Crown

Board: Motor Sports Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    .


    --


    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    the last chance for Ferrari

     


    --

    AM


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    At this point, I want to see McLaren win before Ferrari.

    It will be especially sweet as Alonso is not driving for them anymore.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Finally some drama in F1.

    Here's an analysis of the incident. I don't think Vettel's actions were deliberate. yes

    https://streamable.com/m9yis

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    As a racer, I certainly see there should't be a penalty involved. They were racing, hard.

    But from the stewards point of view, there should be. Vettel did ended up rejoining the track's racing line in a unsafe way, and while he was a passenger riding through the grass, he should't be in the grass in the first place.

    I had a similar incident racing at Spa before, I took a bad line through Radillon, cutting across inside the curbs, I got called up to the stewards immediately after the session. 

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Exactly how I see it.

    If there had been enough space on track, Hamilton would have gotten passed anyway. So if the stewards hadn't punished Vettel, it would have penalized Hamilton, which would have been unfair...


    --

    2018 White 911 GT3


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    ...at this stage of this wonderful season it's not like this is going to change anything except the victory counter of HAM vs VET...

     


    --

    997.1 C4 Silver (current), 996.1C4 (sold), 997.1C2S (sold) 986.1S (sold)


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    The essence of the incident is that Vettel made another mistake under pressure yes


    --

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    reginos:

    The essence of the incident is that Vettel made another mistake under pressure yes

    yeah, he is done with F1 titles unless he gets another car that is 10 times better than the next best and that his teammate is unlucky or really bad. He just can't handle it...already against Webber he was showing signs of not handling pressure. It's a pity because I really like, in the interview he always strikes me as a very balanced clever guy...and he was very good on his early years but he can't live on those 4 'easy' titles forever. He needs to move on and so should Ferrari...


    --

    997.1 C4 Silver (current), 996.1C4 (sold), 997.1C2S (sold) 986.1S (sold)


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Jeannot:
    reginos:

    The essence of the incident is that Vettel made another mistake under pressure yes

    yeah, he is done with F1 titles unless he gets another car that is 10 times better than the next best and that his teammate is unlucky or really bad. He just can't handle it...already against Webber he was showing signs of not handling pressure. It's a pity because I really like, in the interview he always strikes me as a very balanced clever guy...and he was very good on his early years but he can't live on those 4 'easy' titles forever. He needs to move on and so should Ferrari...

    While I would normally agree with your assessment, this time Vettel was driving a car that through dint of will put ahead of the Mercedes of Hamilton.   Hamilton’s car was definitely the superior car yesterday as he close the gap at will.  However, Hamilton made several driving errors that were not as dramatic but prevented him from passing Vettel. 

    Formula One needed a close race to keep spectators and it had that race.  Unfortunately, the stewards took that away from the spectators and the racers.  I will spend the rest of the season doing something else because it will be all Mercedes’ wins with Hamilton punctuated with the occasional win by Bottas.  


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Completely agree with you,

    Vettel was just punished because he tried to race a very good driver in a monster of a car.

    To be honest the Ferrari is an inferior car , he had no choice but driving on the limit every laps. Behind a computer it is very easy to criticize Vettel.

    They are killing sport because of Mercedes political dominance.

    PS : dijon 1979 ,

    Villeneuve and Arnoux would have been black flagged with those rules..

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    The real and only question is was Hamilton close enough to be awarded a spot ahead of Vettel?

    Let’s put it this way, if H was aggressively trying to overtake V and right behind him then the answer is yes. If H was 2s behind V and driving casually then the answer is no. In the case of no, then you have to see if V deliberately closed the door, here everyone agrees the answer is no.

    Here is it not crystal clear. H was 1s behind V but in no position to overtake. I would not have awarded the penalty, Vettel was the real winner yesterday. H was never in any real position to overtake V at any point of the race, giving the win to H was an obtrusive application of some vague rule that killed the enjoyment of the race. This is the first F1 race I see in a long time and it did not give me any reason to watch another one anytime soon.

    To put it another way, Vettel did not deliberately closed the door and H was too far in the first place to cleanly be in front even though V went on the grass. The stewards should not have intervened, they were overzealous.

    At least H somewhat behaved with reserve at the end of the race.


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Vettel was penalized according to the letter of the F1 rule book.

    Some might say that there are too many rules in F1  today and that they might find those rules inflexible and often damaging to the sport

    During the  Arnoux-Villeneuve era mentioned above, 40 years ago F1 was flexible and not so strictly regulated, similar to most other activities in the world. In those days you could open a bank account anywhere very easily, who could pay thousands in cash to purchase a car, there were no security checks at airports, no speed cameras, no VAR in soccer football smileyetc etc.

