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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    d997h:
    KresoF1:

    Well... I am becoming a strong beliver in conspiracy theory here.

    What to do now? Group Tesla buy or Corvette buy?

     angry 

    I am not into conspiracy, but it is hard for me to understand and believe that VW group would be the only car manufacturer affected ?  I certainly do not have an engineering background, still, all the "other" world car producers are sound and safe ??? Strange...

    This is starting to remind me of the financial crisis in 2007-2008. It all began small, but soon snowballed into a major clusterf'k were everyone was involved and entangled in each other. This "engine crisis" is starting to take the same route... VW is for sure not alone.


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Ferdie:

    Well, let me go back that far...  indecision

    Dang! Smiley


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Heard the first commercial on the radio if you are a VW owner and want some compensation:

    http://tdilawyers.com/

     


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.

    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Ferdie:

    Well, let me go back that far...  indecision

    The GM case was different. They still met the EPA required tests. They just shut their emissions control off when driving.

    VW cannot meet emissions requirements period.


    --
    Porsche owner since 1975.

    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    The Volkswagen cars do meet the EPA standards when the emission system is enacted too. 


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    12191588_946731762031187_5306734959517349533_n.jpg


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | White | Full Bucket Seats | Sport Chrono
    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | Sport Chrono | SPASM


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    What a crap cartoon for simpletons. If you believe it's premise, I hope you do well in grade school this year.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JimFlat6:

    What a crap cartoon for simpletons. If you believe it's premise, I hope you do well in grade school this year.

    Unfortunately many nations do see the US as the big bully-boy, interfering in other countries affairs and trying to exert influence where it isn't wanted, and this does the country much damage in international relations. Whether it is justified or not is up for debate.


    --

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    By that argument, VW should not be culpable for any illegal activity. Last time Germany tried that moral standard british Lancasters had to bomb them at night and US b17s had to bomb them during the day.

    We all know that Germany faces several popular moral quandaries. Be.Green, but get mad about getting caught cheating at emissions laws. Claim they aren't anti semitic but let in a million Arabs who likely are. The German govt monitors neo Nazis but will now be also publishing a. annotated version of mein kampf in January. They speak platitudes about being a responsible power but have no real military strength to back it up. They blabber about European unity and consensus but actually want to dictate policies. They whine about nsa spying on them while their own Bnd spys on their allies including the US according to  Der Spiegel. As they stew in their own juices, no doubt they will only complain more.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    JimFlat6:

    By that argument, VW should not be culpable for any illegal activity. Last time Germany tried that moral standard british Lancasters had to bomb them at night and US b17s had to bomb them during the day.

    We all know that Germany faces several popular moral quandaries. Be.Green, but get mad about getting caught cheating at emissions laws. Claim they aren't anti semitic but let in a million Arabs who likely are. The German govt monitors neo Nazis but will now be also publishing a. annotated version of mein kampf in January. They speak platitudes about being a responsible power but have no real military strength to back it up. They blabber about European unity and consensus but actually want to dictate policies. They whine about nsa spying on them while their own Bnd spys on their allies including the US according to  Der Spiegel. As they stew in their own juices, no doubt they will only complain more.

    The BND has always worked hand in hand with the CIA/NSA and who would be surprised by that other than the media (and apparently the majority of the population who never cared about BND and Co.), especially since the BND has been basically built up from scratch by the CIA. Smiley

    The BND spied on activities of US companies or for example French companies, mostly because it was part of their collaboration with US intelligence but of course this doesn't change the fact that they did.

    Europe is currently in a deep crisis, politically and emotionally. Unfortunately it doesn't seem to get better and the refugee crisis has worsened things a lot. Many blame the US for causing this crisis and the Russian media (and the so called Putin trolls, part of Russia's propaganda machine) have actually done an excellent job to affirm this belief. Do not forget that almost 8% of the German population has a Russian immigrant background. Most of these people are still watching/reading Russian media and they aren't too fond of the US. Same goes to the many muslims living in Germany, almost 6% of the population (Germany has actually more muslims than the UK).

    This is valid for other European countries as well, especially France but others too.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    dreamcar:
    JimFlat6:

    What a crap cartoon for simpletons. If you believe it's premise, I hope you do well in grade school this year.

    Unfortunately many nations do see the US as the big bully-boy, interfering in other countries affairs and trying to exert influence where it isn't wanted, and this does the country much damage in international relations. Whether it is justified or not is up for debate.

