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    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Agree that it is not a good time to buy, but I wanted to spec my car and pick it up in Leipzig for some European fun before my family moves back to the U.S.  I am sure I could have done better by buying one off the lot when I returned, but like I said in my original post--I am old and stupid...

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Enzo911:

    Spain prices...

    Cayenne GTS (405hp) 87.300€

    Cayenne S (385hp) 75.900€

    X5 48i  (355hp) 79.400€

    BMW 750i (407 hp) 104.200€

    BMW 740i L6 (326hp) 86.400€

    ML500 (388hp) 80.500€

    S Class 500 (388 hp)  107.600€

    Q7 4.2 V8 FSI (350hp) 76.500€

     Audi A8 4.2 V8 FSI (350hp) 92.100€

    Maserati Quattroporte 126.000€

     

    Panamera S NEVER under 90.000€

    95.000€ for Spain should be a good price, that means 90k€ inc.tax in Germany


            WOW, those prices are frighteningly simaliar to Canadian numbers, if one switches the Euro sign to CAD$ dollars, it's almost the list prices here, some maybe off by about 5-10%%.

    Factoring the exchange rate, cars are like 40% more expensive in Europe than in Canada, and we Canadians already paid a premium over the US customers, something like 20%-30%.

    I guess the pricing on Panamera will be around Cayenne level +5% is not without merits, since that's what I heard here in Canada and same thing was heard in the UK.

    Even at that price, Panamera is still a niche car, some people WILL NEED that 5th seat in the middle and because of that, they will pass up on the Panamera.


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    There really isn't ANY direct competitor to the Panamera other than the MB CLS, the other 4 door 4 seat driver's car.

    Consider the pricing here in Canada,

    CLS550 @ 93k, Panamera 4S @ around 100k+ options = around 120k

    CLS63 @128k, Panamera Turbo @ around 120k+ options = around $140k

    If we includes the 5 seater performance driver's cars like M5, S6 and even Maserati Quattroporte

    M5 @ 106k

    S6 @100k

    Quattroporte @ 108k

     

    In Canada here at least, the Cayenne + 5% pricing is already at a premium over the competitors.

    Somehow I don't think Porsche is gunning for the S-class, 7, A8 with the Panamera. For one Panamera doesn't have enough gadget to be consider in the same league, #2, those big limos just don't have the handling needed to be a driver's sedan. #3, Panamera is missing that 5th seat, and it's low rear roof means the owners can't be chauffeur around, same thing like the CLS but unlike the big sedans.

     

     


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Whoopsy:

    I guess the pricing on Panamera will be around Cayenne level +5% is not without merits, since that's what I heard here in Canada and same thing was heard in the UK.

    Even at that price, Panamera is still a niche car, some people WILL NEED that 5th seat in the middle and because of that, they will pass up on the Panamera.

    Better take +10% in consideration. Minimum.

            


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

     

    why would anyone want a Panamera(or Cayenne) any way?


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    hugo:

    why would anyone want a Panamera(or Cayenne) any way?

    I don't own a Cayenne and I do not intend to buy a Panamera, but you can ask the many thousand Cayenne owners in the variety of diverse markets it has been selling well.



    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    reginos:
    hugo:

     

    why would anyone want a Panamera(or Cayenne) any way?

    I don't own a Cayenne and I do not intend to buy a Panamera, but you can ask the many thousand Cayenne owners in the variety of diverse markets it has been selling well.



    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

            Smiley good for you,btw,the answer is...?


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    hugo:
    reginos:
    hugo:

    why would anyone want a Panamera(or Cayenne) any way?

    I don't own a Cayenne and I do not intend to buy a Panamera, but you can ask the many thousand Cayenne owners in the variety of diverse markets it has been selling well.



    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Smiley good for you,btw,the answer is...?

    You could do a worldwide survey amongst the many owners and you could find the answer to your rhetorical question.

    I wouldn't be surprised if RUF have already started looking into the Panamera as a basis for a future car.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    cayenne is a great car and as i needed a 'practical' car next to my sports cars or 2 seaters it was the logical choice.

    actually since there is a cayenne i was asking myself what's the need for an s-class or 7 series....Smiley

    i guess the answer is: to each his own !


