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    Re: Carrera GT Values

    I think that both, the Carrera GT and the 918, will go down in Porsche history and both cars will be worth a lot in the future but yes, prices came down and may come down further but this is nothing new with (collectable) cars. At the end of the day, they will still be worth more than their initial MSRP, so...all good. blush


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    On it's own merit, CGT is a a great car, just like every other Porsche 'hypercar', they never do these things half hearted.

    It just never acquired the 'historic' part. Not it's fault, it's just the circumstances at the time.

    For collectors, historic values plays as big a role as merit, it is what it is, missing the historic part will limit the upside of the appreciation. This part won't go down way for those that are hoping for great heights on CGT pricing.

     


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    Re: Carrera GT Values

    ^

    Says the "arbiter" of all things Porsche?

    I look forward to the future, and its revelations.

    "You pays your money and you takes your chances"


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    While the CGT doesn't having the racing pedigree I think it will have a couple of things going for it. 1) It will go down (along with the LFA) as one of the best engines in a supercar. People will buy it for the engine and its sound. 2) Just like the 959 and F40, there will always be an association with the F50 as an "era" supercar. You will always have the F40 vs 959, the Enzo vs the CGT, the P1 vs the 918 vs the LaFerrari. That rivalry will always help support interest and value. It's the orphans that are harder. The EB110, the F50 etc. that were out there on their own.


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    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region

     


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Whoopsy:

    On it's own merit, CGT is a a great car, just like every other Porsche 'hypercar', they never do these things half hearted.

    It just never acquired the 'historic' part. Not it's fault, it's just the circumstances at the time.

    For collectors, historic values plays as big a role as merit, it is what it is, missing the historic part will limit the upside of the appreciation. This part won't go down way for those that are hoping for great heights on CGT pricing.

     

    What would you categorize as "historic"? Sure it doesn't have a racing history, but the way the engine and much of it's development came to be could be called historic.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Enmanuel:
    Whoopsy:

    On it's own merit, CGT is a a great car, just like every other Porsche 'hypercar', they never do these things half hearted.

    It just never acquired the 'historic' part. Not it's fault, it's just the circumstances at the time.

    For collectors, historic values plays as big a role as merit, it is what it is, missing the historic part will limit the upside of the appreciation. This part won't go down way for those that are hoping for great heights on CGT pricing.

     

    What would you categorize as "historic"? Sure it doesn't have a racing history, but the way the engine and much of it's development came to be could be called historic.

     

    Explained a couple post up. Historic means leaving s significant mark on Porsche's history. Each of the other 3 has their share of historic value in Porsche history. 

    CGT stands apart in that regards. As I said before, it is still a fantastic car with a fantastic engine, manual transmission to boot. And it's a pure Porsche inside out. 

    It's best NOT to talk about the historic value of the CGT program and instead focus on it's own merits. As, if one wants to highlight the historic value of the CGT program. that means digging back up the salvage operation Porsche went through to bring it to market. Not really someone wants to talk about.

    918's engine started off from the RS Spyder race engine, but it ended up as almost a clean sheet design after all the tweaks, and no one really talks about that engine even though the RS Spyder program was a really successful one. 


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    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Whoopsy:

    On it's own merit, CGT is a a great car, just like every other Porsche 'hypercar', they never do these things half hearted.

    It just never acquired the 'historic' part. Not it's fault, it's just the circumstances at the time.

    For collectors, historic values plays as big a role as merit, it is what it is, missing the historic part will limit the upside of the appreciation. This part won't go down way for those that are hoping for great heights on CGT pricing.

     

    Hmm...Porsche seems to have a different opinion... Smiley

    https://www.porsche.com/museum/en/milestones/

    I know that cars like the Cayenne or the Taycan made it on this list as well but if we are talking about historic importance, well...not wrong. 

    Not sure however it makes sense talking about the historic imprint the Carrera GT left now. We should get back to this topic in 20 or 30 years (if I'm still alive then Smiley). Smiley


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    What did the CGT contribute to future Porsche’s? 


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    When you're going through hell.....keep going.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Brand image?