    This is something US politicians still don't seem to understand. Actually, under Obama, the relationship with the US has worsened, which is quite surprising. Europe is essential for the US but apparently Obama sees the future in Asia. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
     

    ........Europe is essential for the US but apparently Obama sees the future in Asia. Smiley

    Probably because China owns the US these days- he who pays the piper calls the tune  Smiley


    --

     

    Porsche Boxster GTS Carrara white / Skoda Octavia Mk.3 daily drive

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    DETROIT - Volkswagen AG will offer credit cards worth $1,000, of which half is to be spent at VW and Audi dealerships, to U.S. owners of certain diesel models that do not comply with government emissions standards, VW's U.S. subsidiary said on Monday.

    The automaker said eligible U.S. owners of nearly 500,000 VW and Audi models equipped with 2.0 liter TDI diesel engines can apply to receive a $500 prepaid Visa card and a $500 dealership card, as well as three years of free roadside assistance services.

    The program could cost VW nearly $500 million, half of which could flow directly to dealers.

     

    ----------

    I doubt this will cut it, but every customer who says 'yes' will be signing away their right to further compensation I suppose.

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Not a good offer if you ask me. VW should be more generous, maybe after consulting with the EPA and asking them what they could do to make everyone happy (I am serious about that).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Here's Bob Lutz talking about it:

     

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/car-culture/a27197/bob-lutz-vw-diesel-fiasco/


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:

    Not a good offer if you ask me. VW should be more generous, maybe after consulting with the EPA and asking them what they could do to make everyone happy (I am serious about that).

    How should "someone" answer this question ? What do you think would be "more generous" ? Do not get me wrong with these questions - they are more of a rhetorical nature, I just find it very hard for someone responsible to come up with whatever compensation. Therefore, I regard this move from VW rather as a  gesture as they will be aware that VW cannot make everybody happy...


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    d997h:
    RC:

    Not a good offer if you ask me. VW should be more generous, maybe after consulting with the EPA and asking them what they could do to make everyone happy (I am serious about that).

    How should "someone" answer this question ? What do you think would be "more generous" ? Do not get me wrong with these questions - they are more of a rhetorical nature, I just find it very hard for someone responsible to come up with whatever compensation. Therefore, I regard this move from VW rather as a  gesture as they will be aware that VW cannot make everybody happy...

    This is why I suggested VW should discuss this with the EPA and find a solution which makes (almost) everyone happy.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Well, what would be the loss of resale value if someone were to sell one of these cars today vs. just before the emissions cheating was discovered? That's what a fair offer would start at. I'm guessing, especially for newer models, it would be more than $1000.

    This is an attempt to limit liability. I think it's very likely that anyone accepting the $1000 will have to sign a waiver of further liability.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    d997h:
    RC:

    Not a good offer if you ask me. VW should be more generous, maybe after consulting with the EPA and asking them what they could do to make everyone happy (I am serious about that).

    How should "someone" answer this question ? What do you think would be "more generous" ? Do not get me wrong with these questions - they are more of a rhetorical nature, I just find it very hard for someone responsible to come up with whatever compensation. Therefore, I regard this move from VW rather as a  gesture as they will be aware that VW cannot make everybody happy...

    This is why I suggested VW should discuss this with the EPA and find a solution which makes (almost) everyone happy.

    That is a separate issue.  The EPA, CARB and the Department of Justice will assess fines and penalties on Volkswagen for its blatant violations of the Clean Air Act.  

    This gesture by Volkswagen to its U.S . based customers is an appeasement for customer duress and potential loss of value to the vehicles during the recall period.  Currently, owners of Volkswagen TDi products that violate the standards can not be sold through any dealer network; they can only be sold through private party transactions.  However, there is a possibility that the new owners may not be able to register and license a vehicle sold through a private party transaction since that vehicle does not meet federal motor vehicle standards.  

    In many cases, the amount provided by Volkswagen will be of greater compensation than what an affected owner would receive as part of a class-action settlement.   


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:

    Well, what would be the loss of resale value if someone were to sell one of these cars today vs. just before the emissions cheating was discovered? That's what a fair offer would start at. I'm guessing, especially for newer models, it would be more than $1000.

    This is an attempt to limit liability. I think it's very likely that anyone accepting the $1000 will have to sign a waiver of further liability.

    I heard on the news this morning that this isn't the case..

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    As this  saga continues to unfold, it will be interesting to watch which brands VW sells to cover the costs of the fines, penalties and repairs. Perhaps Porsche is carved out  via an IPO. 


