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    Almost had a serious accident..

    Today, in parts of the UK, we had a month's rainfall in just 24 hours!

    I was driving home in my GTS, on a very familiar route, when the incident occurred.  I approached an uphill section of straight dual carriageway and, as there were no other vehicles around, I dropped a few gears and gave it the gun - something I've done on numerous previous occasions.  Usually I just get a chance to hit the red-line a couple of times before reaching the top of the hill..Smiley   This time however... as soon as I accelerated the rear end broke away and continued to snake left and right whilst I instinctively sawed at the wheel to correct the sliding...Smiley 

    I've never had this happen on a straight road before and it must have lasted at least 10 seconds which, at the speed I was doing, was unnerving to say the least..Smiley 

    When the car finally stabilised, I became aware of a 'river' of water, from the rainfall, rushing down the hill I was driving up.  I guess this, together with my sudden acceleration, was the reason for the rear end breakaway... probably causing an aqua-planing situation.  I wasn't aware of any intervention from the PSM. 

    Anyone else had a similar experience? Smiley

       


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Good to hear you're ok. We've been getting a lot of rain here too, even if it's a stretch of road you know a little extra caution is always required when it's raining. And not to sound rude my friend but you kind of brought that one on, uphill, pouring rain, RWD, and dropping a few gears, kindda pushing it a bit there John Smiley


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    John, glad nothing serious happened and the rear of your car didn't crash into a barrier or something. frown

    I had once a similar experience, when I pushed the accelerator in my F360 a little bit too much. I didn't have a river of water, but it was relatively wet and so it took some time until I (as well as the electronics...) could finally stabilise the car. Well, I wasn't really close to an accident but it definitely wasn't not a good feeling... enlightened


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    First good to hear you are OK John! its a good thing you were accelerating in straight line.

    Yes, I have had it happen a few times on the wet but for maybe 2-3 seconds, not 10 seconds!!!

     

    For sure the PSM was lighting up like a chrismas tree under such a situation helping correct yaw and modulating the throttle input, its just that it can be fairly smooth and the last thing you think about is looking at the dash light 1341612523289drive1.gif


    --


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Enmanuel:

    Good to hear you're ok... even if it's a stretch of road you know a little extra caution is always required when it's raining. And not to sound rude my friend but you kind of brought that one on, uphill, pouring rain, RWD, and dropping a few gears, kindda pushing it a bit there John Smiley

    +1

    I'm just glad you're safe mate. Please take care of yourself.

    One question: PSM didn't activate? Were you using Sport Plus in Sport Chrono Package Plus?


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    A friend of mine crashed in similar circumstances a few years ago in a 996 4S. AWD didn't help at all.

    The combination of very wide, ultra performance tyres with shallow tread ( only 7mm when new and less after one year) and standing water call for extra caution. 

    The PSM worked for sure but I think you weren't looking at the dash at the time. Your eyes must have been fixed on the road ahead.

    I am glad it was nothing more than a scare and only a reference for the future.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    John H:

    Anyone else had a similar experience? Smiley

    Good to hear that you are ok! Smiley

    Yes, I had a similar experience while entering the highway in my previous 997.1 Turbo. In a long sweeping turn I hit a pool of standing water, got aquaplaning and the car rotated around it's own axis. Sadly the rotation ended in a concrete wall and the car was damaged beyond repair (I got out without a scratch).

    From that moment on I am being super careful when it is raining...


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Glad you got away with only your heart pumping at red line !!

    I also had a similar experience, with my brother's GT3 . The car went left, right, left, right  etc.... and I ended up in the ditch . Luckelly no car came from the other side and I only damaged a rim and slightly the bottom of the door as the car hit a small poll.

    We sometimes can forget how powerful our cars are and that not much can make the difference between unbelievable  grip and loosing the car . 

    The RWD 911 does not like lots of water on the road . 


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Hi John - must have been a scary few seconds - glad you and your magnificent car survived unscathed cheeky

    I do hope you weren't wearing expensive trousers at the time........angry


    --

    Porsche 997 Carrera S PDK Aqua Blue / Black - Toyota Yaris D4D  "Clockwork Rat"


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Be careful, with that amount of rain on the road, it's easy to lose it. I drive super careful in all rainy situations because i've had a couple of close calls like yourself. My old BMWs had no electronic aids, but I doubt they are of any use in such specific situations.


