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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    That is the big unknown, when/if Mercedes tames the bouncing, how fast is their car actually?

    I dont think Mercedes is as far behind on engine as it appears.  The belief/hope is that they know the bouncing is more pronounced at high speed so why waste it, so they were using engine maps to utilize the power in different parts of the track and this therefore reduces trap speed which leads some to think they are down on power when that is not the case when sorted.  Mercedes cars just have varying issues at the moment.  In the first race weekend, Aston was up there in the mix with Ferrari powered cars on trap speeds but were slow every where else.

    Im sure Ferrari and RedBull want to close the door as fast as possible and keep this year a two horse race, but after two weekends Mercedes is second in Constructor Points and George is only 3 pts behind Max.

     


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    kudryavchik:

    Whoopsy, testing time is the same for everyone in F1. R&d time is different. 

    Simple. 

    Honestly, go pick on someone else. You not succeeding here.


    I don't know what's your beef with him but the point he made is entirely correct. 

    Testing time is entirely different to R&D, you check whether your simulations are correct, test the functionality of the car and its behavior and discover new things that only a real driving car can.

    R&D comes before and next to that and it even states in the video (3:10 to 3:38) that these effects can not be simulated. Aerodynamics in themselves are already so complex that there are limits in simulation, even more so if it is combined with other influences such as suspension and tires as well as imperfections in the road surface. 

    I do remember that there have been only a handful specialists solving the area between front wing endplate and tire, which, on an open-wheeler, is a complex yet very relevant area. Even there, the possibilities of CFD have been limited. Now imagine these effects working on the entire car...


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Totally correct, Ferdie. These are entirely different stages of production. Testing is the same for everyone. In terms of R&D, as we previously talked, 5% of aero time doesn't cost 1 sec per lap. Especially considering such a radical package and early (as Whoopsy told) stop of 2021 car development. 

     


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    thuggy:

    That is the big unknown, when/if Mercedes tames the bouncing, how fast is their car actually?

    I dont think Mercedes is as far behind on engine as it appears.  The belief/hope is that they know the bouncing is more pronounced at high speed so why waste it, so they were using engine maps to utilize the power in different parts of the track and this therefore reduces trap speed which leads some to think they are down on power when that is not the case when sorted.  Mercedes cars just have varying issues at the moment.  In the first race weekend, Aston was up there in the mix with Ferrari powered cars on trap speeds but were slow every where else.

    Im sure Ferrari and RedBull want to close the door as fast as possible and keep this year a two horse race, but after two weekends Mercedes is second in Constructor Points and George is only 3 pts behind Max.

     

    We cant know it, because the nature of porpoising is the excessive downforce the chassis can't couple with. If merc be able to kill or minimise porpoising without the cut in DF they will have the highest DF chassis. The simplest way to kill porpoising - to lower DF or use non optimal suspension set up (stiff the springs on compression or increase the clearance) -> lose of time on mid speed and high speed corners


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Ferdie:
    Whoopsy:
    kudryavchik:

    Whoopsy, testing time is the same for everyone in F1. R&d time is different. 

    Simple. 

    Honestly, go pick on someone else. You not succeeding here.


    I don't know what's your beef with him but the point he made is entirely correct. 

    Testing time is entirely different to R&D, you check whether your simulations are correct, test the functionality of the car and its behavior and discover new things that only a real driving car can.

    R&D comes before and next to that and it even states in the video (3:10 to 3:38) that these effects can not be simulated. Aerodynamics in themselves are already so complex that there are limits in simulation, even more so if it is combined with other influences such as suspension and tires as well as imperfections in the road surface. 

    I do remember that there have been only a handful specialists solving the area between front wing endplate and tire, which, on an open-wheeler, is a complex yet very relevant area. Even there, the possibilities of CFD have been limited. Now imagine these effects working on the entire car...

     

    Hmm sorry, but you two seems to have gotten the terms crossed up. Or simply misunderstanding the whole FIA sliding scale concept.

    All 10 teams have the same budget to do their R&D and run the race team for the whole season. There is no difference there, 

    The difference is the testing time. Test time on the wind tunnel and CFD simulation is what the FIA is limiting on the sliding scale. 

    Me, you, him, can draw up a shape, aka R&D,  that we each think will work best. But until it get testing in the tunnel or on the simulation, we wouldn't know if it works or not. The top team get less time doing this  trial and error phase, so they have to be more selective in what they test to not waste valuable test time. Haas getting 30% more times means for every 10 Mercedes test runs, they get 13 runs. Big difference there. Mercedes can throw 200 people to do their R&D and come up with 400 ideas, but they can only test 100 of them, while Haas can test 130 of those ideas. The deficit adds up over time. 

