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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sand8dune:

    Yes. like you said, all data should be documented on both Porsche and suppliers. It may be a bit of delay in getting the specific part with specific tolerance, depending if they have stock on various tolerances (doubtful if just in time process). I am not sure but I think the engine parts are kitted from supplier and built by Porsche. Worse case scenario would be to supply the part with "close" enough tolerance (under) and not on the "high" side. Sorry again......

    Surely if this turns out to be case then they would have to recall every GT3 delivered. Can't just be a bad batch, they've got the math wrong from the start..Smiley..


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    GT3 pick up 01/03/14.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sand8dune:

    Yes. like you said, all data should be documented on both Porsche and suppliers. It may be a bit of delay in getting the specific part with specific tolerance, depending if they have stock on various tolerances (doubtful if just in time process). I am not sure but I think the engine parts are kitted from supplier and built by Porsche. Worse case scenario would be to supply the part with "close" enough tolerance (under) and not on the "high" side. Sorry again......

    One other factor to consider: did Porsche collect and archive the tolerance stack and component data?  Without that specific data, the process becomes more complicated.  This, as I recall, is an artifact of Porsche adopting the Toyota Production System.  This system performs flawless 99% of the time, but the 1% can be bedeviling.  


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    frayed:
    MKW:
     

    this will never change as long as we long time loyalists are addicted to their Kool-aid, where they can charge over $2K for a sport plus button which used to be all software and a dash clock  or the current practice of requiring $6K total for a two tone dash/ interior  to reduce dangerous glare with their two light colored interiors which other  makes spec as baseline , even for $15K rentawreck econoboxes and which Porsche  themselves did so until 20 yrs ago when they decided that THE iconic sports car should from then on should come dressed  with an all beige or all light grey interior, down to the steering wheel.... so it could emulate  grandpa's Oldsmobile from the 70s.

     

    As much as I love the cars PAG builds I have to agree with this.  Except monotone black, any other monotone color is tragic.  Body panels, leather, vinyl, never totally match in texture or tone, so it always looks half baked.  No option black tan in my 964 looks great. . .

    my '90 964 had black / tan interior as standard for tan...loved it . After a black interior 993, I ordered an early 996 in tan interior and was shocked when it was delivered with tan dash and steering wheel . I hated the yellow reflection in the windshield , even with polarized sunglasses the view forward   seemed jaundiced and went back to black for next one.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?

    Do you feel confident, Nick, because yours is on its way..Have to be honest, i would not..


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    GT3 pick up?, when P find a fix..


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    sand8dune:

    In short, it is shown (from Cayenne V8 engine building, as far as I remember) that for Porsche to meet final specification (in this case, may be horse power/torque), for example +/-5% variation from 485hp. If this specification is translated to an individual component tolerance, it is almost xxx.xxxx +/- 0.0001 (just example here). Impossible for supplier to meet.The only way to meet the final specification is to use mix/match of various components, so each component can be manufatured as xxx.xxx +/- 0.002 (or 0.005) so that the stack up tolerances for the final assembly are within the specification that specified by client can be met. This is the reason I think that Porsche prefer to change out a complete engine rather than replacing component. Is not that you can not replace a single component but the chances of meeting the original specification is slim. we talking about Cayenne engine here, let alone the high specs engine like GT3 or Turbo version. Sorry if this is a bit off topic.


    That's exactly why Porsche hand build engines. A cylinder may be machined to the small side of the tolerance, and they can pick a piston that's also on the small side of tolerance to maintain spec. 



