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    Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    As said to swedish magazine Automobil:
    "On a nice back road it's my favorite in the Porsche model lineup. The car's problem is that with a stronger engine and an LSD it would risk becoming quicker than a 911. I was nagging Wiedeking that the Cayman should get an LSD, but he refused because of strategic and marketing reasons."

    In the same magazine they also do a road-test of the Cayman S. Through their sprint course the Cayman S manages to beat the Carrera S (53,0 and 53,2 seconds). The road tester comments and says: "The Cayman's only problem is exiting the corners, when the inside wheel often starts spinning which affects acceleration. With an LSD it would be even quicker."

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    So, the wait is for a reliable aftermarket tuner who will install LSD... is that possible for not too much money? My money would be Sportec or PSI... do they offer LSD on Caymans?
    -Joost-

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    JohnJohn said:
    but he refused because of strategic and marketing reasons."




    ...granted, the Cayman sole existence (name, lineup vs. boxster) is already largely marketing driven, but to see than marketing castrates the model is really kind of sad...
    On the long term, I am curious to see how they will manage the atmo flat 6 which can be pushed to 4.0L but not more...and that is exactly the 911 evolution path.
    So if the 911 can't grow within its current architecture envelope (rear engine, flat 6), it will have to change, and then what will happen to the 987/Cayman?

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    LSD also for Boxster!

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Well, it's not great, but it is nothing new either. I remember when the 924 S was first introduced with a sligtly lower compression version of the 944's engine to make sure that it did not out-perform the 944 (as the 924 had less frontal area).

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    I drove a Cayman when introduced and initially suspected that only in extreme manuevers could the lack of LSD be felt; however, indeed it turned out that wheel slip seemed to occur exiting one very tight corner. The overall competence of the car tends to give one the confidence to explore its limits, and the problem appears before one would think. I really looked forward to this car, but would not consider one until this issue is addressed. Porsche, are you listening? Probably not, as they distracted by the sound of the cash register.

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    jlr said:Probably not, as they distracted by the sound of the cash register.



    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Every car maker makes sure that the models which cost more are worth paying for over the cheaper models, I don't see a problem with that ,why does everyone else have an issue with Porsche doing it. It's in business to make money after all.

    Generally you pay more money, you get a faster car sports cars, no other car makers sell a cheaper car which goes faster than the top dollar flagship model, do they?

    It goes in order of performance and cost

    Boxster
    Boxster S
    Cayman
    997
    997S
    GT3
    GT3 RS
    GT2

    All limited not to tread on the other models toes, it's not really rocket science

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    So, being devil's advocate... if the Cayman outhandles the 997, and you're pricing cars based on performance, why not give the Cayman the power and suspension it needs, and price it equal to or even above the 997? In the end, is it just the image, and the two rear seats that make people perceive it to be 'above' the Cayman? They must have similar build costs...

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    bubblegum said:
    Every car maker makes sure that the models which cost more are worth paying for over the cheaper models, I don't see a problem with that ,why does everyone else have an issue with Porsche doing it. It's in business to make money after all.

    Generally you pay more money, you get a faster car sports cars, no other car makers sell a cheaper car which goes faster than the top dollar flagship model, do they?

    It goes in order of performance and cost

    Boxster
    Boxster S
    Cayman
    997
    997S
    GT3
    GT3 RS
    GT2

    All limited not to tread on the other models toes, it's not really rocket science




    How can you leave out the 997TT?

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    bubblegum said:Generally you pay more money, you get a faster car sports cars, no other car makers sell a cheaper car which goes faster than the top dollar flagship model, do they?


    Ferrari F360 is better performer than 550 Maranello and Aston Martin Vantage V8 is a better performer in some ways than a DB9.

    And down-market, a Mitsubishi EVO RS is cheaper and faster than the base EVO model...

    And many would say that a 996GT3 is a better performer than 996TT...

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Straight line shove is the main issue, not faster round X or Y track and the car has to be in the same class, IE. The 360 is fezzers sports car and 550 or 575 is in the GT class and hence a different market.