    The times they are a-changin'.


    --

     

    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    It’s not changing for the better in this case. Fans want to see driver racing at near 100% of their capabilities, you aren’t tuning in to watch a chess match. It was a bad call, stewards do have some leeway and the chose the option that would ensure a boring finish to the race. 

    What a farce indeed:

    https://www.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/26936774/what-farce-only-f1-shoot-foot-this

     

     



    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    So, the race director could have told Vettel to let Lewis pass, as opposed to assessing a 5 second penalty and leaving Vettel in front, which all but assured a boring race. The superior car merely had to finish no less than 5 seconds behind to win. Seems vindictive at worst, or shortsighted at best.

    0584677C-6F66-4E64-8650-7A1BF2FB3909.jpeg


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Whether there is a faster car behind or not have no influence on whether to apply a penalty or not, it's an independent decision with regards to Vettel's action only. 

    Vettel could have drive faster to negate the 5 seconds penalty, he did out qualify Hamilton to sit on pole after all. I believe he was 3.3 seconds ahead when the penalty was communicated. 

    At the time the penalty was announced, the race isn't finished yet, anything could have happened still. Hamilton could have had a engine failure, or he make a mistake and screw up a corner, or a tire puncture and drop back more or not finishing the race.

    It's easy to say Hamilton just need to finish no more than 5 seconds behind for the win, but he still have to finish the race first.

    By the same token, Vettel could have blown an engine, pick up a puncture, or screw up another corner or 2 and drops back and makes the 5 second penalty a moot point against the race with Hamilton. 

    Now if Vettel was issued a let Hamilton pass order or else takes a 5 second penalty thing, he still wouldn't have let Hamilton pass, he would have likely elect to take his chances and take the 5 seconds penalty. 

    By just issuing the 5 seconds penalty, and with 10 laps to go, the stewards tried to preserve the racing part. Vettel still need to drive hard to the end and hoping to gain > 5 seconds lead, while Hamilton is also racing hard to get within a 5 seconds window.

     

     


    --

     

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    I see both sides but the way I see it, the driver who made the mistake was Vettel, not Hamilton, and while penalising Vettel is not and ideal solution for the race overall, not penalising him would be de facto penalising Hamilton who did nothing wrong, and would have been more unfair. So the penalty to Vettel was the least unfair outcome imo and the right call.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Vettel did not gain any position, H was too far behind to overtake him unless Vettel came to an almost complete stop. As long as Vettel did not close the door on purpose while regaining the track (he did not, he barley made with without hitting the wall), he should stay in front. Part of the race. Furthermore he could not see exactly where H was.

    Any other decision would not make sense if the car behind is slightly further. Where would you put the limit then? 1.5s? 2s? 3s? 5s? 10s? 30s? One lap? The steward decision was unwarranted.

    Hamilton all of a sudden was much closer to Vettel, why didn’t he pass him then?


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Carlos from Spain ,sorry to disagree but this is not racing just lawyers discussion.

    And yes sport was better during the eighties with unreliable cars and drivers taking huge risks with their life.

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    F1 is no longer a race, but a parade. I’m with the drivers on this one. It’s the pinnacle of Motorsport, not children’s karting. Maybe if Lewis went inside he could have overtaken.

    Ricciardo on the incident:

    "If he pulls a little further to the left, he'll spin. When he brakes on the grass, he'll spin too. There was not much room for Lewis but still enough.I had an identical situation with Lewis in 2016 Monte Carlo. He had to go through the emergency exit and almost pushed me into the wall on his return. With me it was tighter than now with him. He didn't get a penalty. That was a good thing. It was a hard racing.

    Button:

    "For me, it's a racing incident. You can’t just stop the car and stay off the circuit."

    Damon Hill:

    I think we had a right to see how it would have panned out. F1 is not a lab experiment. Its paid for totally by loyal fans who are routinely denied what they have paid for in good faith

    Webber:

    Any of the stewards ever raced at the front in F1? Didn’t watch the race.. have now seen the “incident”.
    Mental penalty.

     

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Whether there are too many rules in F1, and many against the spirit of racing, that is a different debate with which I agree, I already lost hope for F1, I've said it many times, F1 is a joke, it is pretend racing.

    But the debate is whether the penalty was correct or not according to those rules that are currently in F1 that apply to all drivers, not if those rules are fair and should be removed or not. Two different things.

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/48583803


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    SciFrog:

    Vettel did not gain any position, H was too far behind to overtake him unless Vettel came to an almost complete stop. As long as Vettel did not close the door on purpose while regaining the track (he did not, he barley made with without hitting the wall), he should stay in front. Part of the race. Furthermore he could not see exactly where H was.

