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    997 RS: The future classic?

    The 997 GT3 RS will be a future classic like the 993 RS?

    Or it will lost the value like the 996 when the next RS come out?

    Any comments about that?

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Classic or not the car is probaly one of the most beautiful porsches ever built. It has everything a porsche should have. Could use a little more power say 500Hp would make it a perfect car for me. Considering the limited numbers they are producing especially comparing MY07 and MY08, I think they will be a classic or until the next generation rolls out. Either way, especially if they limit the numbers, I believe it will be a classic. Just my opinion.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Sure is one of the best looking cars ever to be built by Porsche...
    Classic??? Quite possibly. I'm doubting the next generation RS will have a flat 6 and that model will also probably have DSG or whatever, so this will probably be the last of this type...

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    It is too early for it to be a classic. A modern classic, maybe but there are so many damn good cars being produced. Maybe in ten years time we can possibly look back and gauge whether or not the 997 GT3 RS is a car we will remember.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Like with all collectibles , ask us in about 30-35 years , when today's 12- 15 y/o s just discovering today's hottest sports cars reach their prime earnings years combined with mid-life crisis and want items that recapture their carefree youth . That's the way it's always been in the vintage/classic mkt.
    Explains today's million dollar values of unmolested examples of some of Detroit's rarer late 60s/early 70s muscle cars that sold for under 10 grand back then.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Like with all collectibles , ask us in about 30-35 years , when today's 12- 15 y/o s just discovering today's hottest sports cars reach their prime earnings years combined with mid-life crisis and want items that recapture their carefree youth . That's the way it's always been in the vintage/classic mkt.
    Explains today's million dollar values of unmolested examples of some of Detroit's rarer late 60s/early 70s muscle cars that sold for under 10 grand back then.



    Well put... Basically ANYTHING is a future "classic", as nostalgia and time morphs even what you may consider as mundane today, into what will retrospectively/potentially be seen as "ultra-cool" when seen on the road in pristine condition decades from now.

    As time marches on, and expectations change, and modernization goes forward, don't just look for "rare" and "exclusive" cars to become "classic"... Look for anything that was polarizing, iconic, revolutionary, or just plain nifty and/or good looking in its day, to proudly and deservedly attain that status..

    Think about it... A 1957 Chevy Bel Air is a "classic"... When new, it was an entry-level passenger car a bus driver could afford.

    The only time that things don't achieve a venerable status, is when the nostalgia isn't there, when the memories are not fond. A cheap car that you were proud to be seen in turns classic, i.e. Ford Mustang... But a cheap car you were embarrassed to be seen in, i.e. AMC Rambler..., well, it ain't much of a classic at all...

    But there's an ass for every seat in the car collector world. There are guys out there who collect Pintos even...

    It's a wonderful hobby, for those who understand it, and don't believe it's all about having the most valuable collection or car...

    BOTTOM LINE, you're looking for superior design, and excellence in packaging for purpose, at any price-point... That's why a 1963 Ford Falcon Convertible can fetch the same money today as a 1967 912. And sometimes just an oddball history and being "unique" can gain collectible status and good value, like Edsel..

    The rare cars and the million-dollar cars are all kinda like solar flares, that shoot off of an enormous sun...

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    Like with all collectibles , ask us in about 30-35 years , when today's 12- 15 y/o s just discovering today's hottest sports cars reach their prime earnings years combined with mid-life crisis and want items that recapture their carefree youth . That's the way it's always been in the vintage/classic mkt.
    Explains today's million dollar values of unmolested examples of some of Detroit's rarer late 60s/early 70s muscle cars that sold for under 10 grand back then.



    Well put... Basically ANYTHING is a future "classic", as nostalgia and time morphs even what you may consider as mundane today, into what will retrospectively/potentially be seen as "ultra-cool" when seen on the road in pristine condition decades from now.

    As time marches on, and expectations change, and modernization goes forward, don't just look for "rare" and "exclusive" cars to become "classic"... Look for anything that was polarizing, iconic, revolutionary, or just plain nifty and/or good looking in its day, to proudly and deservedly attain that status..

