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    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Nice review. I like the looks of the F355 better, but you can't beat having 483hp.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Nice review. I like the looks of the F355 better, but you can't beat having 483hp.



    the 355 is perhaps the best sounding modern ferrari made IMO. and modern ferraris are more about sound than performance so i can see their conclusion.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    The F430 has grown on me - I think its the perfect evolution to the 360, for just circa UK Pounds130k... And at that price, I rather have a Lamborghini!


    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Nice review. I like the looks of the F355 better, but you can't beat having 483hp.



    the 355 is perhaps the best sounding modern ferrari made IMO. and modern ferraris are more about sound than performance so i can see their conclusion.



    Autocar is considered by those in the know as the finest autombile magazine on the planet. This is a quote from the article

    So, after my first 20 minutes in an F430, I stop and consider what it is I've learnt about a car that I'm led to believe takes the best aspects of the old 360 and adds enough cor blimey to make it the best sports car on sale.


    Not much more to say.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    Not much more to say.




    btw: author chris harris bought himself a gallardo some time ago. i wonder if he still would.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:
    Nice review. I like the looks of the F355 better, but you can't beat having 483hp.



    the 355 is perhaps the best sounding modern ferrari made IMO. and modern ferraris are more about sound than performance so i can see their conclusion.



    Autocar is considered by those in the know as the finest autombile magazine on the planet. This is a quote from the article

    So, after my first 20 minutes in an F430, I stop and consider what it is I've learnt about a car that I'm led to believe takes the best aspects of the old 360 and adds enough cor blimey to make it the best sports car on sale.


    Not much more to say.



    except:

    "No matter how much Ferrari tries to sanitise and inject comfort into its road cars..."

    "Well, for starters it's appallingly jerky in traffic."

    " In fact, the whole car is so much more comfortable just plodding about that current 360 owners will be amazed."

    "For all the numbers, I've always been a little suspicious of Ferrari's claimed outputs from these high-revving V8s. Yes, the 360 was quick, and yet with 276bhp per tonne it should have been quicker still, but the clever exhaust made such wonderful noises that most people felt like they were travelling at warp nine when warp seven-and-a-bit was probably closer to the truth."

    (this was a problem with the speedo in my CS too which was quite economical with the truth).

    "Once again the noise heightens the sense of speed, but just as you begin to assume the same process of artificial amplification might be at work, you look at the speedo and realise the truth. It's mighty fast."

    (see my last comment).

    "I reckon an infant of marginal talent could drift a 430 safely given the correct E-diff setting."

    (that's pathetic and kinda says it all).

    "...potential owners will also become acquainted with the car's lack of front ground clearance on our choppier roads. The 430 will kiss the ground with its chin well before any of the suspension components have given any indication that they're working towards the extremes of their abilities."

    fwiw, i find this in direct contrast to my experience. the 430 has tons of ground clearance.

    "Even with the standard steel brakes, stopping power is all you'll ever need on the road although track-day types will doubtless opt for the pricey ceramic replacements."

    that's true - for another $15k you can get proper sports car brakes.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Quote:
    Not much more to say.




    btw: author chris harris bought himself a gallardo some time ago. i wonder if he still would.



    yeah, he'd likely stick to the E-geared, AWD "sports car" if this statement of his is true:

    "The lucky few owners of this car will take at least three months to break through the immaturity process and discover the car underneath. If it were mine, I'm not sure I ever would. Crikey, would that make me one of the yo-yoing poseurs on the King's Road?"

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Ben,

    Could you please compare ground clearance (front)

    Challenge Stradale vs. 430

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Ben,

    Could you please compare ground clearance (front)

    Challenge Stradale vs. 430



    430 has much more. i couldn't believe how it made it pulling out on one occasion in specific. this car is VERY street driving friendly. it is certainly an everyday/everywhere car which is not something that can be said about the CS and CGT owing primarily to ground clearance. you can take the 430 anyplace you can take a regular 911 (or 360).

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Ben,

    Could you please compare ground clearance (front)

    Challenge Stradale vs. 430



    430 has much more. i couldn't believe how it made it pulling out on one occasion in specific. this car is VERY street driving friendly. it is certainly an everyday/everywhere car which is not something that can be said about the CS and CGT owing primarily to ground clearance. you can take the 430 anyplace you can take a regular 911 (or 360).



