Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Panamera??? - Page2

Jan 15, 2007 6:09:20 AM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Ron (Houston)

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
The Panamera could be very successful for Porsche if they style and power it to lure buyers from the competition. If they Caymanize it, then it might not work.

Agree %100 Al. They need to have a good looking design and a good figure for HP otherwise there are so many options out there in that class.

I disagree 100%. I think the Panamera will be an initial disappointment, regardless of design or hp, much like the Cayenne was.

Success will come when Porsche does an about-face and offer the poorman's version, e.g. diesel and V6 options.

But, as diluted as the Porsche brand have become, it still has a certain cachet to some new buyers.

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Jan 15, 2007 6:17:11 AM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
RC said:
True. The problem is that there is already a lot of criticism regarding high power figures and sooner or later, especially with rising energy cost, I think that state legislators come up with some sort of direct or indirect limitation of power and fuel consumption. It is just a matter of time. In my opinion, they better limit the weight on certain vehicle types.

Of course there will be exemptions for low volume producers like Ferrari and Lambo. Porsche, I'm not so sure...

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Jan 15, 2007 5:51:11 PM

Targa Tim: Expert; Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada , Canada; Posts: 1473, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2005; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
The Panamera could be very successful for Porsche if they style and power it to lure buyers from the competition. If they Caymanize it, then it might not work.

Agree %100 Al. They need to have a good looking design and a good figure for HP otherwise there are so many options out there in that class.

I disagree 100%. I think the Panamera will be an initial disappointment, regardless of design or hp, much like the Cayenne was.

Success will come when Porsche does an about-face and offer the poorman's version, e.g. diesel and V6 options.

But, as diluted as the Porsche brand have become, it still has a certain cachet to some new buyers.

What are you talking about??? The Cayenne was a big success for Porsche ever since its launch, with sales that surpass both the 911 and Boxsters until recently (anticipation of facelift). People that "felt" Cayenne was a disappointment are the non-owners, or owners of other SUVs as their SUVs were more inferior in comparison (of sporty handling).

If the Panamera is priced competitively, it will steal sales from E63, M5/6 and RS6/S8, etc.

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Jan 15, 2007 9:01:07 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: Targa Tim

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
Targa Tim said:
Quote:
svtrader1 said:
Quote:
Ron (Houston) said:
Quote:
Turbo Al said:
The Panamera could be very successful for Porsche if they style and power it to lure buyers from the competition. If they Caymanize it, then it might not work.

Agree %100 Al. They need to have a good looking design and a good figure for HP otherwise there are so many options out there in that class.

I disagree 100%. I think the Panamera will be an initial disappointment, regardless of design or hp, much like the Cayenne was.

Success will come when Porsche does an about-face and offer the poorman's version, e.g. diesel and V6 options.

But, as diluted as the Porsche brand have become, it still has a certain cachet to some new buyers.

What are you talking about??? The Cayenne was a big success for Porsche ever since its launch, with sales that surpass both the 911 and Boxsters until recently (anticipation of facelift). People that "felt" Cayenne was a disappointment are the non-owners, or owners of other SUVs as their SUVs were more inferior in comparison (of sporty handling).

If the Panamera is priced competitively, it will steal sales from E63, M5/6 and RS6/S8, etc.

Success in what way?

Look at the sales chart posted in another thread for the full year in NA. Most Cayennes sold had the V6 in such a heavy vehicle. Thats a JOKE! Even RC complained a lot about the hesitation in his turbo.

The only thing Porsche is succeeding at right now is watering down the brand with less than class leading products.

And now if that boxy subaru clone in those pics in the other thread are any bit close to the final panamera design, then porsche will be finished as top tier sports car company to be replaced by bmw m cars and Merc AMG. Which is already happening!

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Jan 15, 2007 9:29:17 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
racerx said: Most Cayennes sold had the V6 in such a heavy vehicle. Thats a JOKE! Even RC complained a lot about the hesitation in his turbo.

The only thing Porsche is succeeding at right now is watering down the brand with less than class leading products.