    Think about it... A 1957 Chevy Bel Air is a "classic"... When new, it was an entry-level passenger car a bus driver could afford.

    The only time that things don't achieve a venerable status, is when the nostalgia isn't there, when the memories are not fond. A cheap car that you were proud to be seen in turns classic, i.e. Ford Mustang... But a cheap car you were embarrassed to be seen in, i.e. AMC Rambler..., well, it ain't much of a classic at all...

    But there's an ass for every seat in the car collector world. There are guys out there who collect Pintos even...

    It's a wonderful hobby, for those who understand it, and don't believe it's all about having the most valuable collection or car...

    BOTTOM LINE, you're looking for superior design, and excellence in packaging for purpose, at any price-point... That's why a 1963 Ford Falcon Convertible can fetch the same money today as a 1967 912. And sometimes just an oddball history and being "unique" can gain collectible status and good value, like Edsel..

    The rare cars and the million-dollar cars are all kinda like solar flares, that shoot off of an enormous sun...



    Will be interesting to observe whether today's more tech-intensive cars will be viewed by today's esp tech/quant-oriented kids (who grew up in more tech-intensive, post-Net era) about as sentimentally as they then view a "collectible" smartphone/flat-panel TV/laptop, etc from when they were kids.....suspect tech/quant/perf-focused guys have different values than styling/nostalgia-focused....the usual engineering/finance vs liberal arts (or tech/finance vs sales/marketing/non-quant) divide.....

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Of the current 2007 US 911 model line , I would only pick the GT3RS - esp in the wilder green or orange colors as a possible future collectible.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    997GT2 said:
    The 997 GT3 RS will be a future classic like the 993 RS?

    Or it will lost the value like the 996 when the next RS come out?

    Any comments about that?



    Other than Porsche curtailing production on the car why would it be a classic? Seriously I don't understand the reason for the question.

    Its performance is not better than the 996GT3RS and barely better than the 997GT3. Its appearance is almost the same as all other Porsche's except for a large whale tail. It does have some unusal colors but they can be had on all Porsches. So why should it be a classic.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    A future classic? God only knows. A desirable car in the future? Probably. Does the car break any new ground? Or should it be looked at a continuation on a theme. The same can be said for Ferrari. The 246 Dino, a classic, in part because it broke new ground. Will the 360 be viewed as a classic or the continuation of a theme? Only time will tell.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    nberry said:Other than Porsche curtailing production on the car why would it be a classic? Seriously I don't understand the reason for the question.



    The 997RS is strictly limited production run (circa 1000 units worldwide). There are many detail changes on the car from the regular 997GT3. I'm sure you knew that already and being an educated man it's strange that you "seriously don't understand" the question.

    Every RS model Porsche has ever made is a future classic for the same reasons. In the UK and Europe it's not uncommon to see 964RS for sale at $100K+. 993RS are $120k+. Both are heading north fast.

    996RS prices have stabilised above $120k. The car was again built in very limited numbers and many have been crashed. Prospects for future residual values are excellent.

    RS Porsche's are a true connoisseur's choice

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Other than Porsche curtailing production on the car why would it be a classic? Seriously I don't understand the reason for the question.

    Its performance is not better than the 996GT3RS and barely better than the 997GT3. Its appearance is almost the same as all other Porsche's except for a large whale tail. It does have some unusal colors but they can be had on all Porsches. So why should it be a classic.




    Just remove all references to 996 & 997 GT3's in the above statement, and replace with references to Type 356's and Speedsters, or 300SL's, or Thunderbirds, or Eldorados (I could truly go on long enough to make you pass-out onto your keyboard), and then imagine how many people said those words 50 years ago...

    Regarding another previous post, you make a good point, how much "nostalgia" will these computer-controlled wiring-riddled hyper-sensitive things carry into the future??

    I believe that there will still be a market, and an enthusiast base, for many of the cars we're driving today... We're nearing the apex of a second performance "golden age", and 20-30 years from now, due to continuously rising government-imposed mandates, and global resource tensions, and new technologies that take over more and more of the car's dynamics, many gear-heads-at-heart may be looking back at the 1990-2015 era as "the good old years"...