    See the first link from my post. It was explained there. Vettel made a second steering wheel move which we can't quite see on TV, and that was the move that the decision was made from. He also checked his mirrors so he would have seen where Hamilton is. While the 2nd steering wheel movement could have been for further saving the car from oversteering, the rules is quite black and white that way, when one rejoin the track surface, it has to be done in a safe manor and not directly onto the racing line, it does't matter if the car is still out of control or not. 

    As I have mentioned before, I had a similar incident at Spa last year when I when completely inside the curbs at Radillon. When I rejoin the surface I was still sliding a bit and onto the racing line. The same rule was explained to me by the race director and I got a warning despite my protest. Sascha Massen afterwards told me that was a dangerous move, he lost one of his driver at the same corner, his driver did what I did and got nailed by another car coming up the hill. The rule is there for safety reasons.

    Any other decision would not make sense if the car behind is slightly further. Where would you put the limit then? 1.5s? 2s? 3s? 5s? 10s? 30s? One lap? The steward decision was unwarranted.

    The standard rule penalty is clearly written at 5 seconds, it's not arbitrary.

    Hamilton all of a sudden was much closer to Vettel, why didn’t he pass him then?

     

    Hamilton would have made it passed Vettel had there isn't a wall but run offs there. 


    --

     

     


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    JEANTET:

     

    And yes sport was better during the eighties with unreliable cars and drivers taking huge risks with their life.

     

     

    And drivers playing dirty tricks without being penalized . Trying to be too fair makes the race also more boring 

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Exactly. It is called racing and I bet my @** if it would’ve been HAM doing this move everybody would applaud him for his determined racing attitude, even here on the forum.

    The thing is that the penalties are not coherent, I remember manoeuvres from HAM in the past that were not reprimanded. Funny enough, according to RIC, he did just that in the past and no one cared.

    That said, I couldn’t care less for F1, watched the Monaco race for five laps and got bored... 


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Good column about the penalty:

    https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/48583803


    --

    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2008 Porsche 911 GT3 RS (sold) / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2014 BMW-Alpina D3 biturbo Touring / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Agree.

    Good piece.


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    I was told that the 5 second penalty was the stewards only option (other than doing nothing).  This was the problem.  A better solution would have been to allow LH to pass SV and then let them both race to the end.  The 5 second penalty essentially decided the race.


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    GT-Boy:

    I was told that the 5 second penalty was the stewards only option (other than doing nothing).  This was the problem.  A better solution would have been to allow LH to pass SV and then let them both race to the end.  The 5 second penalty essentially decided the race.

    Totally agree with you. The stewards decided the outcome of the race with that penalty way before it was over. Smiley


    Re: 2019 Canadian F1 Grand Prix in Montreal

    Very happy Jolyon Palmer isn t formula one driver anymore.

    This guy doesn t deserve it.

    I really hope Vettel saw hamilton and blocked him deliberately because it is the essence of racing.

    I don t understand why we are talking about this, honestly ?

    ps Hamilton did exactly the same in monaco in 2016 (ricciardo) with no penalty.

    It was a good decision.


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 10/25/21 12:29 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    478352 1291
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 10/18/21 10:58 PM
    Leawood911
    174760 1150
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 10/14/21 6:25 PM
    bluelines
    68483 382
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 10/25/21 11:16 PM
    watt
    61895 645
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    47807 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/26/21 3:26 AM
    Leawood911
    47278 447
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    13065 29
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    470818 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    387811 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 10/20/21 6:01 PM
    Topspeed
    383203 3919
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    349412 3252
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 10/8/21 11:41 AM
    xpto
    318995 2647
    Porsche 992 GT3 10/22/21 10:59 AM
    reginos
    270925 3051
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    252888 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    168637 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    119051 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    103372 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 10/9/21 1:11 PM
    CGX car nut
    94385 1231
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    82857 209
    Lambo Aventador and SV 8/27/21 2:33 PM
    Topspeed
    72800 698
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    72601 824
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    51443 596
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 10/26/21 4:30 AM
    WhoopsyM
    49433 1208
    Others Bugatti Chiron 10/16/21 4:53 PM
    crayphile
    43107 486
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/24/21 6:30 PM
    Porker
    40574 531
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    39435 615
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    30788 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    Rossi
    27732 370
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 10/25/21 8:03 PM
    WhoopsyM
    27377 785
    Porsche GT4RS 10/24/21 5:20 PM
    WhoopsyM
    27095 432
    258 items found, displaying 1 to 30.