    I'm right and you lot know it; come up with pedantic points if you like , but it won't change the fact that you get a certain level of performance for a certain cost from every car makerand Porsche is the same in this regard. You can't expect to pay less money and get the faster car on paper, under cutting the flagship. No one else does it, what's the big deal with Porsche doing it

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    bubblegum said:
    Straight line shove is the main issue, not faster round X or Y track and the car has to be in the same class, IE. The 360 is fezzers sports car and 550 or 575 is in the GT class and hence a different market.

    I'm right and you lot know it; come up with pedantic points if you like , but it won't change the fact that you get a certain level of performance for a certain cost from every car makerand Porsche is the same in this regard. You can't expect to pay less money and get the faster car on paper, under cutting the flagship. No one else does it, what's the big deal with Porsche doing it




    Ahhhh... once again the argument about sports cars will exclude handling and be relegated to drag strip performance. In that case EVERY Cab that is sold by Porsche should be priced less than the coupe variant since it under-performs its coupe counterpart. (in dragstrip as well as handling)

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    So, being devil's advocate... if the Cayman outhandles the 997, and you're pricing cars based on performance, why not give the Cayman the power and suspension it needs, and price it equal to or even above the 997? In the end, is it just the image, and the two rear seats that make people perceive it to be 'above' the Cayman? They must have similar build costs...



    The problem is: like it or not but the "regular" Porsche buyers dream car is still the 911. Porsche could install even a 400 HP engine into the Cayman S and it would still be a...Cayman. The Cayman is too new and has no tradition at all, this is a major problem of this fine car. Another problem is it's price tag compared to the Boxster S.
    Some of you people are talking about getting LSD but believe me: most customers interested in the Cayman are usually customers who just wanted another toy, not necessarily the people Porsche had in mind like Audi TT, Mercedes SLK, etc. owners who want to climb the "ladder" up.

    Don't fall for illusions and daydreams: Porsche will never allow the Cayman or any other car priced below, to "threaten" the 911. And this strategy is actually the ONLY one which in my opinion works 100% for Porsche because right now, a lot of BS is happening around Porsche with all those new models and the increased production numbers.

    If you want to keep up a certain exclusivity level, you can't build too many cars or even "dilute" the model lines with new models and confusing specs.
    I don't say that the Cayman was a mistake but Porsche placed it as a product nobody actually wanted or needed.
    Roadster? Boxster. Sportscar? 911. SUV? Cayenne. So where would the Cayman fit in? Nowhere I'm afraid.
    Priced too close to the 911 Carrera and too far away from the Boxster S, the Cayman S marketing has failed in my opinion. I also see mistakes made with the 911 Carrera which in my opinion should have been placed somewhere between the Boxster S and the Carrera S. And the difference between the Carrera and Carrera S isn't big enough, another mistake in my opinion.

    Porsche has to realize that if they're trying to become the next BMW, their future may be still "bright" but not in the exclusive sportscar market anymore.

    The Cayman doesn't make sense from many points of view. It is actually a car nobody has really asked for. It may change in a few years if the Cayman "survives" but right now, the Cayman is just another Porsche but not THE Porsche.
    It is difficult to explain, especially since it really is a fine car and all the reviews seem to be great, without any doubt by merit). The question is: what does the Cayman S better than the Boxster S? And another question is: what does the Cayman S better than a 911 Carrera. Yes, it may be a tad quicker in turns but most people wouldn't really care about numbers.

    I'm curious to see how the future of the Cayman evolves.
    Priced at the same price tag as the Boxster S, I see chances for the future. As a "911 for poor people" like a few people put it here and there, the Cayman S doesn't stand a chance. Especially after the Carrera facelift, the Cayman S will be even less attractive. Unless Porsche deletes the Carrera completely and leaves only the Carrera S as a 911 "entry" model. But I doubt that this is ever going to happen.