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    hugo:

     

    why would anyone want a Panamera(or Cayenne) any way?

    Just look outside and you'll have your answer. SmileySmiley


            


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    intouch1:

    cayenne is a great car and as i needed a 'practical' car next to my sports cars or 2 seaters it was the logical choice.

    actually since there is a cayenne i was asking myself what's the need for an s-class or 7 series....Smiley

    i guess the answer is: to each his own !


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    I fully agree. The Cayenne really is a multi-purpose car and I guess one of the reasons for the introduction of the Panamera was actually the bad press/publicity the Cayenne received over the past 12-18 months, not necessarily just the need for a new model.

    Of course Porsche started Panamera development almost five years ago but I really think that the perception of the Cayenne in the public accelerated things with the Panamera. I just wish the Panamera would be smaller, it is huge and I doubt that it will receive a much better press/publicity after its introduction, simply because people already have the perception that small cars are environmentally friendly and large aren't.

    Again I have to take the new 7 series as an example: the car is huge too but the perception is quite different when you stand next to it. The design doesn't slap you into your face "look at me", some people may call this boring, I call this a very intelligent and defensive design, something very welcomed nowadays when money is tight and people get fired.

    Personally, I would very likely rather go for a Cayenne Turbo S than a Panamera Turbo. Both should be in the same price range. Of course the Panamera Turbo is faster, accelerates faster and handles better but thats not the point. The Cayenne is not the public's love child but people already got used to it and as long as the fuel prices stay low, people don't care too much about the Cayenne. With the Panamera, things could be different. The Panamera shouts out loud "here I come" and unfortunately the design isn't what I call visually attractive. So I'm afraid I will hear the same comments from people like I heard about the Cayenne, like "p...enlargement"/etc. .

    I really try to like the Panamera but as much as I like the Cayenne, I can't get used to the Panamera. The rear is hideous (and will surely be changed with the facelift), the car itself seems to be huge and the prices will be beyond good and evil. Sorry, Porsche but this is not the Panamera I expected, even if I bet there will be enough people who buy this thing for various reasons. Not sure about 20000 units per year though. 


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    RC - I really was looking forward for the Panamera. Would have been the ideal replacement of my BMW. 

    But as you say, the look is just to much awkward. Further on, the car is just to hughe, doesnt look handy at all. Size is the reason why I have a 5series and not an 7 BMW. I like the daily car comfortable but on the same time handy enough to get a bit sporty feeling and not bothered when looking for a car parking.

    Agree - this is not what I was hoping to see from Porsche. The Panamera is more an successor to an R-Class as to any other segment!



    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

     

    IMO there are horses for causes,meaning why have SUV that is close to useless off road but accelerates hard or a big 4 door sedan posing as a sports car which it's not...?

    i have found out after owning many of this compromise cars that a suv should be first of all an off road oriented car and not bother with speed as it's aerodynamics indicate,a sedan should be comfy/luxurious and easy to live with while the hard acceleration and handeling traits should be left to real 2 door/seaters compromising (not essentially) comfort roominess and ease of use.

    Just my 2 based  from an enthusiast point of view,obviously marketing strategies oriented sales figures contradicts the a/m...


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    i was actually seriously considering going for a panamera turbo and keep my X6 50i instead of the cayenne 2.

    now i am sure i will skip the panamera and the cayenne 2 and simply will go for a X6 M.....that is really how much i am enjoying my X6.

    i really find the high power suv's to be the best of both worlds.....


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Just got confirmation on pricing here in Canada, 4S will be CAD$120k and Turbo be CAD150k.

    Interesting note:my dealer has just under 20 people put down deposits for the car, most of them are for the V6 version, which is still another year away, IF it does materialize here in Canda.


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    If it true what they predict - 70% of buyers will be new Porsche clients, I will not wonder that the V6 is enough power. Thinking about all that S-Clsss / 7 drivers, they dont want to have a sportscar, they want to have an elegant, luxury cruiser.

    I'm sure that the V6 and in Europe even the V6 Diesel will be a best seller.

    So I dont wonder to hear that in BC people are favourising this engine.