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    1969 Mercedes-Benz 300SEL 6.3  / 2011 Mercedes-Benz C63 AMG Performance / 2018 Porsche 911 GT3 Clubsport


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    I'll have to disagree on this one. I'm of the mind that the CGT will go down as a historic Porsche, even if not in the same way than some of its predecessors, or other motorsport models. 


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    The CGT is a very beautiful supersports car. It looks dynamic and aggressive but at the same time elegant without the styling excesses of exotic marques. In its natural colour of GT silver it stands out from any collection of cars and it will still stay like that forever.

    However, its main innovation, the small diameter carbon clutch was a flop, I think.

    This car with its V10 came before the PDK unfortunately.

     


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    "Porsche....and Nothing else matters"

     


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    ^

    If you look at current sales of GT cars, and the growth associated with the introduction of PDK, then you might conclude that all manuals were a failure from Porsche's (revenue) perspective. The PDK/nanny introduction expanded the performance window for many who were less adept in the heel/toe and handling limits.

    PDK made non drivers feel like heroes, and amateurs with some skill able to approach pro level performance.

    Yet, there is a culture out there which always harks back to the good ole manual, there must be a reason? And the current Singer/Speedster/Touring trend supports this -eventually the CGT will benefit from this and the 918 will be just another (boring) PDK - whose benefit was never fully exploited on the track other than the occasional user.

    So if nostalgia longs for the manual on the street the CGT is better positioned, if you know or want to learn how to operate a clutch.   

    Clutch engagement issues in the CGT were always operator error....hence the hastening of the introduction of the PDK for the "wannabes" and mechanically inept?


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    I finally gets it. You are one of those that is fans of the CGT and jealous of the 918 and can't stand the 918 having more success

    That has nothing to do with PDK or not. I have explained it to you, it's about the historic significance of the car in question. 

    PDK is just a natural progression on going faster. You can only shift so fast with a manual shifter stick, and having paddles doesn't means it's a automatic. It just means keeping both hands on the steering wheel for ultimate control.

    All current Porsche race cars have paddles shifts, outside of the GT4CS and the GT2RSCS have PDK boxes, the others are air-shifting manuals. Why? To keep the drivers hands on the wheel at all times. Put a PDK box in manual mode basically made it the air shifting manual box without the air line mechanism.

    The resurgence of the manual transmission cars is simply due to the transition to modern technology recently and made the manual obsolete. But there remains a big group of people that still want to row the gears, and clearly there is a market for that. 

     

     


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    Re: Carrera GT Values

    ^

    I am one of those who love the engineering in the 918, wish it wasn't wasted on the new "green" religion and would love to have the car w/o the unneeded 600lbs!  No "jealousy" here, but I will admit to" lust"...for a  918 with PDK w/o the heavy "inefficient" battery components. Yes the engineering to compensate for them is brilliant but it doesn't change the fundamentals of physics and speed - get the weight out!

    What a car and winner for Porsche that would have been; no weight penalty on the track. The "overweight" 918 by comparison needs nannies  as compensation. I do lust after such a car and the skill to drive it.

    Btw you have explained nothing, and your "Porsche/Moderator" ego might be getting in the way of your objectivity. Look in the mirror and repeat "I am not the arbiter of all things Porsche, or Rennteam for that matter". As a Moderator I hope you act as a "humble" servant to enhance the user experience, or are you the secret owner?. Perhaps I am mistaken and you are Porsche's secret development "Stig" or Chariman of their Strategic planning division. If not, drop the pretentiousness and stop preaching.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    I would have loved a 918 Lightweight with RWD, Manual, and no electric drive (similar to CGT, I guess with 10 years of advances).


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    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    cnc:

      

    Clutch engagement issues in the CGT were always operator error....hence the hastening of the introduction of the PDK for the "wannabes" and mechanically inept?

     That statement is IMO and respectfully..............bollocks.

    The error was which ever committee at Porsche decided to put this clutch in a road car which by definition would see stop start driving traffic and hill starts with other traffic, for the track sure but for the road it is stupid and really detracts from the usability and enjoyment of the car.