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    The problems with Porsche sportscars in a downpour are:

    1. Very wide tyres, especially the rears
    2. Ultra high performance summer tyres with shallow tread for dry road grip. I've never tried winter tyres. These tyres can hardly evacuate large amounts of water so the tyre is on a layer of water instead of touching the asphalt
    3. Low weight relative to other cars. 

    I think mid-engined cars are worse because of less weight on the axles.

    BTW there was a test of the 981S in the "Autocar" in rainy conditions and they were not impressed. They attributed this to the 20" wheels and the P Zero tyres. If you remember the 991 also underperformed in the SA wet handling test. Porsche should pay more attention to these things since they want to present their sportscars as all day and all season transport.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    I'm glad that you're o.k., John Smiley Reminds me of a buddy destroying his 997.1 S Cab while following me in the BoxsterS on a wet Nordschleife Smiley He lost the car at Quiddelbacher Hoehe, which is also a steep uphill straight. Unlike me he used the dry line, where some dangerous small "riivers" are waiting when it's raining....


    --

    public roads: Porsche 987 S Seal/Cocoa, toll road Smiley : Porsche 997 GT3 Arctic/Black


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    John H:

    Anyone else had a similar experience? Smiley

       

    Errr, everyday in all conditions in all gears up to and including 4th...... 950NM and rear wheel driveSmiley

    It makes you wonder how we managed to keep the non TC/PSM 911s on the road at all Smiley


    --



     

    3.9  GT2 2011 make over


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Enmanuel:

    Good to hear you're ok. We've been getting a lot of rain here too, even if it's a stretch of road you know a little extra caution is always required when it's raining. And not to sound rude my friend but you kind of brought that one on, uphill, pouring rain, RWD, and dropping a few gears, kindda pushing it a bit there John Smiley

    Thanks Enma - It wasn't actually raining at the time.  The uphill road I was driving is a dual carriageway by-pass built to reduce traffic-flow through a village.  It was constructed by cutting into high ground forming embankments to both reduce noise to the village and also to level it somewhat.

    The water was pouring from the higher ground on to the road as a result of very heavy rain earlier in the day.  You are right though, I should have anticipated that...Smiley 

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Rossi:

    John, glad nothing serious happened and the rear of your car didn't crash into a barrier or something. frown

    I had once a similar experience, when I pushed the accelerator in my F360 a little bit too much. I didn't have a river of water, but it was relatively wet and so it took some time until I (as well as the electronics...) could finally stabilise the car. Well, I wasn't really close to an accident but it definitely wasn't not a good feeling... Smiley

    Thanks Rossi - Hitting the central barrier on my offside, or the embankment on my nearside, was very much on the cards.. and on my mind!  The whole thing was an eye-opener which I sincerely hope won't be repeated..

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Carlos from Spain:

    First good to hear you are OK John! its a good thing you were accelerating in straight line. Yes, I have had it happen a few times on the wet but for maybe 2-3 seconds, not 10 seconds!!!

    For sure the PSM was lighting up like a chrismas tree under such a situation helping correct yaw and modulating the throttle input, its just that it can be fairly smooth and the last thing you think about is looking at the dash light

    Thanks Carlos - I'm sure you're right that it probably wasn't as long as10 seconds, but it sure as hell felt like a long time..!

    I'm still not sure if PSM cut in - I came off the throttle as soon as the tail broke away and my first thought was a tyre had blown.  I remember glancing down at the TPMS reading for a split second to check.  I'm sure I would have seen the PSM activated warning light at that time?... Does it still activate even when no throttle is being used?  Smiley

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    easy_rider911:

    I'm just glad you're safe mate. Please take care of yourself.

    One question: PSM didn't activate? Were you using Sport Plus in Sport Chrono Package Plus?

    Thanks Easy - I'll try.. Smiley 

    I was in Sport and Auto modes at the time, but changed down using the paddle..from 6th to 3rd..

     

     

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    reginos:

    The PSM worked for sure but I think you weren't looking at the dash at the time. Your eyes must have been fixed on the road ahead.

    As I replied to Carlos, I glanced at the TPMS reading.  Surely I would have seen the PSM flashing? Smiley

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    bluelines:
    John H:

    Anyone else had a similar experience? Smiley

    Good to hear that you are ok! Smiley

    Yes, I had a similar experience while entering the highway in my previous 997.1 Turbo. In a long sweeping turn I hit a pool of standing water, got aquaplaning and the car rotated around it's own axis. Sadly the rotation ended in a concrete wall and the car was damaged beyond repair (I got out without a scratch).