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Lars997:

    If it true what they predict - 70% of buyers will be new Porsche clients,


            I am sure Porsche has done their marketing homework. However, I am having some problems in believing the 70% or 80% number... If I had to guess, Cayenne cannibalization should be much higher, many, many new Panamera customers coming from the Cayenne clientele... 


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Yep - you are for sure right. Many Cayenne owners will take the change to an Panamera. Especially as a new Cayenne is announced in the next 18 months. 

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Lars997:
    Yep - you are for sure right. Many Cayenne owners will take the change to an Panamera. Especially as a new Cayenne is announced in the next 18 months. 

    IMO people who got used to SUVs do not, generally go back to saloons. So exisitng Cayenne owners will not go to the Panamera in large numbers. However, a potential Cayenne buyer, who has no experience of an SUV, might choose the Panamera.

    I see more conquest sales from  BMWs Mercedes etc and even from 911s and turbos (people who got older or too fat to be comfortable in the sports cars). Remember that not everybody who drives a 911 is a racer or even a good driver, so the Panamera will fit them better.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    To be honest - I'm thinking about it, too. 

    As many times said before, I almost dont drive that 911 (last year 2200km!, year before 3500!). Reason, the 911 has not the space and comfort I need during the week. On weekends I often go for golfing, so again - no space. More or less, I really have to fight to finde a slot in my calendar driving the 911. Out of this reason I was thinking about an Panamera for long. Anyway - now as I know the look of the back I'm not sure anymore. Further on, the sunroof is like the size of a mobile-display. A targa style panorama sun-roof would have been great.

    So, this is kind a proof, that sportscars enthusiasts with an 911 thinking about a change! ;)


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    I suspect they made the sunroof small to make room for a Panamera Targa in the range. 
    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Market research are showing there is very little overlap between luxury SUV buyers and luxury sedan ones. The overlap is around 17%.

    Therefore Cayenne sales shouldn't suffer too much from the Panamera.

    It wouldn't make sense for Porsche to make cars that are overlapping ...


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Lars997:

    To be honest - I'm thinking about it, too. 

    As many times said before, I almost dont drive that 911 (last year 2200km!, year before 3500!). Reason, the 911 has not the space and comfort I need during the week. On weekends I often go for golfing, so again - no space. More or less, I really have to fight to finde a slot in my calendar driving the 911. Out of this reason I was thinking about an Panamera for long. Anyway - now as I know the look of the back I'm not sure anymore. Further on, the sunroof is like the size of a mobile-display. A targa style panorama sun-roof would have been great.

    So, this is kind a proof, that sportscars enthusiasts with an 911 thinking about a change! ;)


            The same with me.

    I think I will sell my 997 turbo and get somehting different. Maybe X6M maybe Panamera or maybe a M-version of the new BMW GT.


    --

    AM


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    EricAlain:

    Market research are showing there is very little overlap between luxury SUV buyers and luxury sedan ones. The overlap is around 17%.

    Therefore Cayenne sales shouldn't suffer too much from the Panamera.

    It wouldn't make sense for Porsche to make cars that are overlapping ...

    I still think that with the Cayenne, this could be different since public perception of the Cayenne is pretty bad, at least over here in Germany.

    Cayenne = most environmental hostile car on the planet...according to public opinion.

    What is worse: since the anti-SUV discussion started to get Europe in its tight grip too for a year or so, many people are actually not only argueing that the Cayenne is not environmental friendly enough but they also put Cayenne owners in a corner where you really don't want to be. Male Cayenne drivers get the "p.... enlargement" claim slapped into their faces and women usually have to listen to the "rich houswife" crap.

    I know, I know, I shouldn't care about publich perception too much but the problem is that especially intellectuals(most of our friends are) seem to have now some sort of "holy mission" to blame the Cayenne for almost everything bad happening on this planet.

    If you live in such a neighborhood and if your kids go to school/pre-school with kids of people who have this very idiotic behaviour, you can't ignore it completely.

    I love my Cayenne Turbo S and if I would get a good deal and if I could get rid of my 997 Turbo leasing, I would go for another Cayenne Turbo S (Facelift) in a second.

