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    Bilstein B16 Damptronic: A Must For The Turbo

    After much questioning and reading, I've decided to go ahead with what I think is the most important upgrade for the Turbo, IMHO more important than wheels/exhaust/power: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics. My rambling will follow and any suspension expert or professional please chime in and correct me as needed. This is a hopelessly complicated issue and I could only hope to be "near accurate" with my web based research .

    While I have felt that the Turbo's stock suspension is too soft *for me* (and apparently a number of other drivers, and some trustworthy reviewers of magazines big and small--I hope someone at PAG is reading this), resulting in too much leaning/rolling in corners and squatting under full throttle, a recent test drive in the GT2 hastened this process. The goal is not to turn my Turbo into a GT3/GT2--that will be the job of my second Porsche, the next gen. GT3 with no RMS leak, PDK, PSM, and more power , but definitely to take it in that direction while maintaining the Turbo's incomparable daily-drive ability.

    It came down to GMG Spring vs. Bilstein. The GMG spring is progressive, meaning initial response is soft, then the spring becomes stiff as it compresses more. While people's opinions vary, I've found that progressive spring is not necessarily the best solution. In addition, I don't think I would like this type of behavior, the initial softness of it. (Google "linear progressive spring" and read on your own if you are interested.)
    In contrast, the Bilstein is a stacked springs (linear main spring + tender tender) setup, AFAIK a more advanced, costly, and desirable solution.

    In addition I am hoping that the PSS10 damper would improve upon the stock damper. My impression of the stock damper is that Normal is too soft, and Firm has poor bump management, causing the rear wheel to lose contact with the road when there are bumps at high speed. Mid corner high speed bumps literally cause the rear to walk/shift sideway.

    In other words by firming the damper to reduce pitch/roll in corners (slow response), the stock PASM system I think somehow has sacrificed bump management (fast response) and causes poor behavior unless road is glass smooth. I am hoping the PSS10 damper will do this better. (BTW, the GT2 Normal setting is firm but doesn't feel anything like the jittery and choppy character of the Turbo's Firm. I don't know why & how, but the 2 are very different from each other, decidedly in favor of the GT2 IMHO, based on my test drive.)

    Lowering: IMO, the law of physics implies this alone might be one of the most significant contribution to improved handling, besides stiffening. Lower is better, and since the cost is only $150 , I am going to drop the car 1 inch and see how it affects me in daily driving. This is another area where the Bilstein has clear advantage over the GMG Spring: ride height is adjustable.

    Anyway, enough of the rambling, here's what showed up at my doorstep today.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Can,

    Based on the time it took you to reach your decision, you probably should start researching the suspension for your next car now, so you can enjoy it for a greater length of time

    Seriously, you can't go wrong on any suspension upgrade as the 997 turbo definitely needs help.

    BTW while you're reworking your suspension you may want to consider the sway bar upgrade too. And a corner balance, while you're having the alignment done it is money well spent IMHO.

    Let us all know what you think when you're finally on the road with a proper suspension.

    Larry

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Some numbers I gathered during my fact finding mission . I couldn't find any spring rate for 997 cars. Note also that the GT3 is 300+ lbs lighter when comparing spring rates.

    Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics
    Front 285 Main, 115 Tender
    Rear 570 Main, 145 Tender
    More or less effective 285/570; tenders are fully compressed. I am impressed with the stiffness that Bilstein chose. Note how close the rates are to the 996 GT3's, admittedly a much lighter car.

    Stock 996 TT:
    Front: 187
    Rear: 340

    Stock 997 TT: No numbers available, but perhaps should be close to 996 TT numbers above?
    Front: Conical shape means progressive?
    Rear: Linear?

