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    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Sadly, I think you may be right. If I recall correctly, of the $86 Million California is making them pay, only $10 Million goes to car owners, while the remaining $76 Million goes into the state coffers.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    It is very disappointing how VW is treating their German customers. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    A question:

    "Has there been a definitive statement coming either from VW, or from the German regulatory agencies as to who made the decision to modify the emissions software and how high up the management chain was it known??"


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    964C2:

    A question:

    "Has there been a definitive statement coming either from VW, or from the German regulatory agencies as to who made the decision to modify the emissions software and how high up the management chain was it known??"

    Not yet...apparently and I doubt it will happen. Actually, I get the feeling that the German government wants the whole thing to go away fast because jobs are at stake and they don't want to p.ss off people.

    On the contrary, in Germany many people are outraged because "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." blame Volkswagen for a "minor" offense and that American customers get many benefits and German customers none.

    Not easy for Volkswagen...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    964C2:

    A question:

    "Has there been a definitive statement coming either from VW, or from the German regulatory agencies as to who made the decision to modify the emissions software and how high up the management chain was it known??"

    Not yet...apparently and I doubt it will happen. Actually, I get the feeling that the German government wants the whole thing to go away fast because jobs are at stake and they don't want to p.ss off people.

    On the contrary, in Germany many people are outraged because "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." blame Volkswagen for a "minor" offense and that American customers get many benefits and German customers none.

    Not easy for Volkswagen...

    RC - The statement,  "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." is ironic since very few cars today actually have V8 engines and those that do meet all the EPA Emissions Standards. They have to meet these standards every year with annual testing. Where as the VW diesels do not and they pollute at 40 times the NOx standard, hardly "minor".


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    964C2:
    RC:
    964C2:

    A question:

    "Has there been a definitive statement coming either from VW, or from the German regulatory agencies as to who made the decision to modify the emissions software and how high up the management chain was it known??"

    Not yet...apparently and I doubt it will happen. Actually, I get the feeling that the German government wants the whole thing to go away fast because jobs are at stake and they don't want to p.ss off people.

    On the contrary, in Germany many people are outraged because "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." blame Volkswagen for a "minor" offense and that American customers get many benefits and German customers none.

    Not easy for Volkswagen...

    RC - The statement,  "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." is ironic since very few cars today actually have V8 engines and those that do meet all the EPA Emissions Standards. They have to meet these standards every year with annual testing. Where as the VW diesels do not and they pollute at 40 times the NOx standard, hardly "minor".

    Of course it is ironic and the whole scandal is about NOx anyway, not about CO2 but if you get "educated" over here that big engines are bad for the environment and Diesel engines are great, you start to believe that. Add the NSA affair and the Snowden whistleblowing to the mix and you get a very strong anti-US mood in the population and this includes of course that whole VW emissions scandal as well. There are even right wing (actually more Nazis than right wing) nut jobs over here who think that the US authorities targeted VW because they are so successful. Smiley

    You can't beat a good conspiracy theory... Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:
    964C2:
    RC:
    964C2:

    A question:

    "Has there been a definitive statement coming either from VW, or from the German regulatory agencies as to who made the decision to modify the emissions software and how high up the management chain was it known??"

    Not yet...apparently and I doubt it will happen. Actually, I get the feeling that the German government wants the whole thing to go away fast because jobs are at stake and they don't want to p.ss off people.

    On the contrary, in Germany many people are outraged because "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." blame Volkswagen for a "minor" offense and that American customers get many benefits and German customers none.

    Not easy for Volkswagen...

    RC - The statement,  "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." is ironic since very few cars today actually have V8 engines and those that do meet all the EPA Emissions Standards. They have to meet these standards every year with annual testing. Where as the VW diesels do not and they pollute at 40 times the NOx standard, hardly "minor".

