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    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Whoopsy:

     

    Which is why the Alfa 4C is such a odd beast. It is everything you just said. And it's also a decent car no less.

     

    It's exactly the car I had in mind when I wrote that. It was given a rough review by the motoring press when launched as they completely missed the point of it. It has also received it's fair share of criticism on here. I've been a lone voice supporting it for the past 4 years and believe it will only truly be appreciated by a wider audience in years to come once it has been out of production for a few years and is no longer being compared to contemporary cars on price etc. The silliest comparison over it's production life has been putting it up against the Cayman which really does feel like a luxury limo in comparison. Drive both cars back to back and most people would realise they are not models that would seriously be cross shopped by sensible buyers. The Alfa is is extremely raw, loud, much harsher riding, "feels" considerably faster and is a visceral and demanding workout behind the wheel. You get out of it knowing you have been driving and with a faint buzzing in your ears if you have the race exhaust fitted. It feels special and unlike almost any other car. It would have undoubtedly benefited from a longer gestation period with more chassis development but in a way it is special precisely because of that flaw. Every drive is an event for the senses whereas a trip in a Cayman only becomes special on the right road.


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    ISUK:
    Whoopsy:

     

    Which is why the Alfa 4C is such a odd beast. It is everything you just said. And it's also a decent car no less.

     

    It's exactly the car I had in mind when I wrote that. It was given a rough review by the motoring press when launched as they completely missed the point of it. It has also received it's fair share of criticism on here. I've been a lone voice supporting it for the past 4 years and believe it will only truly be appreciated by a wider audience in years to come once it has been out of production for a few years and is no longer being compared to contemporary cars on price etc. The silliest comparison over it's production life has been putting it up against the Cayman which really does feel like a luxury limo in comparison. Drive both cars back to back and most people would realise they are not models that would seriously be cross shopped by sensible buyers. The Alfa is is extremely raw, loud, much harsher riding, "feels" considerably faster and is a visceral and demanding workout behind the wheel. You get out of it knowing you have been driving and with a faint buzzing in your ears if you have the race exhaust fitted. It feels special and unlike almost any other car. It would have undoubtedly benefited from a longer gestation period with more chassis development but in a way it is special precisely because of that flaw. Every drive is an event for the senses whereas a trip in a Cayman only becomes special on the right road.

     

    Well you are not alone anymore Smiley

    The press don't get the intention of the 4C, hence they came in with say a Cayman in mind for comparison. In my mind the only thing that could be close is the original Miata. Bare, light, not much power but extremely fun to drive.

    I agree, the chassis and suspension setup is still rough around the edges, could do with more development. But I fear Alfa won't do a 2nd gen car, it will be a one off. 

    The car is so raw, it is as close to my GT4CS race car as possible. My race car actually feels less raw with power steering Smiley


    --

     

     


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    The 4C is like the original Lotus Series 1 Elise. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Mithras:

    The 4C is like the original Lotus Series 1 Elise. 

     

    Ah yes, forgot about that car. 

    I had trouble getting into and out of though. Smiley


    --

     

     


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    I am starting to like what you guys are writing about the 4C.. also has the advantage of being for sale.


    --

    2015 911 GT3, 1964 Type 1


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    RC:
    Porker:

    It looks like someone attempted to make a Ferrari Enzo lookalike from a Toyota MR2. angry

    Smiley Smiley

    Speaking of MR2: I never understood why Toyota doesn't make a (relatively cheap and light) modern successor. Was a fun car.

    A dark blue MR2 was almost my first car when I started college. 




    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    He can be a bit much, but enjoyed this review of the Senna.  

    https://youtu.be/7vMhGAdbdm4

    CF9B6DFE-6E9A-4AF5-821F-13DD122DB57C.jpeg

    If the looks are too ugly for you here is something a bit different if you are so inclined

    F315D0DE-9250-478D-92D9-75D549B2CE40.jpeg


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    lexs4:

    He can be a bit much, but enjoyed this review of the Senna.  

    https://youtu.be/7vMhGAdbdm4

    CF9B6DFE-6E9A-4AF5-821F-13DD122DB57C.jpeg

     

     

    Thanks - I enjoyed the video a lot. Actually - this color combo looks incredible! Also - the picture above is probably the best looking Senna picture I ever saw. It's mind breaking!

     


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Agreed, I’ve really come around on the car having watched this video.  The side profile is still very awkward, but a very impressive vehicle.  Likely will never see one in person, and disappointed in that.  Never thought I’d say that when it was first launched.



    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Topspeed:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gctM13Lddxo

     

    Not at all surprising since the Senna is downforce optimized for the track.  Downforce increases drag which, of course, requires additional power to overcome.  


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Why is Senna slower 0-30 and 0-60.  No drag there...


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Ya, it's weird.


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Grant:

    Why is Senna slower 0-30 and 0-60.  No drag there...

    There’s always drag if there is a forward velocity component plus the frontal area, including parts of the rear wing is greater than the 720 as well as a greater drag coefficient for the Senna means more overall drag.  Sometimes, stickier tires and/or differences in gearing and/or angular momentum of the wheels can add fractions of a second in acceleration times.