    The only hitch is that due to the extreme amount of unique sensors and electronics and high-tolerance-complex mechanicals, all of it too expensive to reproduce in the aftermarket at a profit, restoration of these vehicles will be cost-prohibitive compared to older, simpler, more basic cars from the mid-70's-back...

    As-such, the collectibles that we know today will continue to be circulated, and continue to appreciate, and continue to be restored and re-restored and re-re-restored until they become irrelevent or illegal/unviable to drive. But since Hollywood has embraced so many of these cars, and our youth do indeed seem to be intrigued by the muscle-car era and 50's-60's luxo-barges, and the car collecting hobby is now prime-time TV that all ages watch, it's going to be a long long time before all of the enthusiasts for that stuff have died-off.

    But back to current stuff, the future I believe will have a place for them, but the valuable stuff will be the pristine, low-mile, properly stored and maintained, virgin "survivors"... The cars that are still near-perfect due to their doting owners, and need little-to-zero restoration. Restoring cars of today, in the future, will be a bitch... Hell, just restoring William Clay Ford Sr's Detroit-Lions-Blue 1980 Continental Mark VI was a monkey-puzzle under the hood, and sourcing a replacement for the faulty original PCM was like searching for the fountain of youth..

    Don't forget guys, it's not how rare the car is TODAY necessarily, it's how rare the car will be in the future, after 99% of them are crushed and recycled...

    Extreme-high-end-exotics tend to live forever... They don't get crushed, scrapped, or even driven that much for that matter... Only extreme wrecks or disasters claim the elite cars, and even then, the number plates and driveline and titles seem to always rise up from the ashes..

    But more common stuff? Just a plain ole' basic 997?? 40 years from now, those will be almost as rare as damn 997 GT3RS's will be.

    Often times, when I go to a concours or an AACA national, the most unique car on the field was not that unique when new, but almost all of them perished due to a lengthy period of indifference... And then, as time marches on, the few that survive and then are restored are held-up as fond memories of an extinct breed, and the values are high. And then, further down the line, is a line-up of a dozen flippin Duesenbergs, that will never die, just continue to be restored over and over again.

    (Sorry so long, you guys are pitching right in my wheelhouse!! )

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    ScottL said:
    Every RS model Porsche has ever made is a future classic for the same reasons. In the UK and Europe it's not uncommon to see 964RS for sale at $100K+. 993RS are $120k+.




    Not to talk about the '73 RS
    http://home.mobile.de/cgi-bin/da.pl?bere...1264351001&

    Of course the market for classic cars is a bit like the stock market (hard to predict). For example right now Porsches (including the "standard" 911) and MB classics are highly asked for in Germany, whereas 20 or 30 years ago every collector seemed to be keen on British classics.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    There are alot of dynamics that play into what makes something collectible or valuable in the future... But it all winds up being a game of supply and demand... And it's the "demand" side that is commonly misunderstood...

    Most of the world's population isn't wealthy, doesn't grow up in elite areas where ultra-low-production-ultra-expensive exotics roam the streets.

    So as kids grow up eyeballing cars that light their fire, they see the exotics in magazines and dream, but they really never imagine being able to own it, and in a way, most middle class and lower class kids dismiss them as such... It's the cars they saw on the STREET, the cars that their neighbors bought that made their hearts flip every time they rode their bike by the driveway, the cars that they had true and reasonable aspirations to someday own, that burned a place in their being...

    Now here's where the RATIO is important... You take the majority of the population that for whatever their personal tastes and reasons had a youthful love-affair with a certain car or class of cars, and that huge population ages... Conversely, those same cars (by virtue of being cheaper, more common and more blue-collar) have an enormous attrition rate during their first 10 years when they're too young to be recognized as worth saving. So, that enormous population of low-middle class hangs in there, they're all still around basically 30 years later, and alot of them have been successful in life. But the cars they loved in their youth are all but gone, RELATIVELY speaking... What you've got here is an extremely HIGH ratio of demand to supply, and that's what kicks the prices skyward...