    From that moment on I am being super careful when it is raining...

    Really sorry to hear that but glad you got away without injury...Smiley

    I could understand it more in a sweeping turn - I just didn't expect it in a straight line..

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Gnil:

    Glad you got away with only your heart pumping at red line !!

    I also had a similar experience, with my brother's GT3 . The car went left, right, left, right  etc.... and I ended up in the ditch . Luckelly no car came from the other side and I only damaged a rim and slightly the bottom of the door as the car hit a small poll.

    We sometimes can forget how powerful our cars are and that not much can make the difference between unbelievable grip and loosing the car . 

    The RWD 911 does not like lots of water on the road . 

    Thanks Gnil... yes it was pumping a bit for sure! 

    Did you work out why your car snaked and were you aware of any electronic involvement?

     

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    dreamcar:

    Hi John - must have been a scary few seconds - glad you and your magnificent car survived unscathed cheeky

    I do hope you weren't wearing expensive trousers at the time........angry

    Thanks DC - I was wearing my cheap brown ones... Smiley

     

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Porsche-Jeck:

    I'm glad that you're o.k., John Smiley Reminds me of a buddy destroying his 997.1 S Cab while following me in the BoxsterS on a wet Nordschleife Smiley He lost the car at Quiddelbacher Hoehe, which is also a steep uphill straight. Unlike me he used the dry line, where some dangerous small "riivers" are waiting when it's raining....

    Thanks Achim - Your friend's experience makes me feel very fortunate...Smiley

    Did he come straight off the throttle?  Surely he wouldn't have braked?  Was there any PSM involvement?

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    TB993tt:
    John H:
    Anyone else had a similar experience? Smiley  

    Errr, everyday in all conditions in all gears up to and including 4th...... 950NM and rear wheel driveSmiley

    It makes you wonder how we managed to keep the non TC/PSM 911s on the road at all Smiley

    The design of a 911 still defies the law of physics.. even today, but you wouldn't think so to drive one!

    Earlier models, in the 'good old days', gave the driver every indication that... make one mistake and you're in big trouble!!! Smiley

    My 'incident' shows that sometimes, with newer models, we're being lulled into a false sense of security...Smiley

     

     


    --

    "Things turn out best for people who make the best of the way things turn out."


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    My guess is the "snaking"  could happen if one does not counter steer quick enough with the correct amount of steering. Unless one is super quick to counter the rear end breaking out it could move over too far to the other side with a "slower" counter steer. It is almost like drifting left-right-left-right... An impressive maneuver if you have it under control. Bloody scary if not.

    Your PSM must have been engaged, but it cannot do magic  Especially in Sport mode where it allows some slip and expects you to handle it. On track days when it is wet I usually turn Sport mode off to have PSM engage as soon as the limit is approaching.

    If you truly have aquaplane neither PSM nor AWD will help. You have no friction between the tires and the road surface and the car will move on it's own inertia (directional and rotational). Steering and braking will have no effect. 

    Have you done much track days? Post my accident I did the first PSDS course three (!) times to learn how the car behaves on very slippery surfaces at and beyond the limit (with and without PSM). Very helpful.

     


    --

    997.2 Carrera S in Carrara White. PASM-Sport Suspension (-20 mm), PSE.

    987.1 Boxster S in Arctic Silver. OZ Racing Ultraleggera Wheels, H&R Monotube Coil-Over Suspension, H&R Anti-Roll Bars, Sachs Racing Clutch, Single-Mass Flywheel, IPD Plenum, GT3 Throttle Body, Recaro Pole Position Seats, PSE, Alpine Head Unit and Amplifier, Focal Speakers


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    John H:
    Carlos from Spain:

    First good to hear you are OK John! its a good thing you were accelerating in straight line. Yes, I have had it happen a few times on the wet but for maybe 2-3 seconds, not 10 seconds!!!

    For sure the PSM was lighting up like a chrismas tree under such a situation helping correct yaw and modulating the throttle input, its just that it can be fairly smooth and the last thing you think about is looking at the dash light

    Thanks Carlos - I'm sure you're right that it probably wasn't as long as10 seconds, but it sure as hell felt like a long time..!

    I didn't mean to say that it wasn't 10 seconds, only that the times that it has happened to me were probably not a severe as yours and lasted much less. And even if it wasn't 10 seconds, perception of time does seem to slow down in such situations, even 5 seconds of tail waving trying to regain control is nerve racking enough!