     


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Drag has negligible effect in this test evidenced by the Senna powering ahead 60-100mph, The weight should be more important for 0-30 and 0-60. I guess the issue here is that this car in this test did not match Mclaren's official numbers which are

    0-100kph 2.8s, 0-200 6.8s and 0-300kph 17.5s

    I'm thinking maybe the tyres were cold yes


    --

     

     

    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    2018 McLaren 720S 

    993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    TB993tt:

    Drag has negligible effect in this test evidenced by the Senna powering ahead 60-100mph, The weight should be more important for 0-30 and 0-60. I guess the issue here is that this car in this test did not match Mclaren's official numbers which are

    0-100kph 2.8s, 0-200 6.8s and 0-300kph 17.5s

    I'm thinking maybe the tyres were cold yes

    However adaptive aerodynamic devices change the drag profile dependent on vehicle speed.  Aerodynamic effects start  under 30 mph and can, along with rolling resistance, are the factors, unless, as you stated cold tires, come into play,


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    CGX car nut:
    Grant:

    Why is Senna slower 0-30 and 0-60.  No drag there...

    There’s always drag if there is a forward velocity component plus the frontal area, including parts of the rear wing is greater than the 720 as well as a greater drag coefficient for the Senna means more overall drag.  Sometimes, stickier tires and/or differences in gearing and/or angular momentum of the wheels can add fractions of a second in acceleration times.

     

    The difference in drag between these cars cannot possibly account for the acceleration differences 0-30 and 0-60.  Aero drag is a cube function of speed.  So the drag at 30 mph is 216th (6 x 6 x 6) of what it is at 180 mph...


    --

     

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Grant:
    CGX car nut:
    Grant:

    Why is Senna slower 0-30 and 0-60.  No drag there...

    There’s always drag if there is a forward velocity component plus the frontal area, including parts of the rear wing is greater than the 720 as well as a greater drag coefficient for the Senna means more overall drag.  Sometimes, stickier tires and/or differences in gearing and/or angular momentum of the wheels can add fractions of a second in acceleration times.

     

    The difference in drag between these cars cannot possibly account for the acceleration differences 0-30 and 0-60.  Aero drag is a cube function of speed.  So the drag at 30 mph is 216th (6 x 6 x 6) of what it is at 180 mph...


    --

     

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    True but the comparison is the resultant drag on the Senna versus the 720.  If the resultant drag is higher on the Senna when compared with the 720, that can account for the differences in acceleration times.  


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    I understand that.  But the difference which may be significant at 180 mph is 1/216th as large at 30mph and not a significant factor - totally swamped by all the other variables, including 1 psi difference of tire pressure and what the driver had for lunch.


    --

     

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Grant:

    I understand that.  But the difference which may be significant at 180 mph is 1/216th as large at 30mph and not a significant factor - totally swamped by all the other variables, including 1 psi difference of tire pressure and what the driver had for lunch.


    --

     

     

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    With active aerodynamics, the drag and lift coefficients change of the range of speed.   That makes comparisons difficult as the Senna doesn’t have the same coefficients at higher speeds.  Plus this car is optimized for track where 0-60 mph is less of a concern than for a street car. Put the two cars on a road course and the Senna will be significantly quicker. 


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    McLaren didnt like the video

    It was deleted from Autocar channel.


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

      Could be cold tires or different gearing or just different tires. Maybe just poor reaction time - not certain how this was timed. 


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Leawood911:

      Could be cold tires or different gearing or just different tires. Maybe just poor reaction time - not certain how this was timed. 

    Certainly f all to do with aero at those low speeds Smiley 


    --

     

     

    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    2018 McLaren 720S 

    993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    TB993tt:
    Leawood911:

      Could be cold tires or different gearing or just different tires. Maybe just poor reaction time - not certain how this was timed. 

    Certainly f all to do with aero at those low speeds Smiley 

    Better tell the WRC that they are doing it wrong.


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    We played with one this weekend on track and the guy who really played with it is a racecar pilot 

    It is the next thing after a true racecar. A radical with a legal plate and 10 engines indecision

    Unbelievable. No body roll and incredible corner speed. angel

    Just a pain outside the track and very harsh on suspension. Really impressed. kiss


    --

    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual, 991 GT3 2014(sold)

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    CGX car nut:
    TB993tt:
    Leawood911:

      Could be cold tires or different gearing or just different tires. Maybe just poor reaction time - not certain how this was timed. 

    Certainly f all to do with aero at those low speeds Smiley 

    Better tell the WRC that they are doing it wrong.

    Pretty sure the WRC has not installed aero devices for operation < 30mph...


    --

    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi


    Re: P15/Senna -- Yuck

    Grant:
    CGX car nut:
    TB993tt:
    Leawood911:

      Could be cold tires or different gearing or just different tires. Maybe just poor reaction time - not certain how this was timed. 

    Certainly f all to do with aero at those low speeds Smiley 

    Better tell the WRC that they are doing it wrong.

    Pretty sure the WRC has not installed aero devices for operation < 30mph...

    Check again.  



     
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