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    Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

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    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    See earlier articles on a revised 997 turbo, including some prototype pictures. You will notice the same LED rearlights as in upcoming facelifted Carreras. Uncertain if the Facelift come with the revised Carrera in spring 2008 or some time later (6-12 months).

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    With an April '08 allocation this makes me wonder if I should slide it a few months to get a 2009.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Yes, you might want to check out this link:

    http://www.carmagazine.co.uk/secret_new_car.php?sid=1061&page=1

    I'm sure we won't see a facelift Turbo for at least another calendar year.

    My views on what the face-lift TT may bring...

    Direct Injection
    I think the difference with DI will be too small to notice myself. Yes, 4% extra power would be nice, but will you actually feel that? Plus the 8-15% more fuel economy would be nice too, but frankly that won't make a large dent in my fuel bill and won't exactly save the planet either (not that I buy into 'CO2 = global warming' political bandwagon anyway). I also wouldn't be surprised if Porsche saved DI for the 998. There are a lot of rumours I have read that say the Turbo's engine won't be updated until 998 model.

    The re-styling
    For me, Porsche are restyling each component of the car separately these days without looking at the car as a whole. The Turbo and GT2 in particular look like they have been designed by 20 different guys who only come together with their designs at the assembly line. The face-lifted spy-shots look like Porsche has taken this to a whole new level.

    LED rear lights
    I personally don't see the huge need for LED rear lights myself. OK so they give the person behind you more warning when you brake. But if you break heavily in a Turbo at 70+mph then the person behind you better be a LONG way back anyway for you not to out-break them!

    DSG gear-box
    I am still not convinced Porsche has addressed the reported issue with a DSG box handling all that power. I think 1st generation in a Turbo is going to be flaky at best. Plus I love changing gears with a manual so DSG wouldn't interest me anyway.

    Sports Exhaust
    PSE as far as I know is not on the agenda for the 997 Turbo, so you are better off going after an after-market exhaust

    Heads up display
    This may actually be quite useful to Turbo owners who find themselves having to look more at the road than at the rev counter/speedo. I have hit the rev limiter myself every time I have driven a manual Turbo thus far...

    By the time 2009 comes along, you will have only 3 years to wait until the 998 Turbo comes out and surely there will be a bigger technology leap here than going from 997 to 997.5.

    So all in all, I would rather spend my money on a Ruf or Cargraphic exhaust + ECU for a 997 Turbo I can get my hands on ASAP.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    The car magazine article makes little sense regarding the intake:

    Quote:
    Porsche will also tweak the VTG (Variable Turbine Geometry) system. And finally there's a strong possibility that the Turbo will inherit the GT2's 'expansion intake manifold'. Longer intake pipes mean cooler air enters the engine. The air is less dense but by upping the boost pressure the volume of air entering the engine remains the same. However, lower temperatures bring more efficient combustion. So it's cleaner and more powerful - the holy grail of sports car makers at present.



    - colder air is MORE dense, not LESS dense
    - lower temps do not bring more efficient combustion, it just prevents pre-ignition and maintains charge density

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    This is a well written and reasoned post, thank you.

    I am a great supporter of Porsche, but I do find myself a bit confused at the array of changes as each model evolves. Also, I do long for a real change in the design of the 911 series, one that is more daring than the gradual evolutionary change we have come to expect. Most particularly, I think the true high-end cars like the TT and GT2 need a more cohesive and exceptional design, not just an add-on approach to the basic Carrera. I believe high end buyers would pay the extra dollars to have their car look truly different, not just a Carrera with wider rims, vents, etc. I have not been able to shake my initial disappointment with the 997TT design when I saw it in Geneva at its launch. It looked pieced together, more like a modified 997 than a cohesive, exciting design.

    In short, the TT and GT2 are fabulously engineered and performing cars that deserve a design to match.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    I think that this new 997TT will be worth the wait. More power, more fuel efficient, and the possibility of the PDK.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:Direct Injection
    I think the difference with DI will be too small to notice myself. Yes, 4% extra power would be nice, but will you actually feel that?


    DI allows a higher compression ratio, so the motor will be much more responsive off-boost - should be significantly less turbo lag...

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Damn I should have waited another year and now I only have 480 ponies

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    DI is a fine addition, but ECU flashes exist for the non-DI car now, netting 550+hp

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    eclou said:
    The car magazine article makes little sense regarding the intake:

    Quote:
    Porsche will also tweak the VTG (Variable Turbine Geometry) system. And finally there's a strong possibility that the Turbo will inherit the GT2's 'expansion intake manifold'. Longer intake pipes mean cooler air enters the engine. The air is less dense but by upping the boost pressure the volume of air entering the engine remains the same. However, lower temperatures bring more efficient combustion. So it's cleaner and more powerful - the holy grail of sports car makers at present.