    --

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Whoopsy:
    sand8dune:
     

    In short, it is shown (from Cayenne V8 engine building, as far as I remember) that for Porsche to meet final specification (in this case, may be horse power/torque), for example +/-5% variation from 485hp. If this specification is translated to an individual component tolerance, it is almost xxx.xxxx +/- 0.0001 (just example here). Impossible for supplier to meet.The only way to meet the final specification is to use mix/match of various components, so each component can be manufatured as xxx.xxx +/- 0.002 (or 0.005) so that the stack up tolerances for the final assembly are within the specification that specified by client can be met. This is the reason I think that Porsche prefer to change out a complete engine rather than replacing component. Is not that you can not replace a single component but the chances of meeting the original specification is slim. we talking about Cayenne engine here, let alone the high specs engine like GT3 or Turbo version. Sorry if this is a bit off topic.

     

    That's exactly why Porsche hand build engines. A cylinder may be machined to the small side of the tolerance, and they can pick a piston that's also on the small side of tolerance to maintain spec. 

     

    So does Toyota, Hyundai, Ford and GM, for example...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?

    Nick, in your position I wouldn't waste any time on trying to summarise wild guesswork and dubious opinions based purely on idle speculation in the complete absence of real facts.  Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    fritz:
    nberry:

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?

    Nick, in your position I wouldn't waste any time on trying to summarise wild guesswork and dubious opinions based purely on idle speculation in the complete absence of real facts.  Smiley

    +1


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bluelines:
    fritz:
    nberry:

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?

    Nick, in your position I wouldn't waste any time on trying to summarise wild guesswork and dubious opinions based purely on idle speculation in the complete absence of real facts.  Smiley

    +1

    I do agree but when are Porsche going to step out and tell us whats going on. Does anyone know?..


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    GT3 pick up?, when P find a fix..


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Whoopsy:

    That's exactly why Porsche hand build engines. A cylinder may be machined to the small side of the tolerance, and they can pick a piston that's also on the small side of tolerance to maintain spec. 

     

     Mahle (Porsche's supplier for cylinder and pistons on the aircooled cars) still sells spare cylinders and pistons with a 1, 2, or 3 marked on each part indicating if the part is dead-on, slightly small, or slightly large.

    With the new 9A1 motors, you cannot any longer change cylinders for rebuilding, but pistons are probably still sized to fit the measured bore of the non-removable cylinders.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    throt:
    bluelines:
    fritz:
    nberry:

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?

    Nick, in your position I wouldn't waste any time on trying to summarise wild guesswork and dubious opinions based purely on idle speculation in the complete absence of real facts.  Smiley

    +1

    I do agree but when are Porsche going to step out and tell us whats going on. Does anyone know?..

    Probably not until they have been able definitively establish the cause of the problem(s) based on a thorough examination of all the information available to them, drawn up a campaign to fix it, and ensured that all the logistics are in place for rectifying all the cars which may require it which are in the hands of customers or dealers or otherwise in the delivery pipeline, including procuring and building up an adequate supply of "OK" parts which may be thought necessary.

    The one thing worse than not informing the customers in a situation like this would be go off half-cocked and issue a bulletin based on preliminary assumptions and incomplete information, only to find that any initial conclusions arrived at were wrong and needed to be drastically corrected. A lack of information may be disconcerting for those directly concerned, but contradictory information and changes of course would ruin credibility in the eyes of both those concerned and the casual onlookers. 

    We have already seen in the course of this thread that the "problem" is being attributed variously to conrods and to oil/water heat exchangers. There has been talk of 5 cars affected or just 2 cars. Based on this information, or lack of it,  there are already self-professed experts telling us how difficult it will be to remedy these problems, especially where cars already in the field are concerned. Smiley

     


    --

    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Finding the problem is often the easy part.  Fixing it and more importantly proving its fixed without causing problems elsewhere can be an order of magnitude tougher


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    fritz:
    throt:
    bluelines:
    fritz:
    nberry:

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?

    Nick, in your position I wouldn't waste any time on trying to summarise wild guesswork and dubious opinions based purely on idle speculation in the complete absence of real facts.  Smiley

    +1

    I do agree but when are Porsche going to step out and tell us whats going on. Does anyone know?..