    Stock 996 GT3:
    Front: 225 Linear
    Rear: 550 Progressive

    Of the springs, GMG Springs are apparently stiffer than Techart, which is in turn stiffer than H&R. Note however, that some (or all?) of these springs are progressive, meaning that they are initially soft, then become stiffer as they compress. For obvious reason, none of the spring vendors reveal their products' parameters.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    The Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics will be a huge improvement over stock. I don't know how the Bilstein Coilovers "technically" compare with installing lowering springs but I would think the Bilstein's would be the superior choice. That is the first and only mod I have done to my car and it made a huge difference in handling, steering, feel, and enjoyment. You will be happy with your choice.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    One thing I question though is are these dramatic changes everyone is reporting more to do with the change of alignment, or the Bilstein's?! Most people have them done together so it's very difficult to say.

    What I can say for sure is that my handling changed dramatically just with a 'fast-road' alignment. Steering was sharper, and the car felt like it was dancing around corners.

    The Damptronic's are currently high on my wish-list but I have my doubt of any resulting significant changes from the feel of the car as I have it now.


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Hello Alex,

    2 essentially unrelated modifications. From my 4 Step Guide to Nirvana post below:

    Number 1, alignment change, the most "significant/popular" one being more negative front camber, deals with the car's understeer/oversteer behavior in corners.

    Number 2, coilover change, is all things considered a ***much*** more significant and involving modification. Different spring rates and, hopefully, "better" damper will influence at the least pitch (front to back motion with braking and acceleration), roll (side to side motion in corners), and bump management (road surface imperfections such as holes/bumps). You will feel this change every second that you drive the car. If anything, I would think your car with its monster power/torque mod would benefit from the Biltstein even more than mine.

    If my guess is correct, that the spring rates of 997TT approximate 996TT's, note the significant increase in spring rates of the Bilstein vs. stock.
    The only question is how it affects the car's ability as a daily driver. Judging from people's response, not bad at all.


    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    For those following this thread and new to suspension mods, let me summarize what I've learned in case you are interested. There are 4 common mods that people have added to the Turbo, with number 4 probably the least frequent:

    1. Front camber adjustment to reduce push/understeer. Stock is -.4 or so, a common target is about -1.3.

    2. Lowering and stiffening the car. 2 ways to do this: With coilover such as Bilstein, or lowering springs such as Techart, H&R, GMG. Among the springs, pay attention to the spring rates, no one wants to tell me actual numbers but I believe H&R might be lower than stock, Techart is next, than GMG is the stiffest.

    3. Stiffer Anti-Roll Bar (the drop links that connect the anti-roll bar to the suspension are sometimes also replaced).

    4. Cup pieces. The basic idea is that stock parts use rubber/softer links for comfort, cup pieces use stiffer ones supposedly to reduce suspension geometry change in corners, and for better handling & steering feedback, etc. The 4 that I know are
    ...Rear toe control arm, aka toe link. I believe this is the most commonly replaced.
    ...Rear upper control arms, aka dog bones.
    ...Front thrust arm bushing
    ...Front A-arms monoball (last thing to mod, could be noisy)

    How much you would like to do is of course personal choice. Every step will have trade-offs, you are basically moving away from daily driver towards GT3. If I go ahead with any or all of these steps, surely I will have reports. Good luck and mod on!
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    One thing I question though is are these dramatic changes everyone is reporting more to do with the change of alignment, or the Bilstein's?! Most people have them done together so it's very difficult to say.

    What I can say for sure is that my handling changed dramatically just with a 'fast-road' alignment. Steering was sharper, and the car felt like it was dancing around corners.

    The Damptronic's are currently high on my wish-list but I have my doubt of any resulting significant changes from the feel of the car as I have it now.




    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    One thing I question though is are these dramatic changes everyone is reporting more to do with the change of alignment, or the Bilstein's?! Most people have them done together so it's very difficult to say.

    What I can say for sure is that my handling changed dramatically just with a 'fast-road' alignment. Steering was sharper, and the car felt like it was dancing around corners.

    The Damptronic's are currently high on my wish-list but I have my doubt of any resulting significant changes from the feel of the car as I have it now.





    I did not go as aggressive on some on alignment settings, leaving mine almost stock as I did not want to increase treadwear too badly.