    --

    2014 Porsche 991 C4S Black with Sports Design Package,  2013 Porsche Cayenne Dark Blue Metallic, New York


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    CGX car nut:
    RC:
    d997h:
    RC:

    Not a good offer if you ask me. VW should be more generous, maybe after consulting with the EPA and asking them what they could do to make everyone happy (I am serious about that).

    How should "someone" answer this question ? What do you think would be "more generous" ? Do not get me wrong with these questions - they are more of a rhetorical nature, I just find it very hard for someone responsible to come up with whatever compensation. Therefore, I regard this move from VW rather as a  gesture as they will be aware that VW cannot make everybody happy...

    This is why I suggested VW should discuss this with the EPA and find a solution which makes (almost) everyone happy.

    That is a separate issue.  The EPA, CARB and the Department of Justice will assess fines and penalties on Volkswagen for its blatant violations of the Clean Air Act.  

    This gesture by Volkswagen to its U.S . based customers is an appeasement for customer duress and potential loss of value to the vehicles during the recall period.  Currently, owners of Volkswagen TDi products that violate the standards can not be sold through any dealer network; they can only be sold through private party transactions.  However, there is a possibility that the new owners may not be able to register and license a vehicle sold through a private party transaction since that vehicle does not meet federal motor vehicle standards.  

    In many cases, the amount provided by Volkswagen will be of greater compensation than what an affected owner would receive as part of a class-action settlement.   

    You're correct. Thee car cannot be sold since it does not meet Federal or probably State guidelines. A private transaction may work since the license can be transferred with the sale. However, at some point the buyer will have to pass an emission test to renew the registration. Thus, in all likelihood the car cannot be sold. Failing a fix, how do you compensate for that?Smiley


    --

    Of little, to make much: That is the dream of a human life.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    nberry:
     

    You're correct. Thee car cannot be sold since it does not meet Federal or probably State guidelines. A private transaction may work since the license can be transferred with the sale. However, at some point the buyer will have to pass an emission test to renew the registration. Thus, in all likelihood the car cannot be sold. Failing a fix, how do you compensate for that?Smiley

    They don't seem to have any problems passing emissions tests. Smiley


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    nberry:
    CGX car nut:
    RC:
    d997h:
    RC:

    Not a good offer if you ask me. VW should be more generous, maybe after consulting with the EPA and asking them what they could do to make everyone happy (I am serious about that).

    How should "someone" answer this question ? What do you think would be "more generous" ? Do not get me wrong with these questions - they are more of a rhetorical nature, I just find it very hard for someone responsible to come up with whatever compensation. Therefore, I regard this move from VW rather as a  gesture as they will be aware that VW cannot make everybody happy...

    This is why I suggested VW should discuss this with the EPA and find a solution which makes (almost) everyone happy.

    That is a separate issue.  The EPA, CARB and the Department of Justice will assess fines and penalties on Volkswagen for its blatant violations of the Clean Air Act.  

    This gesture by Volkswagen to its U.S . based customers is an appeasement for customer duress and potential loss of value to the vehicles during the recall period.  Currently, owners of Volkswagen TDi products that violate the standards can not be sold through any dealer network; they can only be sold through private party transactions.  However, there is a possibility that the new owners may not be able to register and license a vehicle sold through a private party transaction since that vehicle does not meet federal motor vehicle standards.  

    In many cases, the amount provided by Volkswagen will be of greater compensation than what an affected owner would receive as part of a class-action settlement.   

    You're correct. Thee car cannot be sold since it does not meet Federal or probably State guidelines. A private transaction may work since the license can be transferred with the sale. However, at some point the buyer will have to pass an emission test to renew the registration. Thus, in all likelihood the car cannot be sold. Failing a fix, how do you compensate for that?Smiley

    There is a fix for the emission issue; however, the questions are how will the fix affect reliability, drivability and fuel economy.  As one has written before, the EA189 diesel engine is capable of meeting the EPA Tier 2 Bin 5 emission limits when in "test" mode.  The question becomes why did some engineers feel the need to defeat the system for on-the-roard use?


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I haven't seen a report on this in English yet, but VW has apparently released the information that it has a solution for the non-compliance problems for most of the 1.6 and 2.0 diesel engines for RoW markets, which has supposedly been approved in principle by the relevant German government agency (KBA) for the necessary recall campaign. 