    Probably not until they have been able definitively establish the cause of the problem(s) based on a thorough examination of all the information available to them, drawn up a campaign to fix it, and ensured that all the logistics are in place for rectifying all the cars which may require it which are in the hands of customers or dealers or otherwise in the delivery pipeline, including procuring and building up an adequate supply of "OK" parts which may be thought necessary.

    The one thing worse than not informing the customers in a situation like this would be go off half-cocked and issue a bulletin based on preliminary assumptions and incomplete information, only to find that any initial conclusions arrived at were wrong and needed to be drastically corrected. A lack of information may be disconcerting for those directly concerned, but contradictory information and changes of course would ruin credibility in the eyes of both those concerned and the casual onlookers. 

    We have already seen in the course of this thread that the "problem" is being attributed variously to conrods and to oil/water heat exchangers. There has been talk of 5 cars affected or just 2 cars. Based on this information, or lack of it,  there are already self-professed experts telling us how difficult it will be to remedy these problems, especially where cars already in the field are concerned. Smiley

     

    Makes sense. fritz..

    My April pick up then is very probable NOT going to happen and poor old Nick could and will get a call about his, which is on the boat i believe. 


    --

    throt

    "I Have Done It!".

    GT3 pick up?, when P find a fix..


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Fritz, I don't disagree with what you wrote. As a matter of fact that is exactly what I would expect and want Porsche to do.

    However, there is a more basic and in my view critical problem which Porsche is not addressing; Customer Relations. Porsche apparently feels they should focus all their efforts in identifying the problem and figuring out how best to deal with it. Yet little to no effort has been given to all the owners presently driving  and buyers waiting for their cars in keeping them up to date on Porsche's investigation. We are kept in the dark standing on the edge of a cliff waiting for the shoe to drop.

    I am not a PR expert but at a minimum I would tell GT3's affected parties this is the situation describing their investigation and the present focus areas. No need to say what they have concluded or may conclude. I am a member of the Porsche family/team and should be provided ongoing information as to the status of Porsche investigative efforts. To treat me like the general public with cryptic acknowledgments to the press is wrong. I have a $150,000 vested interest as to what is going on and Porsche needs to keep me advised outside public pronouncements.

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    How did Ferrari handle the initial 458 fires? Anyone remember?


    --

    2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bluelines:

    How did Ferrari handle the initial 458 fires? Anyone remember?


    There was a recall where the heat shield covers at both rear wheels were replaced. The glue which was used to fix these covers wasn't heat resistant enough and was prone to catch fire at higher temperatures. Ferrari had to remove all of the glue and the covers were fixed with rivets instead. About 1250 cars had been affected.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Rossi:
    bluelines:

    How did Ferrari handle the initial 458 fires? Anyone remember?


    There was a recall where the heat shield covers at both rear wheels were replaced. The glue which was used to fix these covers wasn't heat resistant enough and was prone to catch fire at higher temperatures. Ferrari had to remove all of the glue and the covers were fixed with rivets instead. About 1250 cars had been affected.

    Do you know or recall how long it took Ferrari to identify the problem and report to the 458 owners?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:
    Rossi:
    bluelines:

    How did Ferrari handle the initial 458 fires? Anyone remember?


    There was a recall where the heat shield covers at both rear wheels were replaced. The glue which was used to fix these covers wasn't heat resistant enough and was prone to catch fire at higher temperatures. Ferrari had to remove all of the glue and the covers were fixed with rivets instead. About 1250 cars had been affected.

    Do you know or recall how long it took Ferrari to identify the problem and report to the 458 owners?


    Uh, that was way back in 2010. But if I remember correctly, the problem was identified by Ferrari rather quickly. Owners were contacted by Ferrari via a written notice, where they announced the recall and the work neccessary.


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

     BBC reported the 458 fires on August 24th 2010. Ferrari acknowledged it was aware of the problem and issued a recall on 9/1/2010 by letter to all owners.