    The improvement was still significant. The "pogo" feel was gone.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    One thing I question though is are these dramatic changes everyone is reporting more to do with the change of alignment, or the Bilstein's?! Most people have them done together so it's very difficult to say.

    What I can say for sure is that my handling changed dramatically just with a 'fast-road' alignment. Steering was sharper, and the car felt like it was dancing around corners.

    The Damptronic's are currently high on my wish-list but I have my doubt of any resulting significant changes from the feel of the car as I have it now.




    I tend to agree with you. Most guys probably don't go to the track (in fast run groups) so you're relying on anecdotal reports from driving on the twisty public roads...not that there's anything wrong with that....as Seinfeld said.
    My stock alignment was -.8/-1.5 f/r, I recently 'track aligned' it to -1.0/-2.0 f/r at stock ride ht with R cmpd tires. I find that is a really great track setup in sport mode, esp on a track like pocono or watkins glen. I could see a small additional benefit from some champion springs, but shock life will be shortened.
    To each his own, but I think if you properly aligned your car in stock trim the difference would be minimal at best on the track.
    C

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Turbo?

    Hi Can,
    So what alignment settings did you go for in the end? thanks
    Regards...

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Hi there POET,

    Following are the alignment settings used by eclou, one of rennteam's trusted resident experts on matters suspension, for his 997 Turbo. I believe these numbers are the same as those of the GT3 *street* alignment.

    Front
    Camber -1.2
    Caster 7.5
    Toe 0.04

    Rear
    Camber -1.6
    Toe 0.16

    BTW following are the stock Turbo settings. If you examine the 2 set of numbers you could see that the main change from stock Turbo setting is the front camber; stock is -.4, he uses -1.2.
    I would think if you track the car extensively you could make the front camber even more aggressive (more negative), and others (TT Surgeon, Larry, Atomic, etc.) use slightly different numbers, but -1.2 is a good start for a street-track combination car.


    Stock 997 Turbo

    Front
    Camber -0.4 to -0.9
    Caster 7.4 to 8.4
    Toe 0.00 to 0.08

    Rear
    Camber -1.4 to -1.9
    Toe 0.08 to 0.25

    And followed is the alignment sheet from someone's (gradyex?) car. I am posting it here because it shows the "target" stock alignment settings of the Turbo.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Hi Can, thanks for this... I have more or less the same front adjustments for the Pss10 (-1.2/-7.1/0.04)....but the backs are -2.3. Don't really understand why. Anyways I will be changing to your advised settings. Cheers!
    Regards.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Some more data points while waiting for installation. As always, expert opinions and corrections appreciated. BTW, how a car's suspension should feel is highly subjective in nature; if you think the Turbo is perfect as is, please skip this entire thread.

    I called Bilstein re. ride height for PSS10 as there is a potential problem with hitting the damper's internal bump stop if you lower the car too much. The official recommendation is that ride heights be reduced 10-30 mm front, and 5-25mm rear. It's interesting that they do NOT recommend stock ride heights. That is, if you are using PSS10, you should lower the car at least 10mm.

    You also might recall I was trying to decide between lowering springs and PSS10. A couple reasons that cause me to choose PSS10 (whether it's the correct decision I will never know, and it doesn't look like an extended AB comparison test drive will be coming any time soon):

    1. AFAIK both the stock springs and the lowering springs I considered are progressive, not linear. Meaning initial response is soft, then stiffens with more compression. This setup is great for a street car, but may not be so for a performance oriented car. The PSS10 uses a stacked springs setup (each coilover has a main linear spring plus a tender/helper spring), which I hope will reduce the wallowing that the car does.

    2. The damper in PSS10 is a monotube design, versus twin-tube for the stock. For some basic reading material: http://www.sportcompactcarweb.com/tech/0607_sccp_making_it_stick_part_6/index.html . Besides being technically better, I also think changing the damper of the stock system is a good start. Personally, I always feel there is something not quite right with the FIRM setting of stock PASM. It causes the car to feel jittery and choppy. (Take this with a grain of salt as I am the odd one who remains highly skeptical of Porsche's PASM as currently implemented. I think a single dampening rate that matches the spring is the best solution.)