    - colder air is MORE dense, not LESS dense
    - lower temps do not bring more efficient combustion, it just prevents pre-ignition and maintains charge density



    Noop cooler air means less dense

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    edz61 said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    The car magazine article makes little sense regarding the intake:

    Quote:
    Porsche will also tweak the VTG (Variable Turbine Geometry) system. And finally there's a strong possibility that the Turbo will inherit the GT2's 'expansion intake manifold'. Longer intake pipes mean cooler air enters the engine. The air is less dense but by upping the boost pressure the volume of air entering the engine remains the same. However, lower temperatures bring more efficient combustion. So it's cleaner and more powerful - the holy grail of sports car makers at present.



    - colder air is MORE dense, not LESS dense
    - lower temps do not bring more efficient combustion, it just prevents pre-ignition and maintains charge density



    Noop cooler air means less dense



    You're incorrect. Why does hotter air lift and colder air sinks to the ground?

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Ugh! Here we go again.

    480 vs. 500+ hp? There's zero possibility of telling the difference on public roads without doing something stupid and dangerous.

    LEDs, a first generation PDK, and etc.? Not enough to get me to wait.

    Cheap, change-for-change's-sake facelift? Speaks for itself.

    If you're in the market for a Turbo now, there's no gripping reasons to wait more than several months for one, IMHO.

    In the market a year from now? No problem: don't even consider that "waiting." In 12 months you could have a whole 'nother universe of unforseen issues in your life.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Makes sense that would wait for early 09 as a MY10 for the introduction of the restyled TT, with the TT cab and GT2 MKII a year later.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    I see a couple of problems with waiting:
    1. By 2009/2010 or so, there will be talk of 998. It would be tough for me to spend 140k on a car when there is thought of a major redesign.
    2. For US customers, worsening performance of dollar vs. Euro might be a problem. Porsche takes steps to protect itself against currency fluctuation, but this protection is not unlimited. I think the possibility is there of a higher than usual 1-2% annual price increase.

    The ideal time for buying a car IMHO is first few months of second year (recent talk of Porsche's unannounced slight modification to 2008 997 Turbo's supports this move). Meaning YMMV, but: THE SWEET SPOT IS *EXACTLY* NOW!!


    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    I see a couple of problems with waiting:
    1. By 2009/2010 or so, there will be talk of 998. It would be tough for me to spend 140k on a car when there is thought of a major redesign.
    2. For US customers, worsening performance of dollar vs. Euro might be a problem. Porsche takes steps to protect itself against currency fluctuation, but this protection is not unlimited. I think the possibility is there of a higher than usual 1-2% annual price increase.

    The ideal time for buying a car IMHO is first few months of second year (recent talk of Porsche's unannounced slight modification to 2008 997 Turbo's supports this move). Meaning YMMV, but: THE SWEET SPOT IS *EXACTLY* NOW!!






    Fully agree, most improvements made between major design changes are not usually worth waiting for.
    I waited 10 months for my early TT and would do it again for the 998TT, but would not wait at all right now for minor changes.
    The biggest problem of waiting for small changes is that everyone else is ALREADY enjoying their current car and the waiters are not

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    cannga said:
    recent talk of Porsche's unannounced slight modification to 2008 997 Turbo's supports this move




    Did I miss that thread? I know the exhaust sound has been unofficially improved for MY08, what other rumours have there been? PTM improvements perhaps?

    I have also been told that the PCM will be getting a fix soon for poor telephone module conversations.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    AAHTT said:
    The biggest problem of waiting for small changes is that everyone else is ALREADY enjoying their current car and the waiters are not



    It depends what you drive while waiting, so many nice cars out there...

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Alex,
    It's that other highly informative & entertaining thread where everyone's going after everyone else's throat arguing about "ring" times. Buried among the arguments is some valuable info, particularly from KresoF1.

    >>>>>
    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat...e=0&fpart=5

    All 997 Turbo's from MY08 feature little bit different PASM and PTM setup(software). Second 997 Turbo that Horst tried on Nordschleife features these small changes... Porsche learned a lot from costumer experience belive me... BTW, these changes are really small but, they are good enough for better track times on both Hockenheim and Nordschleife...

    >>>>>
    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Quote:
    cannga said:
    recent talk of Porsche's unannounced slight modification to 2008 997 Turbo's supports this move




    Did I miss that thread? I know the exhaust sound has been unofficially improved for MY08, what other rumours have there been? PTM improvements perhaps?

    I have also been told that the PCM will be getting a fix soon for poor telephone module conversations.


    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    edz61 said:
    Quote:
    eclou said:
    The car magazine article makes little sense regarding the intake:

    Quote:
    Porsche will also tweak the VTG (Variable Turbine Geometry) system. And finally there's a strong possibility that the Turbo will inherit the GT2's 'expansion intake manifold'. Longer intake pipes mean cooler air enters the engine. The air is less dense but by upping the boost pressure the volume of air entering the engine remains the same. However, lower temperatures bring more efficient combustion. So it's cleaner and more powerful - the holy grail of sports car makers at present.