    The testing phase is the most important aspect, it's where the results can be gathered and draw conclusions on ideas. Hence why FIA put a limit on track testing even. Every team gets the same amount of time testing on track to gather knowledge. No one team can go out and rent a track and run weeks on end to get the upper hand on their handling setup. 

    Hope this will finally cleared up you guy's confusion. 

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    "All teams have the same budget on RD" - its untrue.

    In fact, several teams have a budget less than the budget cap. Moreover, we must consider the teams that use the same engines. 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    kudryavchik:

    "All teams have the same budget on RD" - its untrue.

    In fact, several teams have a budget less than the budget cap. Moreover, we must consider the teams that use the same engines. 

     

    There is a cost cap. That's the max a team can spend. Doesn't mean all teams will spend to that max. Or teams have to spend less than that cap. Any team can choose to have their own internal cap, which means they are the one handicapping themselves, not the rulebook. 

    Every team has a ceiling on how much they can spend, and within that limit, they can allocation however much to whatever they want. Team A could choose to allocate 100mil just for office furnitures and the rest to racing. No one forces any one team on how they use their budget. 

    Seriously, do you have a reading comprehension problem? 

    Or you have some issues that you just trying to manifest onto me?


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Ok. Brackley (only chassis) merc base counts about 1000 people. Williams f1 about 400, williams pays their engineers 2,5 times more.

    Whoopsy, there is no need to manifest anything to you:-) to me you are nice and funny guy


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    One takeaway for me on testing limits is how important it is to have the right people. Ie. Having Adrian Newey at RB has to be worth quite a lot ….


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    996FourEss:

    One takeaway for me on testing limits is how important it is to have the right people. Ie. Having Adrian Newey at RB has to be worth quite a lot ….

    Personalities are very important, but there are lots of people


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    Ferdie:

    Testing time is entirely different to R&D, you check whether your simulations are correct, test the functionality of the car and its behavior and discover new things that only a real driving car can.

    R&D comes before and next to that and it even states in the video (3:10 to 3:38) that these effects can not be simulated. Aerodynamics in themselves are already so complex that there are limits in simulation, even more so if it is combined with other influences such as suspension and tires as well as imperfections in the road surface. 

    I do remember that there have been only a handful specialists solving the area between front wing endplate and tire, which, on an open-wheeler, is a complex yet very relevant area. Even there, the possibilities of CFD have been limited. Now imagine these effects working on the entire car...

    [...]

    The difference is the testing time. Test time on the wind tunnel and CFD simulation is what the FIA is limiting on the sliding scale. 

    [...]

    Hope this will finally cleared up you guy's confusion. 


    You are including wind tunnel and CFD development into the "testing" phrase. What we are referring to is:

    wind tunnel and CFD - "sliding scale" time cap

    testing - track work - limited in time, equal for all teams

    That's the misunderstanding. Now we can endlessly debate whose description is more appropriate but let's skip that.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    And on the wind tunnel and CFD sliding scale, Mercedes was well aware of the rule.  If they didn’t properly derisk during the development cycle, it is solely their error.   That’s part of racing.  


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Ferdie:
    Whoopsy:
    Ferdie:

    Testing time is entirely different to R&D, you check whether your simulations are correct, test the functionality of the car and its behavior and discover new things that only a real driving car can.

    R&D comes before and next to that and it even states in the video (3:10 to 3:38) that these effects can not be simulated. Aerodynamics in themselves are already so complex that there are limits in simulation, even more so if it is combined with other influences such as suspension and tires as well as imperfections in the road surface. 

    I do remember that there have been only a handful specialists solving the area between front wing endplate and tire, which, on an open-wheeler, is a complex yet very relevant area. Even there, the possibilities of CFD have been limited. Now imagine these effects working on the entire car...

    [...]

    The difference is the testing time. Test time on the wind tunnel and CFD simulation is what the FIA is limiting on the sliding scale. 

    [...]

    Hope this will finally cleared up you guy's confusion. 


    You are including wind tunnel and CFD development into the "testing" phrase. What we are referring to is:

    wind tunnel and CFD - "sliding scale" time cap

    testing - track work - limited in time, equal for all teams

    That's the misunderstanding. Now we can endlessly debate whose description is more appropriate but let's skip that.

     

    Yes of course they are parting of testing. Ideas, concepts, needed testing in order to prove they work or not. Tunnel and CFD times are an integral part of testing phase. 