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    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    2018 McLaren 720S 

    993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Me thinks fans of the CGT have less at stake than owners of 918. 
    Perhaps more so given repair costs once out of warranty. Not mention insurance. 


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    reginos:

    This car with its V10 came before the PDK unfortunately.

    Fortunately you mean. The gearbox of the cgt is an utterly brilliant thing to use, once it's properly warmed out and 2nd gear is no longer sticky it's awesome, far more enjoyable than the 7rs or 991 GT gearbox imo.

    The clutch I admit can be a bit of a pita but it's something that just needs an unusual amount of thinking (unlike any other manual car). Ok it's especially a stressful problem on uphill roundabouts in traffic when you might need to get moving quickly but honestly, too much is made of the clutch operation imo. It really isn't as complicated as it's sometimes made out to be.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Whoopsy:

    Historic means leaving s significant mark on Porsche's history. Each of the other 3 has their share of historic value in Porsche history. 

    CGT stands apart in that regards. As I said before, it is still a fantastic car with a fantastic engine, manual transmission to boot. And it's a pure Porsche inside out. 


    I accept your opinion but I cannot get my head around the thought that, in your eyes, the CGT is lacking historic relevance for Porsche.

    The 959 was a tour de force for Porsche and it is a technical showcase what they could create back then. The latter is appreciated for its character and many see tremendous value in that. The 959 must've been the greatest road car back then to use under any circumstances, on a level the 911 Turbo S has become, yet three decades later, but somewhat lacking in lateral abilities compared to the Ferrari. It is a technical masterpiece but vastly different to the F40 that debuted at the same time.

    The same will happen to the 918 to some extend but I believe it is too early to judge about that. Anyhow, it goes around corners much better than the 959 back then and is also an answer to the current question to electrification of the automobile, but all these driver aids make it much more approachable and this is the key difference to the CGT.

    The analogue character of the CGT, the technological features and the demanding handling, all during a time where Porsche was just getting out of financial struggles... that doesn't make it historical relevant? I do know that from all four of these cars, the CGT has the biggest attraction on me. By a margin. It looks still very modern, both in- and outside apart from a few details. And funny enough, many racing drivers have a huge appreciation for the car as well... but what do they know.

    The GT1, if we are talking about partsbin specials, is just that, combining the 911´s passenger cell with the proven flat-6 turbo and a newly constructed front end. The street version is just a watered-down variant of the racecar which, in its time, could only win Le Mans due to longevity and less so to speed. Certainly an impressive car but to me personally, that one comes last.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    cnc:

    ^

    I am one of those who love the engineering in the 918, wish it wasn't wasted on the new "green" religion and would love to have the car w/o the unneeded 600lbs!  No "jealousy" here, but I will admit to" lust"...for a  918 with PDK w/o the heavy "inefficient" battery components. Yes the engineering to compensate for them is brilliant but it doesn't change the fundamentals of physics and speed - get the weight out!

    What a car and winner for Porsche that would have been; no weight penalty on the track. The "overweight" 918 by comparison needs nannies  as compensation. I do lust after such a car and the skill to drive it.

    Btw you have explained nothing, and your "Porsche/Moderator" ego might be getting in the way of your objectivity. Look in the mirror and repeat "I am not the arbiter of all things Porsche, or Rennteam for that matter". As a Moderator I hope you act as a "humble" servant to enhance the user experience, or are you the secret owner?. Perhaps I am mistaken and you are Porsche's secret development "Stig" or Chariman of their Strategic planning division. If not, drop the pretentiousness and stop preaching.

     

    Can I venture a wild guess that you bought a CGT at 700k+? Smiley

    The 'extra' weight you mentioned is actually more like ~800lbs. Taking out all the hybrid stuff and the 'base' car is actually lighter than a CGT, under 3000lbs. Porsche published that with the initial literature accompanying the 918's release. But it wouldn't be as fast. And the engine wouldn't work as it was designed to be used with the hybrid system as it has no provision for accessories. The key to why the 918 was so fast was the hybrid system, putting down electric boost power on the front axle a la 919, to maximize the corner exit advantage. Not even a new thing, 911s have been enjoying that since like forever, the corner exit traction advantage that is. 