    I will find out in a couple days whether my amateur web research has guided me correctly.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I tend to take a long time for questioning, comparing, and studying a mod before making the jump--I hope that much is obvious from my multiple posts on wheel, brake, exhaust, etc., so I hope this thread would carry more weight than the run-of-the-mill internet sensationalism . To cut to the chase... my recommendation of the Bilstein is UNEQUIVOCAL. It has awakened my stock Turbo from its ponderous sleep. Without question, it has transformed the feel of this car.

    My test drive of the GT2 a few weeks ago left me in a state of shock . I could not believe how 2 cars with so many similar suspension components could feel so different from each other. I had thought previously that the Turbo feels too soft, even taken into consideration that it's designed for the street; the test drive left no doubt. The Turbo feels like a Mercedes next to the GT2 and I do think (YMMV) Porsche has taken the Turbo a little too far towards street friendliness.

    More to follow in a few days, including the system's single negative point. In the mean time, if (and only if) you are bothered by the Turbo's lean in corners, if you think the rear end wallows too much, if you think the car squats too much when throttle is opened and dives too much when brake is applied, ***RUN***, don't walk, to the nearest Bilstein dealer !! I would rank this mod above PCCB, power, exhaust, and wheel.

    I bought mine from Vivid Racing http://www.vividracing.com/catalog/index.php (excellent price & service, prompt shipping) and the system was installed by a trusted & rather well known Porsche shop in Los Angeles, Lucent http://www.lucentmotor.com/ .

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Cannga - I am sold, but I am not going to make any transitions until someone (whether it is yourself or others) gives the double thumbs up on what exact settings to use with them.

    I am tempted to just get Cargraphic to fit mine as they have their own tried and tested RSC setup for the Turbo - but then that means PSS9's and a LARGE bill.

    Would be half the price to order them myself and get them fitted locally.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Sure Alex, I'll make it simple for you to spend your $$$ . Following is a note similar to the one that I handed to my shop. It was kept on the front seat of my car during installation.

    All parameters were chosen after much questioning and reading, and all are reasonably conservative requests. i.e. You are not doing anything crazy here. eclou has similar settings, sans anti-sway bar, and he has taken his car to 190 mph or whatever outrageous number that it was, so I think any question about this setting's stability has been satisfactorily answered.

    >>>>>>>>>>>>
    1. Please drop the ride height 20mm front and rear from stock.
    2. For alignment, please keep all values same as stock except front camber. Please change front camber to minus 1.2
    3. For the anti-sway bar, please set to full soft front, and full stiff rear.
    4. Please save old parts.
    5. Please test drive and advise.
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

    I do recommend the anti-sway bar, either H&R or GMG. I'll dig some information for you a little bit later. I believe that my mechanic also gave my car a little front toe out, and a little rear toe in (to decrease understeer and off-throttle oversteer, again a common GT3/GT2 practice and nothing crazy); this would be item number 6 and I'll ask him tomorrow exactly what values he used.

    The car now feels cat quick and alive. Remember you are going to feel more bumps, but the bumps will feel REAL good -- part of the driving experience . I was a little down before the installation, actually emailing my dealer for a GT3 slot--now canceled, as I was skeptical of how much the improvement could be, but now I am extremely happy and frankly am astounded how close my car has come to the feel of the GT2 (at a cost of course, it is no longer a great comfortable long distance cruiser).

    Don't know how this setup compares to the Cargraphic (which I suspect will be excellent also), but I should note supposedly the PSS10 was tested on an actual Turbo by Bilstein. In effect you are buying Bilstein's vision of what the Turbo should feel like.

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    Cannga - I am sold, but I am not going to make any transitions until someone (whether it is yourself or others) gives the double thumbs up on what exact settings to use with them.

    I am tempted to just get Cargraphic to fit mine as they have their own tried and tested RSC setup for the Turbo - but then that means PSS9's and a LARGE bill.

    Would be half the price to order them myself and get them fitted locally.