    Like I said: don't expect Porsche to put the 911 at risk by allowing the Cayman S to be a better performer in a way or another. This ain't going to happen. Unfortunately the rumors of a Cayman Turbo and Cayman RS(CS) have almost completely disappeared, I wonder why?! Of course it can't be excluded that Porsche takes the plunge and risk with a high power Cayman version, especially since the new GT3 and Turbo are introduced as high performance 911 models.
    But I still have my doubts. My very small german dealer has three brandnew Cayman S in his showroom, another one was on the parking lot, newly arrived. From what I heard, nobody seems to be very happy with Cayman S sales over here. But maybe this is just a german thing, we Germans still tend to have erotic dreams about the 911 in our sleep.

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Porsche could install even a 400 HP engine into the Cayman S and it would still be a...Cayman.....Don't fall for illusions and daydreams: Porsche will never allow the Cayman or any other car priced below, to "threaten" the 911.


    Agree with your comments RC, but perhaps I was too subtle in the point I was trying to make. Original thread topic was 'Cayman handles great, but if they gave it more power and LSD it would probably lap faster than 911'
    'Aha,' said someone. 'But you can't have cheap cars go quicker than expensive cars! That's bad for business!'. So I said that on that basis, give the Cayman the same power as 911, and if you like LSD, and price it at or above 911 price. That would keep the 'Rules of Porshce' consistant, and give us buyers a choice of equally fast car to buy at that price point... That would keep us ALL happy, right? Probably not, for the reasons I was trying too subtly to say, and you less subtly concluded - the Cayman is too Boxster-like to price it at 911 levels and still sell, regardless of power or ability. I still like it though, more for being a winter version (or hotter climate version!) of the Boxster. Though would prefer it priced closer to the Boxster. (Either move the Boxster up, or the Cayman down).

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    I'm pretty sure that Porsche will "adapt" Cayman sales strategy sooner or later. Maybe with the facelift which should happen at the same time as the Boxster facelift. Theoretically of course.

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    RC said:Theoretically of course.


    Are you teasing us again? I smell that you know something we don't. Again.

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    Maybe with the facelift which should happen at the same time as the Boxster facelift.



    I know you're no fortuneteller, but you seem to have a lot of expertise in porsche history So here goes my question: When do you think there will be a facelift? 2008?

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    Gauss said:
    I know you're no fortuneteller, but you seem to have a lot of expertise in porsche history So here goes my question: When do you think there will be a facelift? 2008?



    Honestly, I don't know. It won't be 2006 (MY 2007) for sure and it isn't very likely to be 2007 (MY 2008). This is all I know so far.

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    RC said:
    If you want to keep up a certain exclusivity level, you can't build too many cars or even "dilute" the model lines with new models and confusing specs.




    Absolutely true RC...

    Porsche are you listening?!?

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    RC,

    If there was no place for the Cayman S, then why is it selling so well?

    Shane

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Hmmm... it's not.

    Who told you it was selling well?

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Going back to my subjective sales assessment, I have suddenly seen quite a few in the last couple of weeks but still nowhere near as many 997's and 987's after their launches. Also, I assume that I've seen quite a few Caymans but as they're all either black or silver it might only be a couple!

    More telling on slow sales is that there doesn't seem to be a waiting list at my local OPC; order today and you'll get an MY07 car in September. The salesman said that it is selling well (no quantitive evidence provided) but mainly to customers new to Porsche. Existing Boxster owners tend to replace with the same or trade up to the 997.

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    i think they should stop making the cayman and boxster all together and instead do something that would kill all competition. (slk,z4,tt...etc)

    they should merge both models (cayman and boxster) and turn it into a hardtop convertible like the slk. this way sales would definately increase as many ppl who would want a hrd top would get it and those who want a soft top would get it(as a matter of fact it would penetrate the slk's market segment aswell). (they could also introduce a 15hp powerkit, so that ppl who had caymans wont feel betrayed for having their supercars all of a sudden transformed into "poor man porsche's") NOt only will it be more profitable it would be a greater success for the porsche alltogether. think abt it instead of promoting 2 different models they could promote one (less promotion costs). instead of having different parts they could have the same (one hard top mechanism, and same bumpers and exhaust, therefore more economy of scale) and instead of the new car canabalizng the 911 it would only be the new porsche roadster (with a hardtop convertible).the cayman/would be threat would have dissapeared. one whole happy p-family.

    anyway, i guess i got carried away (i get emotional sometimes when typing)

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    So, being devil's advocate... if the Cayman outhandles the 997, and you're pricing cars based on performance, why not give the Cayman the power and suspension it needs, and price it equal to or even above the 997? In the end, is it just the image, and the two rear seats that make people perceive it to be 'above' the Cayman? They must have similar build costs...