And now if that boxy subaru clone in those pics in the other thread are any bit close to the final panamera design, then porsche will be finished as top tier sports car company to be replaced by bmw m cars and Merc AMG. Which is already happening!

racerx whilst I appreciate that you may want to cling on to some notion of Porsche as it was in the 70's or 80's the reality is that they nearly went bust just producing a limited range of cars. To succeed in the modern world they need a range of cars generating profit. There is a reason why the V6 sells so well and that is down to the good value it offers. Yes it may not be super fast but lots of buyers could care less and enjoy it for its balance of comfort, handling and space. I suspect many of them own other Porsches and use the V6 as an everday hauler. Another point to note is that outside of the US gas is a fairly expensive commodity and many people just don't want the expense of running a V8 when they will rarely get the opportunity to use the extra ponies on our congested roads. The residual value on a V6 is much stronger than a V8 for this very reason in the UK at least. I've got a V6 and I can make it hustle plenty fast enough to go past most traffic. It was my second Porsche and since then I've bought 4 others - 2 Boxsters, a 997 C2S and a Cayman S so I'd think the guys in Stuttgart would be pleased with that.

I apologise for the quality of the Panamera pic I posted as it doesn't do the originals justice. Had you seen them I doubt you'd say it looked in any way like a Subaru. The car is extremely curvacious with not one straight line in evidence on it.

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Jan 15, 2007 9:49:29 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

The reason the Porsche name has its cachet is because of what was going on in the 70's and 80's both the racing and the fastest production cars. That is Porsche.

That's the reason until recently that people would stand and gawk at a Porsche go by, still do at mine. It looked like an exotic and it performed like one. Thats what people expect from one.

As far as value, the list is almost endless for SUV's that look better, sound better and perform as well as the cayenne excpeting the turbo. On looks and engine I'll take an infiniti FX.

That image of the panamera you posted is good enough to see it is overly large and boxy. It looks like a cross over utility not at all like a sedan. The sad fact is that Porsche needed an SUV because their sports cars weren't selling. The cayenne sales are down 30% for this past year.

Audi, mercedes, and bmw are eating porsche's linch right now. Porsche needs to get away from the 911 look and produce different models that do give value and class leading performance.

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Jan 15, 2007 10:01:12 PM

svtrader1: Veteran; Loc:; Posts: 821, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2003; Reply to: Targa Tim

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
Targa Tim said:

What are you talking about??? The Cayenne was a big success for Porsche ever since its launch, with sales that surpass both the 911 and Boxsters until recently (anticipation of facelift). People that "felt" Cayenne was a disappointment are the non-owners, or owners of other SUVs as their SUVs were more inferior in comparison (of sporty handling).

I suggest you check the facts. The first year sales of the Cayenne was anticipated to be 25,000 units, they fell far short of that with only 17,000.

It wasn't until they offered the V6 version that sales begin to perk up.

Quote:
Targa Tim said:

If the Panamera is priced competitively, it will steal sales from E63, M5/6 and RS6/S8, etc.

We already know the Panamera will be overpriced ($100k+)relative to its competitors. This is why they won't meet their sales projection of 20,000 per anum.

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Jan 16, 2007 4:18:23 AM

GM Austin: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Texas , United States; Posts: 3529, Gallery; Registered on: Sep 10, 2002; Reply to: svtrader1

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
I suggest you check the facts. The first year sales of the Cayenne was anticipated to be 25,000 units, they fell far short of that with only 17,000.

It wasn't until they offered the V6 version that sales begin to perk up.

Maybe you should check your facts. The Cayenne was introduced in Germany in December 2002 and in the US in March 2003. By the end of Porsche's fiscal year in June of 2003 they had sold 20,603 Cayennes (S and Turbos only). (PAG Press Release) From July 2003 to July 2004 they sold 39,913 Cayennes.

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Jan 16, 2007 10:00:01 AM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: GM Austin

Re: Panamera???