    I said it before, you are welcome to hold your own opinion. All I did was just stating some facts about the 4 halo cars Porsche did without involving emotions. Everyone is welcome to draw their own conclusion.

    BTW, are you trying to dispute the fact about the salvage operation about the CGT? It is well publicized. 

     


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    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Grant:

    I would have loved a 918 Lightweight with RWD, Manual, and no electric drive (similar to CGT, I guess with 10 years of advances).


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    18 GT3 Manual, 73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 16 Cayman GT4, 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550, 79 635CSi

     

     

    Talking about that, how about a RSR with the rear exhaust? WITH the air shifted straight cut transmission. It still has a clutch pedal for 1st gear Smiley

    There is no better sounding race car at Le Mans. 


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    Re: Carrera GT Values

    I found this in my old emails (from 2007) whilst searching for something else. I don't remember who the guy who sent it me is but he had some good friends at Porsche who were involved in the CGT development and he answers some of my questions below including lots on my query about why my, and other CGT tests, could only do 0-300kph in ~32s when the factory got 25.Xs....... It was nice to re read this, quite interesting :)

    First of all, the figures published by Porsche were obtained from the Weissach cars. The cars used standard pump fuel up to 100 RON during the testing period. These cars were not fitted with any “special” enhancements. Jens drove the vehicles throughout the test program as did others and confirms that no “special driving techniques” were employed by anyone for the purpose of the published figures. “The figures are always signed off at top level before being released and that needs a lot of evidence to gain signatures.” 

    He is positive the figures published were achieved and says sometimes were exceeded. “The Porsche philosophy on publishing performance figures is that ALL production cars must be able to confirm the figures quoted. This often means lowering the “best” figures obtained during any testing for the poorest denominator as cars do vary a little.” I guess that is where the traditional Porsche understating comes from? So were Porsche on a marketing trip with their claims? I have to say, based on my discussions with two good friends, no. Well not intentionally anyway!

    Generally the guys were perplexed at your figures and could only point to the obvious considerations. Jens did say that he had also seen worse times than yours during development but these were for a reason

    and mainly consisted of one or even more of the following being out of spec…..(so many I had to keep writing them down!) Sorry if it seems I am teaching you to suck eggs! Hey, they did it to me and I was also yawning, so here it is!

    Tyre condition

    Tyre temps and pressures

    Weather

    Wheel alignment

    Engine service condition

    Weight

    Road surface 

    Mechanical service condition

    Damper performance

    Clutch performance

    Rear wing position and performance

    Fuel quality

    Driver error

    etc; etc; etc 

    The basic message was that everything should be “in spec” for the car to perform well. (obvious) Thomas is adamant that the asphalt surface will play a larger part than most people think. “We have known this for many years from extensive testing on different surfaces at Weissach and the Nordschleife.” He would be surprised if your car was the reason. I would agree only because the time gap is so large. I drove a 2004, 105,000 km car at the weekend, this really felt no different than mine! Unlike 911/993/996 where you can certainly tell the difference in high mileage even with a blindfold, this CGT was the same as mine. This can only point to the design and build quality. Superb.

    Interestingly, did you try the run in the opposite direction? They both agreed that the lower performance was more than likely due to increased drag on the car or full power/traction not being achieved. Gear changes were good and not an issue. However, as you can appreciate, it was not possible to pin point any certain reason.

    Finally, they suggest you try the run again, preferably on a different track and monitor the results. If they are the same, Thomas’ suggestion is to have the car checked over and maybe Dyno’d if nothing is found.

    At the end of it all, Thomas said in his heavy German accent “You know, all this is not important, what is important is one lap at the Nordshleife!” I love that statement so much I have to use it on my signature! 

    Like you I find it amusing how the rumors and theories develop -like the clutch ECU software mod !Some guy posted recently as if it is fact that '05 cars have this mod which makes the ECU increase the load for a hill start..... In fact the recent Porsche Post (PCGB), the one with the Red CGT on the front, the author inside also refers to the later cars having easier to get off the line clutches.....