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    For anyone unfamiliar with basic suspension setup, the following rambling might help you to get acquainted and understand my comparison of PSS10 vs. stock PASM later. Keep in mind my day job has nothing to do with auto mechanics and therefore please take this discussion with an extra large size grain of salt. Expert opinions and corrections welcome as always.

    It's probably easier to understand suspension setup if you categorize it to 2 primary parameters:
    1. Pitch and roll control. Pitch is front to back vertical motion; roll is side to side. More stiffness means less pitch/roll.
    2. Bump management. How the car absorbs bumps on street.
    If you think about it, 1 and 2 actually represent handling and ride respectively. Increasing 1 affects 2 adversely.

    The coilover has 2 main components, a spring and a damper. The spring is the prime determinant of how stiff you want your car to be. While the damper is there primarily to dampen the spring's motion, it *also* affects stiffness. There are then 2 ways that the coilover's overall stiffness could be affected:
    A. By changing spring rate.
    B. By changing the dampening rate.

    Bilstein increases stiffness the old fashioned way: by using a stiffer spring. That is, A above.

    PASM increases suspension stiffness by increasing the dampening rate, B above. From my questioning of people who set up suspension for a living, this is not necessarily the best way.
    In addition, in standard practice the dampening rate is usually set to *match* a particular spring: That is, there is one "correct" dampening rate for a particular spring in a particular car. In PASM, you are basically using 2 different dampening rates, vastly different as a matter of fact, for a single spring. This implies one of the 2 settings involves a compromise; in the Turbo I think this is the FIRM setting.
    Lastly, I think that to affect large change in suspension stiffness, the dampening rate of the FIRM setting has to be increased so much that it overwhelms and makes the car behaves as if there is almost no suspension flexibility left. When the car hits a bump at high speed, the tire tends to lose contact (airborne) easily. In a mid corner bump, this would make the rear end "walk" laterally.

    The point is this: I hope now you could see that even though Bilstein PSS10 and PASM- FIRM both increase stiffness; the methods they use are dissimilar (spring increase versus damper increase) and therefore their "character" when it comes to bump absorption and pitch/roll control are completely different from one another.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    My impression of the Bilstein is forthcoming, but it's interesting to note that next year's Turbo is rumored to have its PASM re-tuned.
    I continue to think (only as a consumer with no professional suspension experience) that PASM as currently implemented is suboptimal. I hope that next generation Turbo would have either:
    1. A one spring, one dampening rate setup. No electronic adjustment (market-driven gimmick? ).
    2. PASM with more than two levels of dampening rate. The current two-level system IMO has one setting that is too soft, and the other one so hard it leaves no suspension flexibility left.

    But I am not an expert; even if PAG is reading these forums, I am sure amateurs' complaints would fall on deaf ears anyhow.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur



    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    I got quoted Pounds4k for parts and fitting. That nearly $8k!!

    Think I will be waiting until I get these as I have a wedding to pay for in a month.

    Shame as they would have been great on the Swiss twisty scenic roads for our road-trip.

    How are they on a motorway though now Cannga?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Cannga,the car looks great with the lowered stance. I hope you are enjoying the new drive and handling characteristics. The PSS10's made a huge difference in the fun factor on my TT.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Same Q to you then please AK - how are they on long motorway/highway trips (1000s of miles)?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Alex, I have never taken the TT on a long trip so I really can't offer comments on that. However on the weekend fun runs, the car is much more exciting to drive. The car is notably more responsive in the steering and handling department and gives up nothing on comfort compared to stock. The ride may be a bit firmer but not as hard. I think the TT should have come with Bilstein coilovers from the factory. The lower stance really improves the look and handling characteristics of the car.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    Same Q to you then please AK - how are they on long motorway/highway trips (1000s of miles)?



    I can answer that. I've gone on several road trips with the Damptronics including a recent jaunt over 2,000 miles in length. They ride just fine on the highways in "normal" mode. In 'sport' mode it's a bit harsh but not unbearable. Perfect for those twisty bits though. I wouldn't hestitate to get the Damptronics because of that.