    I'm still not sure if PSM cut in - I came off the throttle as soon as the tail broke away and my first thought was a tyre had blown.  I remember glancing down at the TPMS reading for a split second to check.  I'm sure I would have seen the PSM activated warning light at that time?... Does it still activate even when no throttle is being used?  Smiley

    PSM will engage even if the throttle is not being used, as long as its sensors detects loss of control, if its severe enough it will come on, and one of the mayor signs for the PSM is changes in yaw such as that pendular oversteer you experienced, as well as preceding the loss of traction in the rears under acceleration that initiated the incident.

    PSM can be very helpfull that situation by acting on the outside rear and inside front wheel's brakes via ABS individually (something we cannot due with just the brake pedal) to fight against the oversteer and helping straightening out the car.

    Also while coming off the throttle suddently (as oppposed to progressively) when the rear broke traction is a natural reflex reaction we all have instinctively but it may also have contributed to promote a more violent oversteer too. I remember once I was on a fast curve accelerating in 3rd gear under the rain once when another car jumped into my left lane without looking  and I was forced to lift of suddently the throttle to avoid collision due to out difference in speed, and sure enough PSM came on to help me control the subsecuent tail snap oversteer, and frankly I don't know if I would have made it out of that one without the PSM, the speed, being in a curve, raining and lifting after being accelerating on a rear engined car... everything was against me... but managed to walk out of it without harm but with a serious warning. PSM cannot defeat physics, but I'm sure glad its there for when it can.


    --


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    John H:

    Today, in parts of the UK, we had a month's rainfall in just 24 hours!

    I was driving home in my GTS, on a very familiar route, when the incident occurred.  I approached an uphill section of straight dual carriageway and, as there were no other vehicles around, I dropped a few gears and gave it the gun - something I've done on numerous previous occasions.  Usually I just get a chance to hit the red-line a couple of times before reaching the top of the hill..Smiley   This time however... as soon as I accelerated the rear end broke away and continued to snake left and right whilst I instinctively sawed at the wheel to correct the sliding...Smiley

    I've never had this happen on a straight road before and it must have lasted at least 10 seconds which, at the speed I was doing, was unnerving to say the least..Smiley

    When the car finally stabilised, I became aware of a 'river' of water, from the rainfall, rushing down the hill I was driving up.  I guess this, together with my sudden acceleration, was the reason for the rear end breakaway... probably causing an aqua-planing situation.  I wasn't aware of any intervention from the PSM. 

    Anyone else had a similar experience? Smiley

       

     Glad to know nothing bad happened with you or the car. Anyway, I love when it happens on mine while doing on purpose, that´s why I love this car, it can be wild if you try it SmileyThere´s a strech of road near my house with very slippery "white tarmac" and rear end just dances there when power is given, what a join Smiley

    J.Seven


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Glad your 10 sec white knuckle ride ended good, John....

    Did the Mrs put you on the naughty boy step,,,,,, again... surprise indecision...


    --

    throt

    "I didn't do it"


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    I doubt it was 10 seconds but it felt like it for certain!  We call that a 'Tank slapper'. 

    Sounds like typical aqua-planeing to me.  Schumi says when it is dry the tires speak to me, when it is wet they whisper.  Maybe you should listen more to the whisper.

    Finally - you all knew I could not resist - my Conti DWS have excellent traction in water!  Much more so than any 'N' tire.  Wet race anyone?


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    Here we go again ... N Spec tyres are a waste of money ... blah blah blah ...

    It's so funny that someone can accept Porsche's expertise in designing and building a sports car but heaven forbid they should ever recommend which tyre you should use Smiley

    --

    997.1 C2S GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


    Re: Almost had a serious accident..

    John H:

    The design of a 911 still defies the law of physics.. even today, but you wouldn't think so to drive one!

    Earlier models, in the 'good old days', gave the driver every indication that... make one mistake and you're in big trouble!!! Smiley

    My 'incident' shows that sometimes, with newer models, we're being lulled into a false sense of security...Smiley.

    +1 ... never forget that there are just 4 small contact patches connecting you with the road ... in the rain, ice, snow etc, safety is all important ... I restrict myself to enjoy spirited driving only when the road surface is dry and I can feel the limits of grip ...


    --


    997.1 C2S
     GT Silver/Cocoa, -20mm/LSD, PSE, short shifter, SportDesign rims, Zuffenhausen pickup, BMW Z4 2.5i Roadster Sterling Grey/Red


     
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