    Porsche has been working on this for more than a week.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

     BBC reported the 458 fires on August 24th 2010. Ferrari acknowledged it was aware of the problem and issued a recall on 9/1/2010 by letter to all owners.

    Porsche has been working on this for more than a week.

    FWIW, the above does not tell us when the fires (plural!) occurred, though certainly before they were reported on by the BBC! 

    The Swiss GT3 caught fire after noises from the engine on 4 February. Porsche's "Stop Sale" was issued on 11 February according to Trundle's post here. We do not even know if these two events are connected. 

    --

    fritz


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    While not much consolation, the decision to offer PDK only for this car might contribute to a faster solution and one that is more fair to the customer.  In the past, Porsche (like BMW did with E46 M3 engine failures) might've tried to blame the driver for over-revs or some other abusive behavior.  With PDK, the computer decides how high revs can go, etc., so there is nobody to blame other than themselves.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    fritz:
    nberry:

     BBC reported the 458 fires on August 24th 2010. Ferrari acknowledged it was aware of the problem and issued a recall on 9/1/2010 by letter to all owners.

    Porsche has been working on this for more than a week.

    FWIW, the above does not tell us when the fires (plural!) occurred, though certainly before they were reported on by the BBC! 

    The Swiss GT3 caught fire after noises from the engine on 4 February. Porsche's "Stop Sale" was issued on 11 February according to Trundle's post here. We do not even know if these two events are connected. 

    --

    fritz

    I was not chastising Porsche. Having little more than week is certainly not unreasonable on their part. My post could be interpreted otherwise. My bad or is it my legal training?Smiley

    That said, they should be keeping me advised regarding their progress. They need not work under a bushel basket. It only creates mistrust. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Best of luck with receiving notifications from Porsche in a timely manner... When the second CL recall happened for the 997.2 that introduced a maintenance schedule, we were informed about the new requirements in writing 10 MONTHS after the fact... Too bad if someone had not learned the new requirements on a forum and had exceeded their hub usage requirements and lost a wheel in those 10 months...

    I wouldn't be holding my breath for an announcement in the next week...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:
    fritz:
    nberry:

     BBC reported the 458 fires on August 24th 2010. Ferrari acknowledged it was aware of the problem and issued a recall on 9/1/2010 by letter to all owners.

    Porsche has been working on this for more than a week.

    FWIW, the above does not tell us when the fires (plural!) occurred, though certainly before they were reported on by the BBC! 

    The Swiss GT3 caught fire after noises from the engine on 4 February. Porsche's "Stop Sale" was issued on 11 February according to Trundle's post here. We do not even know if these two events are connected. 

    --

    fritz

    I was not chastising Porsche. Having little more than week is certainly not unreasonable on their part. My post could be interpreted otherwise. My bad or is it my legal training?Smiley

    That said, they should be keeping me advised regarding their progress. They need not work under a bushel basket. It only creates mistrust. 

    You are completely right nberry, ongoing communication with customers is key in these situation and they miserably failed so far...


    --

    turbolite


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    throt:
    bluelines:
    fritz:
    nberry:

    In summary, assuming the issue is a bad batch of piston rods replacement becomes problematic and the most desirable solution at least from the customer standpoint is to replace the engine. From Porsche's view is to replace the piston rod and hope for the best. Is that about right?

    Nick, in your position I wouldn't waste any time on trying to summarise wild guesswork and dubious opinions based purely on idle speculation in the complete absence of real facts.  Smiley

    +1

    I do agree but when are Porsche going to step out and tell us whats going on. Does anyone know?..

    It is supposed to be today …. or tomorrow , according to what my dealer told me on monday


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    KresoF1:
     

    Well... I wrote few weeks ago that despite Porsche's claims new 991 GT3 has limited daily usage. Mainly, it is because of both set of available tires. I drove new GT3 with MPSC on very wet road(rain was pouring intensly) and PSM was working overtime. Despite my efforts I had few sudden not-so-nice reactions that scared me. Yes, speed was maybe little bit above avergae for wet road, but at same speed 991 Turbo S with P Zeros were super stable at wet.