    Now, of course, the exotics are still expensive to buy once they hit "antique" and collectible status. But from a relative standpoint, proportionately comparing their value today to what they cost new, adjusting for inflation, they have in many cases appreciated in value LESS than the far more common muscle cars that only cost $3K-5K brand-new...

    For instance, which car would you consider to be more "classic" and the more successful "collectible" from a money standpoint, the 1968-1973 Ferrari Daytona Coupe, or the 1969-1970 Ford Boss 429 Mustang???

    Both cars were produced in almost EXACTLY the same numbers, just over 1,300 copies.

    The Boss sold for $3826 brand new

    The Daytona just shy of $20K

    Today top dollar on the Ferrari is $250-$300K

    Today top dollar on the Boss 429 is twice the Ferrari


    My point isn't that one car is better than the other (that would be silly....), it's that the car that was more likely to be seen in your own home-town, the car that you lusted after at the local Ford dealer while your poor hard-working pop was buying a new cheap wagon, the car that always seemed just out of your family's reach, like a steak dangling just beyond the stretch of a dog's tether.... same rarity, but an exponentially larger demand-base, has an appreciation factor that blows the Ferrari out of the water completely...

    Such is the way it goes... A Duesenberg seems damn expensive at $1 million or more... But when you consider what they cost brand-new, they haven't faired all that well at all.....

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    It's the cars they saw on the STREET, the cars that their neighbors bought that made their hearts flip every time they rode their bike by the driveway, the cars that they had true and reasonable aspirations to someday own, that burned a place in their being...




    I would describe this buyer's group as enthusiasts, who buy the classics as "keepers" just because they've fallen in love with them.

    As per your experience: what is the share of enthusiasts compared to speculators (flipping the classics á la stock trading - buy low, sell high - once the opportunity is there) ?

    Anyway, thanks for your post - interesting lecture

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    All 997s will become classics if the EU has their way and makes all Porsche's become hybrids (and Ferrari/Lambo go out of business) by 2012!!

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    ScottL said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:Other than Porsche curtailing production on the car why would it be a classic? Seriously I don't understand the reason for the question.



    The 997RS is strictly limited production run (circa 1000 units worldwide). There are many detail changes on the car from the regular 997GT3. I'm sure you knew that already and being an educated man it's strange that you "seriously don't understand" the question.

    Every RS model Porsche has ever made is a future classic for the same reasons. In the UK and Europe it's not uncommon to see 964RS for sale at $100K+. 993RS are $120k+. Both are heading north fast.

    996RS prices have stabilised above $120k. The car was again built in very limited numbers and many have been crashed. Prospects for future residual values are excellent.

    RS Porsche's are a true connoisseur's choice



    I could use your arguments for every limited production Porsche ever made. The 996 special edition?

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    The enthusiasts BY FAR outnumber the speculators... However, it's the speculators that can at time steer and warp the market, because they account for so many of the sales, flipping cars rapidly... Most enthusiasts spend years restoring just one car, and then may keep it for decades, or sell it off after a short time to start on another project... But the turnover is far slower, therefore they don't seem as prominent as the speculators and dealers. But, since I sell restoration parts, I can tell you for certain that the every-day-joe-do-it-yourselfer is the 800-pound Gorilla in the hobby. The speculators are the 5-pound rats, and as-such, they're prolific as hell...

    And yep, even the 996 Collector's Edition will be a nifty thing to see 40 years from now. Will any of these Porsche's win the race against inflation? Who knows...

    But to narrow your view of "collectible" to only a small handful of cars that were virtually unobtainable to most, is to position yourself squarely on Pluto, looking back in toward the sun where all of the other collectors are still hanging out on Earth....

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    nberry said:I could use your arguments for every limited production Porsche ever made. The 996 special edition?



    OK for extra bonus points Nick can you tell me how many 996RS's were made?

    Let me give you a clue - it's less than 500

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Its over 500.
    There were 632 996GT3RS's made.

    R

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    I heard 119 RHD and 373 LHD but I stand corrected.

    Either way certain to be a future classic.


    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    ScottL said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:I could use your arguments for every limited production Porsche ever made. The 996 special edition?