    That's what I thought. Obviously there's a plus to that but I love the way the CS sits compared to the 360 or 430. If it weren't for the higher premium ($$) the 43O Spider would bring vs. the CS when going into a possible 43OCS then I wouldn't even be thinking about a switch. I don't think I'm going to trade though. I like everything (cept the premium)about the CS better.

    What would you do ? Do you still have your CS ?

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Ben,

    Could you please compare ground clearance (front)

    Challenge Stradale vs. 430



    430 has much more. i couldn't believe how it made it pulling out on one occasion in specific. this car is VERY street driving friendly. it is certainly an everyday/everywhere car which is not something that can be said about the CS and CGT owing primarily to ground clearance. you can take the 430 anyplace you can take a regular 911 (or 360).



    That's what I thought. Obviously there's a plus to that but I love the way the CS sits compared to the 360 or 430. If it weren't for the higher premium ($$) the 43O Spider would bring vs. the CS when going into a possible 43OCS then I wouldn't even be thinking about a switch. I don't think I'm going to trade though. I like everything (cept the premium)about the CS better.

    What would you do ? Do you still have your CS ?



    I sold my CS a bit over a month ago since it pretty much was driven primarily by Nick after the CGT came The CGT has a tendancy to make all other cars boring.

    Given the huge premium the spider will be bringing, I'd consider trading (if you can buy at MSRP) just to make a buck and insure an allocation for the 430 CS which will be considerable more rare than the coupe and spider 430 versions. You can always buy another CS (lower than you'll likely get for yours now) if you change your mind later.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    My 430 has a lot LESS ground clearance than my 360, that's for sure, I'm kissing the ground mutch more (on the same roads)

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    stradale, don't know if euro versions are diff in the ground clearance dept than euro ones, but you can see from this picture the 430 is way jacked up (particularly in the fronot) compared to your CS:




    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    stradale, don't know if euro versions are diff in the ground clearance dept than euro ones, but you can see from this picture the 430 is way jacked up (particularly in the fronot) compared to your CS:






    as you can see, the stradale is much more raked from rear to front (look as well as the distance from the already much lower profiled rim/wheel package to the wheel well on the CS relative to the 430).

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    So you one of those people who subscribe to the philosophy that a good car is one that requires a driver to make it good?

    In my view, a near perfect car is one that make the driver near perfect.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    So you one of those people who subscribe to the philosophy that a good car is one that requires a driver to make it good?

    In my view, a near perfect car is one that make the driver near perfect.



    yes, a driver's car should be one the driver has to utilize skills to extract the majority of the cars performance rather than the car making the driving look like something he is not. further, as has long been your argument re: porsche, the 430 now is a car that requires high speeds to approach fun. you've often said in the 360 spider with tubi you could experience a large % of the fun at street legal speeds. this is most certainly not the case with the 430 - by a long shot.

    it's sad because ferrari was one of the last hold outs in the sports car market but they too appear to have sold out with the 430 to the posuer who makes up a majority of their market (as it does for porsche/bmw/mb, etc). with any luck, they'll do what porsche has done to address the true enthusiast market via their GT2, GT3, and CGT by rolling out another stradale (this time with an option to get it without the granny tranny).

    the 430 is truly a fantastic car, but exciting sports car at anything not approaching it's limits it's not (IMO of course). all that said, the CS is probably a bit raw for the sort of daily driving duty the 430 is so very capable of doing. the CS actually gave me more than one headache (from the droning exhaust volume which is ever present with no sound deadening along with the carbon from which it bounces off of) when using it that way and phone (and passenger) conversations were very difficult if not often impossible.