    Final type approval measurements are being carried out for the individual models concerned to confirm. 

    http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Abgas-Skandal-VW-Umruestungsplan-verbluefft-Experten-3024584.html?wt_mc=rss.ho.beitrag.rd...

    The claimed solution is almost implausibly simple and cheap to make and install, and will supposedly not negatively affect engine performance or fuel consumption beyond the tolerances already allowed for the test cycles. (The doubt implied by stressing the words in bold text is my personal view). 

    This solution will not fulfil requirements for the North American market, where the test cycle and legal requirements are different. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    I don't know about all of RoW, but I've read that it allows them to meet Euro5 emissions standards. It doesn't meet NA standards, and I don't know about other countries, like South Korea, which just ordered a recall of ~125,000 vehicles.

    I saw a report on this on Car and Driver this morning: http://blog.caranddriver.com/volkswagen-details-fix-for-ea189-diesel-in-europe-but-itll-be-more-complex-for-u-s/


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    fritz:

    I haven't seen a report on this in English yet, but VW has apparently released the information that it has a solution for the non-compliance problems for most of the 1.6 and 2.0 diesel engines for RoW markets, which has supposedly been approved in principle by the relevant German government agency (KBA) for the necessary recall campaign. 

    Final type approval measurements are being carried out for the individual models concerned to confirm. 

    http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Abgas-Skandal-VW-Umruestungsplan-verbluefft-Experten-3024584.html?wt_mc=rss.ho.beitrag.rd...

    The claimed solution is almost implausibly simple and cheap to make and install, and will supposedly not negatively affect engine performance or fuel consumption beyond the tolerances already allowed for the test cycles. (The doubt implied by stressing the words in bold text is my personal view). 

    This solution will not fulfil requirements for the North American market, where the test cycle and legal requirements are different. 

    I kind of have the feeling that German customers will be ripped off (of course this is just a wild guess) because I doubt that the cars will maintain their initial power/torque output. I may be wrong but I have a bad feeling about this, however VW can always use the 5% deviation "excuse" and of course it is difficult to prove the initial power, once the car was at the dealership for the modification. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Ford Mustang GT500 Shelby SVT (2014), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    fritz:

    I haven't seen a report on this in English yet, but VW has apparently released the information that it has a solution for the non-compliance problems for most of the 1.6 and 2.0 diesel engines for RoW markets, which has supposedly been approved in principle by the relevant German government agency (KBA) for the necessary recall campaign. 

    Final type approval measurements are being carried out for the individual models concerned to confirm. 

    http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/Abgas-Skandal-VW-Umruestungsplan-verbluefft-Experten-3024584.html?wt_mc=rss.ho.beitrag.rd...

    The claimed solution is almost implausibly simple and cheap to make and install, and will supposedly not negatively affect engine performance or fuel consumption beyond the tolerances already allowed for the test cycles. (The doubt implied by stressing the words in bold text is my personal view). 

    This solution will not fulfil requirements for the North American market, where the test cycle and legal requirements are different. 

    I kind of have the feeling that German customers will be ripped off (of course this is just a wild guess) because I doubt that the cars will maintain their initial power/torque output. I may be wrong but I have a bad feeling about this, however VW can always use the 5% deviation "excuse" and of course it is difficult to prove the initial power, once the car was at the dealership for the modification. 

    The 5% deviation (in power output) is part of what I meant by "the tolerances already allowed for the test cycles". Tolerances will similarly be allowed for emission values. By my understanding of the information released by VW, the new values relevant for the engine type approval tests are expected to be within the legally acceptable tolerance bands for the values originally declared when the model was first released for sale.
    The declared maximum power is only generated at wide open throttle and at one specific engine speed; drivers would not really be capable of telling if there have been any minor changes in that value. I also suspect that maintaining the original max power figure with compliant software is not the biggest problem anyway.  
    I'd be more concerned about whether the throttle response deteriorates under transient load and speed conditions, which may need to be the case to meet emissions requirements over the whole type-approval-relevant engine speed/load range. This might be subjectively noticeable to a driver even if the type approval figures are maintained. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Interessing (German Magazin): http://www.wiwo.de/unternehmen/auto/abgasskandal-was-die-eu-kommission-2012-ueber-abgasmanipulationen-wusste/12642784.html

    Probably not only Volkswagen wanted to hide some kind of technology


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Volkswagen being sued by the U.S. Department of Justice and the EPA:  

    http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2016-01-04/volkswagen-sued-by-u-s-for-cheating-on-emissions-standards

    This could prove very entertaining over the next few months.

     

     


     
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