    Of course it is ironic and the whole scandal is about NOx anyway, not about CO2 but if you get "educated" over here that big engines are bad for the environment and Diesel engines are great, you start to believe that. Add the NSA affair and the Snowden whistleblowing to the mix and you get a very strong anti-US mood in the population and this includes of course that whole VW emissions scandal as well. There are even right wing (actually more Nazis than right wing) nut jobs over here who think that the US authorities targeted VW because they are so successful. Smiley

    You can't beat a good conspiracy theory... Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    You're right......Smiley


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    964C2:
    RC:
    964C2:
    RC:
    964C2:

    A question:

    "Has there been a definitive statement coming either from VW, or from the German regulatory agencies as to who made the decision to modify the emissions software and how high up the management chain was it known??"

    Not yet...apparently and I doubt it will happen. Actually, I get the feeling that the German government wants the whole thing to go away fast because jobs are at stake and they don't want to p.ss off people.

    On the contrary, in Germany many people are outraged because "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." blame Volkswagen for a "minor" offense and that American customers get many benefits and German customers none.

    Not easy for Volkswagen...

    RC - The statement,  "Americans with their dirty V8 engines..." is ironic since very few cars today actually have V8 engines and those that do meet all the EPA Emissions Standards. They have to meet these standards every year with annual testing. Where as the VW diesels do not and they pollute at 40 times the NOx standard, hardly "minor".

    Of course it is ironic and the whole scandal is about NOx anyway, not about CO2 but if you get "educated" over here that big engines are bad for the environment and Diesel engines are great, you start to believe that. Add the NSA affair and the Snowden whistleblowing to the mix and you get a very strong anti-US mood in the population and this includes of course that whole VW emissions scandal as well. There are even right wing (actually more Nazis than right wing) nut jobs over here who think that the US authorities targeted VW because they are so successful. Smiley

    You can't beat a good conspiracy theory... Smiley Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     

    You're right......Smiley

    You can't even beat a bad conspiracy theory .......... Smiley


    --

    fritz


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)



    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Volkswagen Scandal Reaches All the Way to the Top, Lawsuits Say

    "... the New York civil complaint, drawing on internal Volkswagen documents, emails and witness statements, depicts a corporate culture that allowed a “willful and systematic scheme of cheating.” The evidence paints the most detailed picture yet about how the deception unfolded and who was responsible.

    The suits identified six different defeat devices, saying the deception was an “iterative process” that started with an Audi model. They described the device as a cost-saving measure, because meeting American emissions standards would have required an overhaul of the vehicles. The suits stopped short of accusing Mr. Müller of having specific knowledge of the devices.

    -and-

    “This is an example of a company that not only engaged in deception and fraud on a brazen scale but covered up that deception,” Ms. Healey, the Massachusetts attorney general, said at the news conference. The conduct “reflects a corporate culture that had no regard for the law, no respect for the American people and no regard for the environment or people’s health.”

    http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/20/business/international/volkswagen-ny-attorney-general-emissions-scandal.html?_r=0

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    This one may not end well.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    VW doesn't seem to understand US mentality, this was also reflected in the failure to establish the brand perception in the US. While VW had a very good brand perception in Europe before the scandal, in the US it was pretty bad already for various reasons.

    Instead of taking a lot of money into their hands and make this go away in the US, VW has tried to stall, to play games and to get a better deal out of the US scandal. This will backfire for sure...

    They actually did the same in Europe but over here, customers seem to blame the US instead of blaming VW. Smiley Smiley Unfortunately, the German law lets VW get away with it, especially since the government is rather more worried about a possible loss of jobs at VW than helping affected VW customers.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    RC:

    VW doesn't seem to understand US mentality, this was also reflected in the failure to establish the brand perception in the US. While VW had a very good brand perception in Europe before the scandal, in the US it was pretty bad already for various reasons. ...

    And they don't seem to be any closer to understanding it:

    http://blog.caranddriver.com/make-volkswagen-great-again-vw-says-three-row-suvs-name-will-sound-american/

    Hey, VW, hint, your problems are not related to vehicle names, and different names in the US vs the ROW just creates confusion.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Would not a diesel by an other name still smell as sooty?  blush




    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    This is really taking a turn for the worse for VW: DOJ Finds Evidence of Criminal Wrongdoing in VW Diesel Scandal, Extradition Not Ruled Out


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Bosch implicated: 

    Robert Bosch began playing a key role in developing Volkswagen Group's emission-cheating technology as early as the late 1990s, lawyers for VW owners said in a U.S. court filing that includes detailed allegations against the German supplier.