I'd suggest that the reason that Porsches looked exotic in the 70's and 80's had more top do with just how bad the styling of other cars on the road were which made the offerings from Stuttgart really stand out. Most of the American cars of this period were truly awful. Porsches were also a far less common sight than they are today. Thanks to increased wealth and car prices coming down in relative terms, more people than ever are now able to afford them. Design wise manufacturers have woken up to the fact that consumers want bolder designs coupled with good performance and handling and the majority now offer this on at least one or two models in their range. This growth in design lead cars makes creating a more individual and timeless look much harder to achieve. It's amusing to hear BMW and Audi being held up as taking the lead in terms of drivers cars. I had one of the first E60 5 series models and the furore there was on internet forums about Bangle's ruination of the classic BMW look was incredible and still drags on to this day. The new range of BMW cars are also slated by some "enthusiasts" for not offering the handling of past models, being too heavy, lacking in quality of materials used on the interiors, having too many electronic driver aids that go wrong etc etc. As for Audi's taking a lead over Porsche I guess I must have missed something. Apart from the RS4 and the new TT, Audi have yet to produce cars that are truly engaging to drive. Sticking an engine out over the front axle doesn't give great handling characteristics but does create massive understeer. Time will tell what the R8 is like but even if it is great it'll take a long time for the rest of the range to be brought up to par. I'm not holding up a beacon for Porsche here. I just believe that the mix of styling and performance they offer at their chosen price points is still pretty good overall.

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Jan 16, 2007 12:18:33 PM

EricAlain: Veteran; Loc: Paris, France , France; Posts: 1037, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 14, 2002; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

Svtrader1: Your info are rather inaccurate.

Porsche always said, Cayenne's sales target was around 20k units. I remember reading reports form prestigious competitors arguing it was way too optmimistic; If they were to sell 10k per year, they would be extremely lucky !!!!

Bottom line:
FY 02/03: 20,603 (Launch December 02 in Europe and March 15th 03 in NA, so basically 1/2 year of sales)
FY 03/04: 39,913
FY 04/05: 41,884
FY 05/06: 34,134

Total production of Cayenne Generation 1 has been 150,371 units (in 4 years). This has to be compared with an overall production over 7 years for the 996 of 178,410 units (the most succesful 911 ever !!!)

Mix
V6: 38%
V8: 44%
V8 TT: 18%

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Jan 16, 2007 1:56:58 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
ISUK said:
I'd suggest that the reason that Porsches looked exotic in the 70's and 80's had more top do with just how bad the styling of other cars on the road were which made the offerings from Stuttgart really stand out.

Somewhat true, but it had to do with the fact that porsche ruled endurance racing without question and they ruled F1. I saw it in person.

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=302727&an=0&page=0#302727

And whats wrong with creating designs that stand out because of a well thought out design. Some pictures posted here about possible panamera designs even had nick saying he would buy one because they were sleek and hot. BTW my 928 is still one of the best looking cars on the road.

http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=305104&an=0&page=0#305104

As to audi, I have not driven one but I can read their website and what I see is attractive designs with direct injection on a gallardo V10 in many of their models and probably at a better price point.

I want porsche to stay on top in both design and function, they are not there. They are in a major rut. Everything in the production lineup looks like a 911

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Jan 16, 2007 2:45:17 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

racerx I guess we'll have to agree to differ in some respects. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder etc and I wasn't aware that Nick had been elevated to the status of design guru. I'm sure he'll be delighted with this accolade though

I don't think I ever suggested there was anything wrong with designs that stood out. I agree to a point on the issue about using 911 styling but the Panamera is developing the theme in a new way. It may even create a successor to your 928 if a 2 door version gets the go-ahead at some point in the future as has been speculated in some of the motoring press. A potential rival for the 599 perhaps, who knows.....

If you have never driven an Audi how can you make a judgement on their performance versus Porsche? Reading about future models is very different to actually driving what they have traditionally produced. I've owned 3 Audis for my sins and each was bought because I was seduced by the looks but only 1 was actually anywhere remotely enjoyable as a "drivers" car. The others were automotive sculpture best described as conveyances to get from A to B which I quickly fell out of love with and sold on. Audi are by no means alone in this respect as there are some great looking cars on the market but they are not good drives. I agree on the V10 engine though as I have a Gallardo and it has to rank as one of the best engines in current production. Audi unfortunately tame it down somewhat with their restrictive tuning and have partially diluted the great sound it is capable of making. Having said that, I'd be a tad upset if someone in an Audi had a better sounding engine than my Lambo

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Jan 16, 2007 3:07:01 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

This is what I would expect from porsche in a 4 door sedan type car. This has the attributes that would make it a class leader imo; low, sleek, and wide. Yet the mule and the latest pics show a massive, tall boxy and uninspired design.