    Unfortunately all that negative media reporting about the Cayenne and the resulted public perception/opinion actually makes the Cayenne probably one of the worst cars regarding resale value, especially the Cayenne Turbo.

    In the past, you were able to sell used Cayenne Turbo to buyers from the former USSR states but even that has almost stopped now.

    The Panamera also has a huge problem on the german market: it is too big and too eye-catching for a company car. I really can't see people driving a BMW 7 series or Audi A8 driving a Panamera. Especially nowadays, when public perception of luxury and wealth is much higher, you can't "afford" driving around in such a car, especially if you have to deal with customers and/or employees each and every day.

    Apparently Porsche dealers view things a little bit different than I do but I'm afraid that Porsche sales drop hasn't seen the bottom yet...by far not. 

            


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    I am very surprised from this attitude in Europe's No.1 economy especially since 1 in 7 people make their living out of cars!

    Maybe the Cayenne diesel will change all that.

    Stick a diesel badge(I know even the diesel model doesn't have one) on the Turbo and all will be forgiven.  


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    you just have to look at PAG US prices to understand that the German market is  too expensive.

     

     


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    RC, your posts are frightening me a bit regarding public perception about the Cayenne.  With my family, I am picking up a new Turbo S in Leipzig in April, and plan to drive to Berlin, Munich, then to Switzerland for two weeks.  I am very excited, but now am getting worried I will have the car "keyed" or will be the brunt of insults and gestures.  What precautions should I take?  I have selected the rear emblem delete option, and plan to stay in nice hotels and resorts with private parking.  What else do you recommend?

    In the U.S., I have not experienced such a negative reaction, unless I drive aggressively and inconsiderately.  I am not buying the car to show off--I just like its combination of performance, looks and family room.

    And do you, as a 997 twin turbo driver, get the same negatice reaction?  I am really looking for advice here, thanks...


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    intouch1:

    you just have to look at PAG US prices to understand that the German market is  too expensive.

     

     


    --
    Speed has never killed anyone, suddenly becoming stationary... That's what gets you.

     

    Actually it's the US market that's been underpriced. US prices are the cheapest in the world, but Porsche can't raise prices to catch up with rest of the world because the US economy is close to death.

            


    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    Whoopsy:
    intouch1:

    you just have to look at PAG US prices to understand that the German market is  too expensive.

    Actually it's the US market that's been underpriced. US prices are the cheapest in the world, but Porsche can't raise prices to catch up with rest of the world because the US economy is close to death.

    Prices got distorted due to Euro's value rising from about  0.90 USD to 1.30 USD within a couple of years.
    The difference is compounded by the fact that German prices are quoted including 19% VAT, whereas US prices are always quoted net of  taxes.


    --
    fritz

    Re: Panamera - first hint regarding price tag

    19% VAT...I think Americans would overthrow the government in a second if they would charge 19% local tax. Smiley

    Talking about economic stimulus: abolishing 19% VAT for 6-12 months would have been the most effective economic stimulus for the whole economy. Unfortunately the state needs money and unfortunately politicians don't worry too much about their job and their pensions, so they couldn't care less.

    Most Europeans don't have a clue that for example in the US internet orders of merchandise is usually, with some exceptions(state-wise) FREE of local tax.

    I won't even start to mention prices of general goods, fuel, electronics, cars, houses and so on. Only food prices seem to be at par with Europe, depending on where you buy your stuff. More expensive than in Europe is probably eating out in a good restaurant, especially since you usually need to add aprox. 20% tip to the bill.

    To make it short:  Europe is going into a serious depression(!) and apparently politicians are too dumb to recognize it. "Funny": our new secretary of economy thinks that the economy will improve around this autumn, this guy should get a kick into his b.tt for talking such nonsense.

    Apparently the same financial geniuses are working at Porsche right now. Today I just heard that Porsche cut off dealer margin on the Panamera by 1% compared to other models. It is only a matter of time until Porsche dealers in Germany go down the drain. Some businesses already are in the hands of larger companies/investors, the family controlled Porsche dealer seems to be a thing of the past. Sad.


    --
    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


     
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