    Smiley Remember the time when the 996 Turbo came out and many people made complaints about the neutral behavior and the boring ride? Then, Porsche put the 996 GT2 on the market and many 996 Turbo owners switched to the GT2. Guess what? One year later, there were many accidents and quite a bunch of GT2 owners who switched back. Smiley

    Using the GT3 for track fun (or even public road fun) is one thing but knowing it's limitations under certain driving conditions another one. Also don't forget that there are people who have superb driving skills, enjoying the GT3 even in the wet sliding and others who are your average sports car driver, fast, experienced but not Walter Röhrl and these people will have a bad surprise when they learn that they cannot drive the GT3 at the same pace under certain road conditions as they did with their family SUV. Smiley I know this sounds a little bit extreme but you get the point.

    This is why I do not understand why Porsche doesn't offer a 991 GTS with the GT3 technology (engine, PDK, AWS) but let's say 460 hp, rear seats (optional) and normal street tires. They could even charge the same price as for the GT3 for it. People would love this car and those who need a track toy, could go for the GT3 instead. That simple. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    911rox:

    Best of luck with receiving notifications from Porsche in a timely manner... When the second CL recall happened for the 997.2 that introduced a maintenance schedule, we were informed about the new requirements in writing 10 MONTHS after the fact... Too bad if someone had not learned the new requirements on a forum and had exceeded their hub usage requirements and lost a wheel in those 10 months...

    I wouldn't be holding my breath for an announcement in the next week...

    Silence is very powerful - Porsche have used it for decades and it works. For each customer they lose there will be two more that they gain.

    In a few months this issue will be forgotten, just like the CL issue, and we will be raving about the RS and Macan...


    --

    RS60 Spyder, 991 GT3 RS pending :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    This is why I do not understand why Porsche doesn't offer a 991 GTS with the GT3 technology (engine, PDK, AWS) but let's say 460 hp, rear seats (optional) and normal street tires. They could even charge the same price as for the GT3 for it. People would love this car and those who need a track toy, could go for the GT3 instead. That simple. Smiley

    991 GTS with GT3 technologies but only with less power and normal street tires? I don't have your point. It is useless. People will order the GT3 instead anyway. Except if they really need the rear seats... But people should not forget that the GT3 is not so comfortable as a daily car... So, the 991 GTS will be a mix between the Carrera S and the Turbo... But nothing in common with the GT3.

    My only opinion.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    boytronic:
    911rox:

    Best of luck with receiving notifications from Porsche in a timely manner... When the second CL recall happened for the 997.2 that introduced a maintenance schedule, we were informed about the new requirements in writing 10 MONTHS after the fact... Too bad if someone had not learned the new requirements on a forum and had exceeded their hub usage requirements and lost a wheel in those 10 months...

    I wouldn't be holding my breath for an announcement in the next week...

    Silence is very powerful - Porsche have used it for decades and it works. For each customer they lose there will be two more that they gain.

    In a few months this issue will be forgotten, just like the CL issue, and we will be raving about the RS and Macan...

     you are corect..this is how it worked in the past..but I cant remember any similar case in Porsche´s history..this is now on another level..plus the media/internet hype..When I was talking about "worse to come"..I meant this here - and I have heard about another similar case..so I dont think this wil be forgotten so quickly..even if it was just the engine ..it will take some time to find out exactly what happend, then re-design the parts (if necessary)..implement the changes etc..in the luckiest case it was just really a bad batch of parts (nothing to be redesigned)..

    http://thesupercarkids.com/porsche-991-gt3-wrecked-in-uk-with-only-80-miles-on-the-clock/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=porsche-991-gt3-wrecked-in-uk-with-only-80-miles-on-the-clock


     
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