    - colder air is MORE dense, not LESS dense
    - lower temps do not bring more efficient combustion, it just prevents pre-ignition and maintains charge density



    Noop cooler air means less dense



    You're incorrect. Why does hotter air lift and colder air sinks to the ground?



    Yes,

    Colder air is more dense than warmer air. If one heats up air (mostly nitrogen and oxygen), it expands (becomes less dense). Unfortunately, CAR Mag. journalists aren't scientists. In a turbocharged engine in a traditional intake manifold setup, air/exhaust gases are recycled into the turbochargers and then COMPRESSED from atmospheric pressures to higher levels, and it is the compression of the gas that heats it up-and why intercoolers and other thermal controls are needed, so the idea behind expanding the gases in the intake is to cool them (which air does when it expands) before compression again.

    This is akin to in meteorology when a high pressure cycles air which descends as it moves away from the center of the high towards the ground, compressing it and causing heating, so the expansion intake manifold is designed to counteract this effect by decompressing and cooling it before recompression.

    Or stated another way, colder air is more dense than warmer air, but a given QUANTITY of air (say, Avogadro's number of oxygen and nitrogen molecules in a 20:80 ratio) becomes cooler as it decompresses (and warmer as it compresses). In the GT2 setup, apparently Porsche believes expanding the exhaust gases so they are cooled BEFORE ignition will be more efficient in terms of fuel consumption. But they end of increasing max. boost pressure in the turbochargers (which means a constant air QUANTITY enters the cylinders) so power output isn't compromised.

    Make sense?

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    The thing about cooler and denser air is that it contains more oxygen to burn with more gas and so produce more power per stroke.

    Simple.


    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Ugh! Here we go again.

    480 vs. 500+ hp? There's zero possibility of telling the difference on public roads without doing something stupid and dangerous.





    Exactly, also the ones that want to wait for supposedly the extra 20hp and DI will have to pay probably 10k to 15k more too.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    PSE is due in April '08 or thereabouts for the turbo.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Ugh! Here we go again.

    480 vs. 500+ hp? There's zero possibility of telling the difference on public roads without doing something stupid and dangerous.





    Exactly, also the ones that want to wait for supposedly the extra 20hp and DI will have to pay probably 10k to 15k more too.



    Ron, the article states a 10% increase in power. Not a 20hp increase. Similarly a 10% increase in fuel economy.

    But you're right. Probably, it will cost us, since nothing comes free from Porsche.

    However, I doubt if we get a 10% hp increase as that will kill GT2 sales.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    Eric (Plug Guy) said:
    PSE is due in April '08 or thereabouts for the turbo.



    I started that rumour, and I also finished it too.

    No PSE.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Ugh! Here we go again.

    480 vs. 500+ hp? There's zero possibility of telling the difference on public roads without doing something stupid and dangerous.





    Exactly, also the ones that want to wait for supposedly the extra 20hp and DI will have to pay probably 10k to 15k more too.



    Ron, the article states a 10% increase in power. Not a 20hp increase. Similarly a 10% increase in fuel economy.

    But you're right. Probably, it will cost us, since nothing comes free from Porsche.

    However, I doubt if we get a 10% hp increase as that will kill GT2 sales.



    Across the Cayenne range the average DI power increase was 4%. That would take the Turbo to pretty much exactly 500bhp.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Ugh! Here we go again.

    480 vs. 500+ hp? There's zero possibility of telling the difference on public roads without doing something stupid and dangerous.





    Exactly, also the ones that want to wait for supposedly the extra 20hp and DI will have to pay probably 10k to 15k more too.



    If we assume that the facelift car will be a MY10, and also assume Porsche puts the Turbo price up 2.3% each year like they did for MY08...

    Then yes, the base price will indeed be a lot more expensive (about Pounds4.5k here in the UK).

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    Quote:
    MMD said:
    Ugh! Here we go again.

    480 vs. 500+ hp? There's zero possibility of telling the difference on public roads without doing something stupid and dangerous.





    Exactly, also the ones that want to wait for supposedly the extra 20hp and DI will have to pay probably 10k to 15k more too.



    If we assume that the facelift car will be a MY10, and also assume Porsche puts the Turbo price up 2.3% each year like they did for MY08...

    Then yes, the base price will indeed be a lot more expensive (about Pounds4.5k here in the UK).



    Although saying that Canada have just cut it's prices by 10% on all Porsches...

    http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20070926.RPORSCHE26/TPStory/Business

    So perhaps a MY10 TT will actually be cheaper than it is now if other countries follow suit

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    Quote:
    Alex (UK) said:
    Quote:
    Eric (Plug Guy) said:
    PSE is due in April '08 or thereabouts for the turbo.



    I started that rumour, and I also finished it too.

    No PSE.



    So what ended the rumour?

    1) there is development of the PSE for the 997TT but the availabiilty date is now uncertain

    2) they've cancelled development of the PSE after starting it.

    3) there was never any development of the PSE to begin with.

    Just curious.

    Re: Updated 997tt with 500hp ?

    I heard recently to expect it, not from these boards, but elsewhere. I can only hope....

     
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