As to audi, I can take the technical specs and from my experience with other vehicles get an idea for their performance along with other customer reviews.

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Jan 16, 2007 3:10:18 PM

Crash: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Never been to , Antarctica; Posts: 8287, Gallery; Registered on: Oct 17, 2002; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
racerx said:
This is what I would expect from porsche in a 4 door sedan type car. This has the attributes that would make it a class leader imo. Yet the mule and the latest pics show a massive, tall boxy and uninspired design.

Yep, this is it! This is the way the Panamera should look!

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Jan 16, 2007 3:18:49 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Crash

Re: Panamera???

Guys, that photoshop is ridiculous. How would anyone gain entry to the rear seats with a short and radically curved rear door line like that? It would never pass any safety crash testing

There is a limit as to what a designer can achieve when having to meet all the needs of the intended use of the car and Porsche can hardly produce a serious competitor in the 4 seat sedan market that has smaller rear doors than a Mazda RX8 like this pic purports to show with only enough rear headroom for Snow White's companions to enjoy

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Jan 16, 2007 3:51:10 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

Silly not at all, cut the door shape any way you want. But keep the body the way that photo has it. I don't know what doors have to do with safety but the new rolls royce has suicide doors and lambos trap you in a roll over. So i wouldn't harp on door design too much.

As to fitting in here is the DIRECT competition for the panamera;

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Jan 16, 2007 3:52:48 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

and; I have sat in the back seat of the cls and I have driven it. Mercedes seems to be able to find enough room in their shape for comfort, porsche should have no problem given the engine up front.

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Jan 16, 2007 4:16:46 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

racerx,

You've brightened up my day no end. First off you say you can tell what a car will drive like by reading it's technical spec's then you don't see what door design has to do with safety. Intriguing stuff. Are you sure you are not a road tester for Autocar or Auto Express magazines?

The Aston Rapide has long rear door that actually will allow an average sized adult to get their legs in and out of the vehicle. Headroom is an altogether different matter though. For Porsche to make a 4 door sedan that is going up against high end competition from Maserati, Mercedes, BMW etc then rear head and legroom will be a prerequisite. I'm sure they will be up to the task

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Jan 16, 2007 4:26:37 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

You are splitting hairs isuk, yes if i know the power level of a sedan and its weight I can generally guess how fast it will go as I have been around enough cars from enough manf.'s.

On the photoshop of the panamera above you can shorten the first door and lengthen the second, no big deal.

The important part is the overall lines of the car. Face it the pic that started this is ugly, puking smiley ugly. Its a tall box. You said you liked it and now go off on tangents instead of just saying its UGLY.

Please tell me what a dor shape or function has to do with safety and critique the lambo doors, the RR suicide doors, and how about the ford gt head chopper doors while your at it. The last thing you should have picked on was door shape.

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Jan 16, 2007 4:43:54 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

I don't think I'd say I was splitting hairs on the issue, just underscoring a few basic design principles. You are correct in saying that I like the design shown in the pics I posted but I have already pointed out that they don't do justice to the originals featured in CAR magazine as the scale and shape of the car is lost in these grainy images. The originals do not show it to be a tall car at all. I have no issue if you don't like it, that's the beauty of personal choice. But do you really need me to point out why door design has a huge amount to do with the structural integrity of a car? The positioning of the B pillar on the sides of a cars body has a direct influence upon side impact protection performance to start with. The pillar itself acts as a primary impact protection point for the front seat occupant. The positioning of door hinges can therefore have a huge impact upon occupant safety as the side of the car is crushed in a collision. It is not therefore simply a matter of making one door longer and one door shorter to fit in with an aesthetic look you may find pleasing. That's all I was pointing out

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Jan 16, 2007 5:04:40 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

I forgot to critique the doors mentioned from a safety perspective: -

Lambo Murcielago - stylish design but potentially fatal in the event of a roll over and subsequent fire as was sadly proven in an accident last year in the Czech republic. This accident has been well debated on Lambo forums and resulted in many owners investing in life hammers for their cars. The Gallardo has no such issues as it has conventional doors.