    Here's a youtube video of 3 997TTs ALL with Damptronics going through our favorite stretch on Hwy 1 in California.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ArgPweh7A0

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Here's a youtube video of 3 997TTs ALL with Damptronics going through our favorite stretch on Hwy 1 in California.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2ArgPweh7A0



    Wow, those roads are insanely twisty - I was getting dizzy just watching! Nice work.

    Thanks for the replies guys.

    Now I just need to get the price down somehow. I assume you US guys paid nowhere near $8k!

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Warning: If the Turbo suspension feels perfect to you, stop reading now. My "dissertation" is subjective in nature and might be upsetting. For me, one troubling thing about the Turbo is that besides the tremendous power and torque, over the long run, it's not a fun car to drive. The handling is a tad sloppy, IMO a result of the soft spring rates and the enigmatic PASM system. The steering is good but feels inferior to my 997 C2 in feel and feedback. My suspicion was confirmed after a test drive in the GT2: Porsche has elected to make the Turbo too much of a luxurious grand touring car. My baby feels like a Mercedes after a 35 mile drive in that incredible GT2; no kidding.

    What I've done to my car so far:
    1. Bilstein PSS10 with a height drop of 20mm.
    2. Street GT3 alignment, meaning a change of front camber from -.4 to -1.2.
    3. GMG anti-sway bar; set to full soft front, full stiff rear.
    These are common and fairly conservative changes so I am not blazing a trail here. You are basically buying Bilstein's vision of what a mostly street-use Turbo should feel like. Consider what they do for a living, this is not a bad place to start. Technically, with its mono-tube dampener and dual spring setup, the Bilstein PSS10 is an advanced design.

    While the effect of the sway bar is subtle, the PSS10 brings significant and easily noticeable changes. Some of these changes were expected-the Bilstein is no doubt geared more towards performance and its spring rates AFAIK are close to those of the GT2/GT3 class Porsche, others came as a surprise.

    Handling:
    While the stock Turbo could take simple corners with tremendous speed (as long as slow-in-fast-out is observed), when faced with combination curves, for example a fast S-shaped left-right combination, it staggers like a drunkard.
    That the rear of the car likes to "walk" laterally while cornering is not that big of a surprise; after all, the engine is hanging out back there. The problem I have is that there are considerable vertical motions as well. In fast & bumpy corners, the rear has a mind of its own, and that mind belongs to a mambo dancer.
    The Bilstein PSS10 and minor alignment change have completely transformed the Turbo's behavior. The suspension feels taut. Rear end motion is now 1000% better. In corners, problem with the stock car's tendency to understeer has markedly improved. Please trust me on this (grin)--I used to be skeptical too, the turn-in in corners feels different and better. Above all, it is now fun to take twisty roads with this car.
    There is no more excessive front to back weight transfer with acceleration (squatting), and no more excessive side to side leaning in corners. It feels WONDERFUL.


    Steering:
    Before the suspension change, if I roll the steering wheel gently back and forth at say 70 mph, there would be some undesirable free play, or lag, to the car's response. After the steering wheel is turned, the car would take a split nanosecond before it changes direction, then it continues to lean a little bit after I've stopped moving the steering wheel. In addition, the steering is *too* comfortable in a curve: soft, even flabby maybe, with less feedback than I would like.
    I do not know which of the 2 mods, alignment change versus Bilstein PSS10, is responsible, as unfortunately my planning didn't pan out and both those changes were done at the same time, but the steering response is now sharp and much more instantaneous. The feel is tight, and feedback during turns is outstanding.