    Bosch was an "active participant in a massive, decade-long conspiracy with VW," the lawyers said.

    The world's largest auto parts supplier has been a defendant in the case as VW negotiated a multibillion-dollar U.S. buyback plan for diesel vehicles rigged to cheat pollution-control tests.

    Evidence obtained by car owners shows that Bosch participated in both the development of the defeat device and in the scheme to prevent U.S. regulators from uncovering the device's true functionality, according to the filing Tuesday in San Francisco federal court.

    -- http://www.autonews.com/article/20160818/COPY01/308189978/bosch-had-key-role-in-vw-emissions-fraud-lawyers-claim

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    apias:

    Bosch implicated: 

    Robert Bosch began playing a key role in developing Volkswagen Group's emission-cheating technology as early as the late 1990s, lawyers for VW owners said in a U.S. court filing that includes detailed allegations against the German supplier.

    Bosch was an "active participant in a massive, decade-long conspiracy with VW," the lawyers said.

    The world's largest auto parts supplier has been a defendant in the case as VW negotiated a multibillion-dollar U.S. buyback plan for diesel vehicles rigged to cheat pollution-control tests.

    Evidence obtained by car owners shows that Bosch participated in both the development of the defeat device and in the scheme to prevent U.S. regulators from uncovering the device's true functionality, according to the filing Tuesday in San Francisco federal court.

    -- http://www.autonews.com/article/20160818/COPY01/308189978/bosch-had-key-role-in-vw-emissions-fraud-lawyers-claim

    Lots of previous speculation that Bosch had to know something about what was going on.  

    Looks like some lawyers found maybe something.


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2016-09-27/doj-assessing-size-criminal-penalty-it-can-levy-volkswagen-without-putting-company-o


    --

    Mike

    918 Spyder + 991 GT3 RS +Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Today, the prosecutors in Stuttgart/Germany officially opened a case vs. Porsche Germany and apparently Porsche NA.

    http://www.staatsanwaltschaft-stuttgart.de/pb/,Lde/Startseite/Pressemitteilungen/Ermittlungen+gegen+unbekannte+Mitarbeiter+der+P...

    Lots of trouble ahead, this is about the Diesel engines only...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet (2015), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Police raid going on right now (April 18th 2018, 11 am) at Porsche Germany and some of their various locations here.


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    It looks like they are targetting three people specifically.

    https://www.thelocal.de/20180418/porsche-executives-have-offices-raided-as-part-of-fraud-investigation

     



    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    And here people were saying Porsche did no wrong, it was all Audi and VW hah.


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    noone1:

    And here people were saying Porsche did no wrong, it was all Audi and VW hah.

    Mr. Kerner worked for Audi before he came to Porsche (2011?), so maybe... Smiley

    It is pretty sad that something like that happened.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991.2 Carrera GTS Cabriolet (2018), Porsche Cayenne S Diesel (2017), Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mini JCW (2015)


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    Sad indeed. Makes you wonder how one gets to such a point. A sequence of small ill-advised decisions, each of which seemed to carry limited risk? Or one big conspiracy?

     


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    KMM:

    Sad indeed. Makes you wonder how one gets to such a point. A sequence of small ill-advised decisions, each of which seemed to carry limited risk? Or one big conspiracy?

     

    Probably a series of smaller, cascading decisions. First, the regulatory agents put in regulations too difficult to economically meet, but were lax to enforce.   As time went on, senior management and marketing demanded more, but those involved continue to take the easy way coupled with weak enforcement until those actions became so profligate that the regulatory could not avoid taking action.  


    Re: VW caught cheating emissions tests

    The old guard taking shortcuts rather than doing things the right way.


     
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