Ford GT - same potential issue as above due to roof section opening with the door assembly.

Rolls Royce - this car was designed to have opposing suicide doors from the outset but still retains a central B pillar for cabin structural intergrity so there is no safety compromise.

The point about the first two cars is that they are 2 seat exotics/supercars produced in very limited numbers and such designs bring compromises in terms of stylish design versus absolute safety. Anyone buying such a car needs to consider this when buying one. The Panamera on the other hand is a 4 door sedan to be produced in relatively high numbers and will be partially aimed at owners with children. I doubt very much if such owners will take a lenient view on passenger cell safety compromises and will therefore demand good crash worthiness.

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Jan 16, 2007 6:18:39 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

Thanks isuk for the thoughtful response.

In the photoshop above, you could change the door cut-outs anyway you want and insert a vertical beam between the doors for rigidity. Even take the 2nd door opening back to the hip as in the AM rapide. Just keep the overall shape the same.

That being said you can have your crossover/subaru pan and I'll have the sleek merc and aston beating pan.

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Jan 16, 2007 7:47:21 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

I'll leave the design to you racerx as you seem more than qualified in moving doors. Perhaps you could tell us all how this car is going to drive based upon your ability to figure this out from technical details. Or give Porsche a call, tell them and save them a ton of cash by avoiding needless roadtesting

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Jan 16, 2007 10:09:54 PM

Targa Tim: Expert; Loc: Vancouver, BC, Canada , Canada; Posts: 1473, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 3, 2005; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

Quote:
ISUK said:
I'll leave the design to you racerx as you seem more than qualified in moving doors. Perhaps you could tell us all how this car is going to drive based upon your ability to figure this out from technical details. Or give Porsche a call, tell them and save them a ton of cash by avoiding needless roadtesting

Hi ISUK,

This thread has become so interesting that it keeps pulling me away from my work to check for updates.

Your above comment is particularly entertaining...

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Jan 16, 2007 10:12:08 PM

ISUK: Rennteam Master; Loc: UK , United Kingdom; Posts: 4202, Gallery; Registered on: Dec 16, 2004; Reply to: Targa Tim

Re: Panamera???

Glad to be of service Tim

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Jan 17, 2007 3:01:33 PM

racerx: Rennteam VIP; Loc: 1985 porsche dealership , Bouvet Island; Posts: 8751, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 27, 2004; Reply to: ISUK

Re: Panamera???

All I have to tell them is that the Porsche brand has so far survived the watering down of the image with the uninspired Cayenne (just read the cayenne forum), but to do so again with an ugly duckling sedan with performance issues would kill what racing and proven timeless classics like the 928 built.

I would also tell them to get back to racing in a real way.

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Jan 17, 2007 5:31:09 PM

roadtrip: Veteran; Loc: new mexico, usa; Posts: 1172, Gallery; Registered on: May 31, 2006; Reply to: racerx

Re: Panamera???

hoping they will be able to incorporate the white line thru the middle as a design feature... perhaps with exclusive dept variants, say cf snakeskin...sorry this is a true piece of s_ _ t or great red herring waste of time and $

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Jan 18, 2007 9:55:01 AM

jamesaug: Pilot; Loc: UK; Posts: 414, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 10, 2005; Reply to: roadtrip

Re: Panamera???

I have a question/thought.. (a first!) Turbo Al said that:
"If they Caymanize it, then it might not work"...What do you mean by this exactly? Im guessing its somthing to do with artifically limting the cars potential to stop it internally competing with other porsches for sale.. But lets think..the cayman was actually a very simillar car to the 911 (from a non-enthusiast viewpoint) and so it was perceieved as direct competition and needs pegging back.. what would do porsche already make that would need the panamera to be limited? I think that it will blow the socks of most buyers..!

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Re: Panamera???

Re: Panamera???

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