    One issue which I am interested in is the ride height. Some people say the US ones were higher than Euro ones. My ( US ) handbook states 86mm and that is exactly right for the front splitter - I really can't see how Euro ones can be lower ? Confirmation would be great...

    Thomas could not think of any differences between US and ROW Motronic programs, except for the fuel vacuum pump program on the US version. He maintains that there should not be any differences between a US car and an EU car in terms of designed performance. It is possible to download the ROW program to your Motronic if you so wish. 

    With regard to the alleged “hill start program”, Thomas has never heard of it! Having read some of the other posts, I would suspect that what the yanks are referring to is ignition advance. This will occur whenever the engine senses a high load and it will be blatantly apparent at low revolutions when it acts like an anti-stalling measure. This will give the impression of a “blip” from the throttle at just the right moment, but of course its not. The increase in revs would only be noticed when the load has been overcome or the load has ceased to be. Ie. quickly disengaging the clutch. So their description of exactly what and when it occurs is not entirely accurate which is why you probably could not reproduce it. 

    Car height: Again, there is NO difference in car heights between US and ROW. There is a slight adjustment that can be made on the lower spring retainer that was provided for a simple reason. As vehicles become older, they will get lower, spring tension, bushing etc. and this may cause damage to the underside. 

    The rollbar is set to the middle position during production as the standard spec.

    I asked a whole heap of other questions which Thomas has promised to get back to me on as well as elaborating on your specific questions. He needs to call around a few departments to get the accurate info. Should have the answers in a few days.

     


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    997 GT2 2014 3.9 Mezger, 800PS @ 1.2 bar

    2018 McLaren 720S 

    993 Turbo, 2006 built 3.8, 577PS/797NM, 1440kg DIN sold to a worthy enthusiast.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    Thanks for posting  Smiley - very interesting. I have to get a Carrera GT at some point but must be a flat black - they look so wonderful.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    TB993tt:

    my query about why my, and other CGT tests, could only do 0-300kph in ~32s when the factory got 25.Xs....... It was nice to re read this, quite interesting :)

     

     I am not sure how the rear wing operated in the Carrera GT: maybe same topic as with current production cars, i.e. lower top range acceleration with certain rear wing settings Smiley


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    crayphile:

    Thanks for posting  Smiley - very interesting. I have to get a Carrera GT at some point but must be a flat black - they look so wonderful.

    It's a fairly easy job to ask Porsche Reading to respray the car if that's the only one stopping you to be honest rather than looking for one specifically in that colour. The car is designed to be able to be taken apart easily and they have resprayed quite a few cars over the years. The paintwork they do is imo anyway very very good.

    TB993tt - re rideheight. I believe a lot of US cars came with higher droplinks that effectively raised the car's rideheight. It wasn't a US only thing but very few european cars I believe ever came with that which is why it's mainly associated with the US cars having a higher ride height.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    isv..:
    crayphile:

    Thanks for posting  Smiley - very interesting. I have to get a Carrera GT at some point but must be a flat black - they look so wonderful.

    It's a fairly easy job to ask Porsche Reading to respray the car if that's the only one stopping you to be honest rather than looking for one specifically in that colour. The car is designed to be able to be taken apart easily and they have resprayed quite a few cars over the years. The paintwork they do is imo anyway very very good.

    Good idea - I will consider it.


    Re: Carrera GT Values

    crayphile:
    isv..:
    crayphile:

    Thanks for posting  Smiley - very interesting. I have to get a Carrera GT at some point but must be a flat black - they look so wonderful.

    It's a fairly easy job to ask Porsche Reading to respray the car if that's the only one stopping you to be honest rather than looking for one specifically in that colour. The car is designed to be able to be taken apart easily and they have resprayed quite a few cars over the years. The paintwork they do is imo anyway very very good.

    Good idea - I will consider it.

    I'm sure you already know this but if you were looking for one in the UK, Andy Keywood at Porsche Reading would be the first point of call imo and would be able to point you towards the cars that have been properly taken care of over the years. I'd not personally buy a car without Reading given it the all clear with an inspection.


     
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