    Because you leave marketing out of the equation. For guys like me (technical oriented) it is hard to feel like marketing people do.

    But you should understand; the Cayman is marketed as a new car, based on the boxster, with a fixed roof. It is not designed to be the best sports car in a segment and then marketed, it is firstly marketed, and then designed! And maybe the platform of the cayman/boxster is designed a bit too well
    -Joost-

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    Joost said:
    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    So, being devil's advocate... if the Cayman outhandles the 997, and you're pricing cars based on performance, why not give the Cayman the power and suspension it needs, and price it equal to or even above the 997? In the end, is it just the image, and the two rear seats that make people perceive it to be 'above' the Cayman? They must have similar build costs...



    Because you leave marketing out of the equation. For guys like me (technical oriented) it is hard to feel like marketing people do.

    But you should understand; the Cayman is marketed as a new car, based on the boxster, with a fixed roof. It is not designed to be the best sports car in a segment and then marketed, it is firstly marketed, and then designed! And maybe the platform of the cayman/boxster is designed a bit too well
    -Joost-


    Oh gosh. I REALLY was too subtle! Being 'Devil's Advocate' loosely means that I was putting forward a proposal that I didn't really seriously mean was likely, just to develop the argument. I guess it worked!

    But, are Cayman sales good or bad? I too have seen many more new Boxster's than Caymen.... Maybe they are all being sold in NA?

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Well, all of these points have merit. Speaking personally, I don't care if the Cayman had less hp, the point is that Porsche makes a big deal out of a focused car and that's hard to do without a LSD and sport suspension option. If they want to cripple the car so it won't eat the 911, reduce the power. In the right hands, 200 hp and 150 fewer pounds of weight would be enough...at least for a good time, anyway.

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    jlr said:
    Well, all of these points have merit. Speaking personally, I don't care if the Cayman had less hp, the point is that Porsche makes a big deal out of a focused car and that's hard to do without a LSD and sport suspension option. If they want to cripple the car so it won't eat the 911, reduce the power. In the right hands, 200 hp and 150 fewer pounds of weight would be enough...at least for a good time, anyway.


    You have the right idea, but I'd say 200hp and 1,000 lbs less weight (like the Elise) would be the way to go

    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Grant, Porsche knows the treadmill they are stuck on, one of their top guys admitted it at the 04 geneva show.

    More safety features - more wieght needs more hp
    Adding more HP - more weight from engine and tranny
    Adding more HP - needs heavier brakes/wheels/tires
    Adding more HP - needs heavier suspension parts
    Adding more HP - needs power steering, more weight
    More luxus bits - justifies price point, adds weight


    You can mask a heavier cars handling physics up to a point
    with larger tires, but at the end of the day, you still have more weight to keep under control and a loss of nimbleness in rapid transient maneuvers.


    Re: Walter Röhrl comment on Cayman

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Grant, Porsche knows the treadmill they are stuck on, one of their top guys admitted it at the 04 geneva show.

    More safety features - more wieght needs more hp
    Adding more HP - more weight from engine and tranny
    Adding more HP - needs heavier brakes/wheels/tires
    Adding more HP - needs heavier suspension parts
    Adding more HP - needs power steering, more weight
    More luxus bits - justifies price point, adds weight


    You can mask a heavier cars handling physics up to a point
    with larger tires, but at the end of the day, you still have more weight to keep under control and a loss of nimbleness in rapid transient maneuvers.



    You're preaching to the choir there, Jim

     
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