    Without extra time in the tunnel, the only way Mercedes can test if their ideas work or not is on track in the race. They need to experiment on track, while others can do it in the tunnel and computer first before taking it to the track.

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Poor Mercedes, poor Hamilton. 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    kudryavchik:

    Poor Mercedes, poor Hamilton. 

     

    lol you so fixated on that? SmileySmileySmiley

    It's nothing about Hamilton. Every team on grid knows the scaling and levelling of the field, there is nothing personal or targeting any one particular team or driver. 

    It's just as that it happens, Mercedes was the most successful team last few years and Hamilton the most successful ever. 

    Said it before, it could very well been Red Bull that gets the short end of the stick by winning the constructor last year. They didn't. 

    After this year, it could be Ferrari that gets it. One of these days, it might even be Haas that gets chopped. Who knows. 

    Part of the rules and everyone on the grid agreed with. I got no problems with it. I like it actually. 

    I could dare to say I am the most unbiased here. I might favour Hamilton but doesn't mean I am going to be homer about it like another one of our members. 

    I am also not against Verstappen, I am just saying things as they are, when he crosses the line, I simply pointing it out. I think he is a fabulous driver, but he just need to suck it up, grow up, and drive properly. He got enough skills in him that he can win driving cleanly, he doesn't need to resort to dirty tactics. Pointless. 

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:

    Not quite F1 stuff but F1 related. Sort of.

    I can definitely relate to.

    The joy of running cold slicks. 

    Did that MANY times on a Cup car. The fun of having full lock yet the car is going straight. And then the front suddenly bite while the rear was on ice and snap over steer, checked. 

    Start a race on them cold on damp track, checked. Raced on them while raining. Checked.

    Running them on track while SNOWING. Been there done that at Leipzig. It's actually snowing, in April. Farmer was with me skating together. 

    Hardest part was to go against instinct, keep pushing them harder and harder to get heat into the cold slicks to get them in to working window. Sort of. Zero grip yet still needed pushing. That's the toughest thing to do. 


    --

     

    I was pleasantly surprised when the lady at the market told them they should be using intermediates Smiley



    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Aston is now busy with audi on future engine supplies, however I am not sure Aston will last until 2026))


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    https://twitter.com/tgruener/status/1512228864759513089

    Upgrade news:

    Red Bull: Front Wing Endplate

    Ferrari: Diffuser

    Alpine: Floor, Rear Brake Cover

    McLaren: Winglets (rear corner)

    Aston: Rear Wing

    Williams: Beam Wing, Floor, Front Wing, Front Brake Duct

    Haas: Diffuser

     

    Mercedes, Alfa Romeo, AT: no upgrades


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Mercedes evidently ran out of ideas.  


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Of course not, simply the scale of upgrades, and their substantial character take much longer time


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    I was watching FP2, and could not believe the footage of the Ferrari porpoising: you could hear the sound of the floor hitting the pavement repeatedly. At least I think that's what it was. The driver's head was also bouncing up and down (can't remember if Sainz or Leclerc). 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    KMM:

    I was watching FP2, and could not believe the footage of the Ferrari porpoising: you could hear the sound of the floor hitting the pavement repeatedly. At least I think that's what it was. The driver's head was also bouncing up and down (can't remember if Sainz or Leclerc). 

    You can also look at the footage of previous generation cars and at the speeds higher than 280 you can hear the car scratching the floor (tsh tsh tsh), however no porpoising because the significant amount of downforce was made by the elements on the car, not under


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    kudryavchik:

    Of course not, simply the scale of upgrades, and their substantial character take much longer time

    Better tell HAM as he whinges along. https://www.planetf1.com/news/lewis-hamilton-w13-australia-struggles/


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Never mention HAM in vain, or we risk to have 10 more pages of flood))) 

    I prefer to follow Russel, in the world of very "talking" F1, he prefers to work.



    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    I like that every event has its stories, like the team putting together VET‘s car in time for him to enter Q. Or, Sainz being unlucky in Q3 on cold tires, …it is all entertaining…


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Yes, this season is going to be amazing from all points of view. Expecting great race tomorrow


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Oh noes, Verstappen can't do his trick anymore during SC restarts!

    FIA shuts down Verstappen F1 safety car restart tactics


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Brilliant strategy by Williams to get Albon into the points at the end.

    Holding out till the last lap to bring him in, Leclerc has already passed the finished line so the race is finish, Albon just needed to cross the finish line, which he did in the pit lane. Williams' pit is before the finish line so technically he can come in and change tire before the end of the lap/race.

     

     


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