your car to the parking lot overnight.  It can be like Siberia out there.enlightened


    Re: The Secret Message Porsche Left For Honda In A 911 GT3 Test Car

    BjoernB:

    I know of a story where Porsche bought a GT-R when it came out and took it apart - but it never achieved it's published numbers and they got rid of it rather quickly again angryindecision

    Reminds me of the Ferrari aerodynamics claims in the past, Porsche did test them and they never were even close. Smiley Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


     
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