    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:



    Given the huge premium the spider will be bringing, I'd consider trading (if you can buy at MSRP) just to make a buck



    I see you've changed your mind. Now, you would buy a car and flip it for the sake of profit. Not picking on you... just saying who wouldn't.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    svtrader1 said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:



    Given the huge premium the spider will be bringing, I'd consider trading (if you can buy at MSRP) just to make a buck



    I see you've changed your mind. Now, you would buy a car and flip it for the sake of profit. Not picking on you... just saying who wouldn't.



    i NEVER said i wouldn't do that. i'll buy low and sell high most anything legal. of course this makes the item an investment instead of a toy, and i like to use my sports cars as toys.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    I could get a Spider at MSRP. When I picked up my CS in September 2004 I made arrangements with the dealer to be one of their first Spider orders (conditionally -I had to sell my CS back to them) It's very tempting financially speaking. One of my issues is that I have really fallen in love with how my CS came out spec'd with the interior and colors I wanted. I have not seen one exactly like mine and I'm sure that would be a hang-up for me if I wanted to get back into one. I also think the 430coupe is a much better looking car than the convertible but don't see myself trading a CS for a 430coupe. In my area the spider will fetch a larger used car premium. But I don't want a car more suited for everyday use. I take out my CS once or twice a week (in good weather months) I like the way the 430 looks (almost as much as the CS) but it seems a bit too civilized. I've been hoping for some info on a 43O CS, even spy pics but it will probably be a while. Given my luck the day I took delivery of a Spider the CS would show up Dunno It's a good dilemma to have I guess.....Thanks for your input Ben..

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    I could get a Spider at MSRP. When I picked up my CS in September 2004 I made arrangements with the dealer to be one of their first Spider orders (conditionally -I had to sell my CS back to them) It's very tempting financially speaking. One of my issues is that I have really fallen in love with how my CS came out spec'd with the interior and colors I wanted. I have not seen one exactly like mine and I'm sure that would be a hang-up for me if I wanted to get back into one. I also think the 430coupe is a much better looking car than the convertible but don't see myself trading a CS for a 430coupe. In my area the spider will fetch a larger used car premium. But I don't want a car more suited for everyday use. I take out my CS once or twice a week (in good weather months) I like the way the 430 looks (almost as much as the CS) but it seems a bit too civilized. I've been hoping for some info on a 43O CS, even spy pics but it will probably be a while. Given my luck the day I took delivery of a Spider the CS would show up Dunno It's a good dilemma to have I guess.....Thanks for your input Ben..



    you seem the ideal candidate for a stradale and "unless" you utilize the top down option in the 430 spider, you will be ultra dissatisfied on a relative basis IMO. however, we are probably looking at $75 to $100K+ premiums for the spider which is darn near 1/2 a (360) stradale in profit alone (less the 7% your dealer gets on both your CS and spider for commission). if the uniqueness of your interior configuration is worth more to you than the $75 to $100K+ less 7% commission profit, then by all means keep the CS. that said, allowing the dealer to profit on the resale of your CS as well as your spider will likely insure your ability to get a CS at list should they make one.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    stradale, don't know if euro versions are diff in the ground clearance dept than euro ones, but you can see from this picture the 430 is way jacked up (particularly in the fronot) compared to your CS:






    I haven't really studied pics closely of the CS vs. the 430 on stance but it's pretty obvious now.

    I have a couple of very cool pics with a CS on a track and the car looks like it's sitting on it's tires but they aren't jpg etc. and I don't know how to convert them.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    I could get a Spider at MSRP. When I picked up my CS in September 2004 I made arrangements with the dealer to be one of their first Spider orders (conditionally -I had to sell my CS back to them) It's very tempting financially speaking. One of my issues is that I have really fallen in love with how my CS came out spec'd with the interior and colors I wanted. I have not seen one exactly like mine and I'm sure that would be a hang-up for me if I wanted to get back into one. I also think the 430coupe is a much better looking car than the convertible but don't see myself trading a CS for a 430coupe. In my area the spider will fetch a larger used car premium. But I don't want a car more suited for everyday use. I take out my CS once or twice a week (in good weather months) I like the way the 430 looks (almost as much as the CS) but it seems a bit too civilized. I've been hoping for some info on a 43O CS, even spy pics but it will probably be a while. Given my luck the day I took delivery of a Spider the CS would show up Dunno It's a good dilemma to have I guess.....Thanks for your input Ben..



    you seem the ideal candidate for a stradale and "unless" you utilize the top down option in the 430 spider, you will be ultra dissatisfied on a relative basis IMO. however, we are probably looking at $75 to $100K+ premiums for the spider which is darn near 1/2 a (360) stradale in profit alone (less the 7% your dealer gets on both your CS and spider for commission). if the uniqueness of your interior configuration is worth more to you than the $75 to $100K+ less 7% commission profit, then by all means keep the CS. that said, allowing the dealer to profit on the resale of your CS as well as your spider will likely insure your ability to get a CS at list should they make one.