    OK for extra bonus points Nick can you tell me how many 996RS's were made?

    Let me give you a clue - it's less than 500



    Hey Scott I just noticed you ordered a 997GT3RS. I now understand your position.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    In reading throught the post's we are all assuming that the social trends now in place will continue. True america's love affair for the car will, but how we view the automobile has changed. In the 1950's the automobile was at its peak of desirability. It represented freedom and economic progress after two decades of depression and war. Now there are many who view the automobile as a utility item. Will they view the cars of their youth with longing? Remember that in the 1950's Duesenberg was just another old car.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    nberry said:Hey Scott I just noticed you ordered a 997GT3RS. I now understand your position.



    I wish I had the garage space to keep both. I loved my 996RS. It's only been gone a week and already I miss it.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    connoisseur said:
    In reading throught the post's we are all assuming that the social trends now in place will continue. True america's love affair for the car will, but how we view the automobile has changed. In the 1950's the automobile was at its peak of desirability. It represented freedom and economic progress after two decades of depression and war. Now there are many who view the automobile as a utility item. Will they view the cars of their youth with longing? Remember that in the 1950's Duesenberg was just another old car.



    Point taken, but if you ask anyone from that era....

    1. They never in their wildest dreams thought that any 50's iron would ever be so valuable or collectible..

    2. When you look at production numbers, the "good stuff", i.e. top-line top-engined convertibles and 2-door hard-tops, power-pack & fuelie Bel-Airs, Bonnevilles, Skylarks, top-line Fairlanes, retractables, 300's, Carribeans, Premiers, Eldos etc.. were produced and purchased in relatively SMALL numbers compared to the more "basic transportation" 4-door base-model Chevs and Fords and Plymouths..

    The mood and the sentiment you state for the era was indeed there... But the old habits of "conservatism" still reflected most of the car buying, and most of what you saw on the road were bland utility items.

    Indeed, the styles were diverse and extremely modern for the time, and some were flamboyant.

    But while people were loving the cars, and coming out of their shells, and truly embracing the optimism you spoke of, they still hadn't put two and two together regarding cars being collectible and valuable in the future... So in that respect also, it was indeed a utility item to them. A fashionable one, one that made a statement about themselves, one that afforded personality and status, but just like clothes, they were worn until they were worn-out, and then traded in for a newer more up-scale model as folks worked their way up the food chain..

    You're right, I also don't envision the future for todays cars as being nearly as "nostalgic" as back then... That's why I strongly feel that the cars from the 50's, 60's and 70's will continue to be recycled and recycled, due to their nostalgia, individual and outrageous styling/personality, and their ease/simplicity to work on and refurbish...

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    sorry my number should be 682, according to EVO.
    Also it's important to note that production numbers aren't a determining factor in whether a car will be a classic or not. According to EVO 1580 examples of the 73 911RS were made - which is apporxiamtely how many 997 RS's will be built. And Porsche only produced 111 1974 911RS3.0 and you don't hear anyone clamboring for one of those.

    Further, the 73RS while being a fantastic car and being lighter than the 997RS had only 219hp/ton compared to the 997's 302hp/ton - something else to consider.

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    "Rare" is not directly proportional to "valuable" or "collectible"... In other words, the car has to carry the water to a certain extent...

    Can't tell you how many times I cringe when I overhear stuff at car shows like, "Yep, it's rare, one of only 213 '64 SS Impalas built with the straight-six and 2-speed powerglide on the column...., and of those, mine is the only [beep]-green with cow-patty interior from the factory... I figure she'll go high at Barrett...."

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    This topic has struck a chord with you. You know your "stuff".

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    ScottL said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:Hey Scott I just noticed you ordered a 997GT3RS. I now understand your position.



    I wish I had the garage space to keep both. I loved my 996RS. It's only been gone a week and already I miss it.



    How did you use the RS? Primarily track, daily use, both?

    Re: 997 RS: The future classic?

    Quote:
    RR4 said:
    And Porsche only produced 111 1974 911RS3.0 and you don't hear anyone clamboring for one of those.


    Their values have skyrocketed - worth hundreds of thousands of dollars...

     
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