    Subjective/Objective Power Increase
    The modded Turbo for whatever reason feels quicker & I don't have the need to always turn on Sport Mode like I used too. My speculation for this observation, 2 reasons: Since the car doesn't squat as much when throttle is opened, one, traction of front wheels is maintained for more power delivery, and, two, perhaps more power of that first instance of acceleration is going to the wheel, instead of being wasted in lifting the front of the chassis. Or it could be entirely in my head.
    Whether this observation is subjective or objective in nature, bottom line is the effect is easily noticeable. Plainly and simply the car's acceleration when you step on the gas "arrives" quicker, with less lag. This then is the biggest and most pleasant surprise of this suspension mod.
    Since there is less diving under braking, I would imagine that braking is also more efficient since the rear wheels are now stay put instead of lifting, but I do not feel this at my amateur level of pre-corner braking.

    Bump Management & Noise:
    Bilstein can't perform a miracle; you will sense more road bumps. However, the feel is vastly superior to the jittery ride of PASM-Firm and is entirely acceptable for my daily 35 miles drive to or from work in Los Angeles. Road bumps create a more compliant feel & conventional thump sound (yes I am the type of person who listens to my car's suspension--LOL), versus PASM-Firm's choppy and somehow unnatural feel, and the louder noise when the car hits things like freeway's expansion joints. For comfort level, if PASM-Normal is 10 out of 10, then Bilstein would be a 6 to 7, and PASM-Firm 1, tied with a Sherman M4.
    There is also more road noise transmitted to the cabin, and for whatever reason, the exhaust noise sounds louder. Perhaps the smaller space underneath the car (from the lower ride height) creates some boom box effect.

    With the above suspension mods, IMHO the Turbo could now more seriously compete with the GT2, if not in tracking prowess (AWD & Turbo weighs too much), then in FUN FACTOR. The GT2 is an all-out track car with a "heavy machinery" feel to it-heavy clutch, heavy gear shift, heavy (but fantastic) steering feel. The modded Turbo has advantages & disadvantages inherent to its AWD system, and despite of its avoir-du-pois problem, feels surprisingly agile & light footed. For my amateur skill and speed level, cornering behavior is now similar between the two.
    My Turbo baby used to feel ponderous and soft, now it feels tighter, cat-quick, and lots and lots and lots of fun. Steering and suspension feedbacks are significantly improved over stock, and of course, that nuclear power plant that disguises as the engine is as stupendous as ever. I am grinning from ear to ear every time I come close to this car. The grin-score is so much higher that I would give the Bilstein an unqualified recommendation and rank its usefulness higher than PCCB brake, power mod, exhaust system change, and after-market wheels. To answer the question of the thread: Yes, for me the Bilstein PSS10 is a must if attributes that make a sport car feel sporty are important to you.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    Quote:
    atomic80 said:
    Now I just need to get the price down somehow. I assume you US guys paid nowhere near $8k!



    $8k USD, EUR or pounds? You've got to be kidding me! Just order those from a US reseller! I paid $2500 USD for the Damptronics.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Yes, so you paid 1/3 of what they are trying to charge me!

    I need to find a cheaper way.

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Question: do you also have to do corner balancing after installation?

    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Alex,

    "A wedding" as in *your* wedding? If so, first, congratulations! Second, the more reason for you to do this mod immediately.

    I paid US $2500 for mine, plus about $600 installation, $200 alignment. The price discrepency is so much! Is importing from the US a possibility? If you are interested in this option, check with www.vividracing.com .

    Re. your question on corner balancing: every time you do a suspension change, a corner balance is recommended. That said, I've also been told by professionals that for amateur drivers, it's not necessary as most of us won't notice a difference. FWIW, I did not have a corner balance because I might add a few more things to my car, and it tracks straight and feels fine.

    Quote:
    Alex_997TurboRSC said:
    I got quoted Pounds4k for parts and fitting. That nearly $8k!!

    Think I will be waiting until I get these as I have a wedding to pay for in a month.

    Shame as they would have been great on the Swiss twisty scenic roads for our road-trip.

    How are they on a motorway though now Cannga?


    Re: Bilstein PSS10 Damptronics: A Must For The Tur

    Thanks. Nice cars in your garage!

    Quote:
    AK997TT said:
    Cannga,the car looks great with the lowered stance. I hope you are enjoying the new drive and handling characteristics. The PSS10's made a huge difference in the fun factor on my TT.


     
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