    The convertible thing is a whole nother issue too. I'm taking delivery of a convertible in about 1 week. The last time I owned a convertible I was living in L.A.. I don't know 'weather' I'm going to like it or not. Hence another personal reason for sticking with the F coupe for now. Regarding the 430CS - That's the gamble I have to decide on asap. Will they make a 430 CS or not. If I knew for sure they will then I would make a switch now and then get a 430CS when it comes out. I agree, it's a hell of a lot of money to leave on the table even if there's no certainty to it.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    I could get a Spider at MSRP. When I picked up my CS in September 2004 I made arrangements with the dealer to be one of their first Spider orders (conditionally -I had to sell my CS back to them) It's very tempting financially speaking. One of my issues is that I have really fallen in love with how my CS came out spec'd with the interior and colors I wanted. I have not seen one exactly like mine and I'm sure that would be a hang-up for me if I wanted to get back into one. I also think the 430coupe is a much better looking car than the convertible but don't see myself trading a CS for a 430coupe. In my area the spider will fetch a larger used car premium. But I don't want a car more suited for everyday use. I take out my CS once or twice a week (in good weather months) I like the way the 430 looks (almost as much as the CS) but it seems a bit too civilized. I've been hoping for some info on a 43O CS, even spy pics but it will probably be a while. Given my luck the day I took delivery of a Spider the CS would show up Dunno It's a good dilemma to have I guess.....Thanks for your input Ben..



    you seem the ideal candidate for a stradale and "unless" you utilize the top down option in the 430 spider, you will be ultra dissatisfied on a relative basis IMO. however, we are probably looking at $75 to $100K+ premiums for the spider which is darn near 1/2 a (360) stradale in profit alone (less the 7% your dealer gets on both your CS and spider for commission). if the uniqueness of your interior configuration is worth more to you than the $75 to $100K+ less 7% commission profit, then by all means keep the CS. that said, allowing the dealer to profit on the resale of your CS as well as your spider will likely insure your ability to get a CS at list should they make one.



    I don't know 'weather' I'm going to like it or not.


    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    So you one of those people who subscribe to the philosophy that a good car is one that requires a driver to make it good?

    In my view, a near perfect car is one that make the driver near perfect.



    yes, a driver's car should be one the driver has to utilize skills to extract the majority of the cars performance rather than the car making the driving look like something he is not. further, as has long been your argument re: porsche, the 430 now is a car that requires high speeds to approach fun. you've often said in the 360 spider with tubi you could experience a large % of the fun at street legal speeds. this is most certainly not the case with the 430 - by a long shot.

    it's sad because ferrari was one of the last hold outs in the sports car market but they too appear to have sold out with the 430 to the posuer who makes up a majority of their market (as it does for porsche/bmw/mb, etc). with any luck, they'll do what porsche has done to address the true enthusiast market via their GT2, GT3, and CGT by rolling out another stradale (this time with an option to get it without the granny tranny).

    the 430 is truly a fantastic car, but exciting sports car at anything not approaching it's limits it's not (IMO of course). all that said, the CS is probably a bit raw for the sort of daily driving duty the 430 is so very capable of doing. the CS actually gave me more than one headache (from the droning exhaust volume which is ever present with no sound deadening along with the carbon from which it bounces off of) when using it that way and phone (and passenger) conversations were very difficult if not often impossible.





    In my view, any car that that is set up for catastrophic failure should the driver make an error in judgment at speed is a coffin with 4 wheels.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Quote:
    ben, lj said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    So you one of those people who subscribe to the philosophy that a good car is one that requires a driver to make it good?

    In my view, a near perfect car is one that make the driver near perfect.



    yes, a driver's car should be one the driver has to utilize skills to extract the majority of the cars performance rather than the car making the driving look like something he is not. further, as has long been your argument re: porsche, the 430 now is a car that requires high speeds to approach fun. you've often said in the 360 spider with tubi you could experience a large % of the fun at street legal speeds. this is most certainly not the case with the 430 - by a long shot.

    it's sad because ferrari was one of the last hold outs in the sports car market but they too appear to have sold out with the 430 to the posuer who makes up a majority of their market (as it does for porsche/bmw/mb, etc). with any luck, they'll do what porsche has done to address the true enthusiast market via their GT2, GT3, and CGT by rolling out another stradale (this time with an option to get it without the granny tranny).

    the 430 is truly a fantastic car, but exciting sports car at anything not approaching it's limits it's not (IMO of course). all that said, the CS is probably a bit raw for the sort of daily driving duty the 430 is so very capable of doing. the CS actually gave me more than one headache (from the droning exhaust volume which is ever present with no sound deadening along with the carbon from which it bounces off of) when using it that way and phone (and passenger) conversations were very difficult if not often impossible.





    In my view, any car that that is set up for catastrophic failure should the driver make an error in judgment at speed is a coffin with 4 wheels.



    Nick, trust Bens comments about that. Hes not kidding you.
    The car has 485 hp, tires/wheels as wide as steam rollers
    and a suspension that cleverly disguises the cars weight
    to the driver. Velocity and Mass are not felt as easily
    by the driver as in Ferraris past, but the "terminal"
    physics are still there in spades.

    Flip the F430 for big profit now and get a cherry
    F355 instead.

    Just my two cents on it all.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    In my view, any car that that is set up for catastrophic failure should the driver make an error in judgment at speed is a coffin with 4 wheels.


    Nick, every car that I know of is a potentially lethal device. One inattentive moment at highway speeds can cause death to oneself or others (crossing the double yellow line with oncoming traffic at 65mph for instance). Your statement is folly. Unless the car is going to steer itself as well as accelerate and brake, the driver is going to have some responsibility for his and others' safety. You have to realize this is a subjective criterion and many would call your F430 a rolling coffin...

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Involvement as a criterion doesn't have to come at the expense of having a dangerous car. In fact, that very communcation allows the driver to learn what's truely going on. The danger comes when a driver used to electronic aids puts himself into a situation where the electronics can no longer help him, or drives a car without electtronic aids.

    It's still up to the nut behind the wheel to make driving safe.

    The problem is that a lot of people can go faster in less involving cars, because the danger signs that would scare them away are not transmitted as clearly. Also, since more hardcore drivers tend to prefer cars that communicate so well, the suspension setups also reflect this. The distinction between communicaiton and setup should not be overlooked.

    Obviously I have no basis to comment on the F430, so this is just a general comment. But the market seems to be moving in a clear direction, as car companies are merely responding to what people will buy and what they enjoy.

    As long as basic sports cars built for a very narrow purpose are still made, I will be happy.

    - J

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    Grant said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    In my view, any car that that is set up for catastrophic failure should the driver make an error in judgment at speed is a coffin with 4 wheels.


    Nick, every car that I know of is a potentially lethal device. One inattentive moment at highway speeds can cause death to oneself or others (crossing the double yellow line with oncoming traffic at 65mph for instance). Your statement is folly. Unless the car is going to steer itself as well as accelerate and brake, the driver is going to have some responsibility for his and others' safety. You have to realize this is a subjective criterion and many would call your F430 a rolling coffin...



    You missed my point. Cars designed for extreme speed and handling need some safety factors built in. Cars which are designed for speed and performance but without safety features in order to allow the driver to explore the very limits of the car (ahem, for the "true" drivers) are the coffins with 4 wheels. Ferrari does have a setting to allow for this. Porsche GT2 and GT3 do not have any safety factors.

    I believe the CGT has a very minimal elctronic aid and that is because W. Rorhl insisted on it after he crashed two CGT's.

    Justin I agree there is some driver responsibility even when electronic aids are available.

    Re: Autocar May 10 th issue re: the 430

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Cars which are designed for speed and performance but without safety features in order to allow the driver to explore the very limits of the car (ahem, for the "true" drivers) are the coffins with 4 wheels. Ferrari does have a setting to allow for this.



    Which specific setting are you thinking of, Nick?

     
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