Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more .... - Page1

Mar 22, 2005 6:41:14 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13627, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

This study is not very complimentary regarding Porsche. It is now being compared with mass producers of automobiles. Thus it is no longer a specialized or boutique car manufacturer. Also, note the the truly elite brands were not included in the survey. It only confirms what have I believed Porsche. Porsche is now a mainstream (Ford, Saturn, etc.) car.

The final insult to Porsche is that despite MB horrible reputation in the industry for quality, exclusivity, mass production and being part of Chrysler, it still rated higher than Porsche. If I were Porsche management, I would be falling on my sword.

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Mar 22, 2005 7:01:35 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8630, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Quote:
nberry said:
This study is not very complimentary regarding Porsche. It is now being compared with mass producers of automobiles. Thus it is no longer a specialized or boutique car manufacturer. Also, note the the truly elite brands were not included in the survey. It only confirms what have I believed Porsche. Porsche is now a mainstream (Ford, Saturn, etc.) car.

The final insult to Porsche is that despite MB horrible reputation in the industry for quality, exclusivity, mass production and being part of Chrysler, it still rated higher than Porsche. If I were Porsche management, I would be falling on my sword.

Nick, you are too funny.

I doubt if anyone else who read that article would claim it was uncomplimentary to Porsche.

How often do you beat your wife? Should children who murder their parents be forgiven because they are now orphans? Please brush up on your fallacious arguments Herr Lawyer!

And...once again your red herring battle cry "and they are
now not a small or boutique manufacturer" Cry me a river on that one! Porsche's combined output barely matches Corvettes annual production, wich is pitifully small in the scheme of automaking. The only other smaller manufacturers are Morgan and Lotus. Do you yearn for Malaysian panel beaters with German name tags? Or is their not enough
wood content with fuzzy logic italian electrical bits attached to satiate your desires for "luxury."

I dare say you confuse price with exclusivity and profit with volume. 10,000 911's a year made certainly is small by anyones numbers. If you truly desire to see fewer of them on the roads, Im sure Porsche wouldnt mind you acquiring 90% of their production and hiding them at Hangar 13.

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Mar 22, 2005 7:28:41 PM

Carlos from Spain: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Spain. , Spain; Posts: 20820, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 9, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

You surprise me everyday Nick, your vision of things is so skewed by your obsession that it never seizes to amaze me what you can come up with after reading the same things the rest of us have.... from "most luxurious" rating in the survey you in turn deduct that Porsche is being regarded as Ford or Saturn...literally!

There will be a day when you will learn to realise that limited production does not mean good quality, or luxurious, or best performing, or most reliable, etc (actually limited production tends to work against it), but some people do get them confused

Lets use a Ferrari example so you can see. Ferrari can make 10,000/year ENZOs and it will still be an ENZO (a better cost/quality one, more reliable probably, etc at that), but if you buy it just because there is only 399 of them then why not just cover yourself in jewerly instead? and leave the ENZO for those that can enjoy it for what it can offer, intead of how many are around... two differnt things and Porsche is not into the jewelry market

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Mar 22, 2005 7:30:23 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Quote:
nberry said:
Porsche.... It is now being compared with mass producers of automobiles. Thus it is no longer a specialized or boutique car manufacturer. Also, note the the truly elite brands were not included in the survey. It only confirms what have I believed Porsche.

What card-carrying car nut would ever even think of Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Jag, etc., as an " elite " brand , Nick? You obviously don't " carry a valid card " . It's always been high end but NEVER in the Euro-royalty Rolls/Bentley/Ferrari league , nor pitched as such . Did you grow up on Mars ?
30+ years ago , my jr high English teacher drove a 911. My high school tennis coach drove an old 911. The only Ferrari ( Daytona Spider ) in town then was owned by a guy whose family owned half of the county I grew up in. Was the 914 an " elite " car to rival the Daytona or Boxer in the early 70s , LOL ! ?

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Mar 22, 2005 7:35:32 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13627, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Quote:
MKW said:
Quote:
nberry said:
Porsche.... It is now being compared with mass producers of automobiles. Thus it is no longer a specialized or boutique car manufacturer. Also, note the the truly elite brands were not included in the survey. It only confirms what have I believed Porsche.

What card-carrying car nut would ever even think of Porsche, MBZ, BMW, Jag, etc., as an " elite " brand , Nick? It's always been high end but NEVER in the Euro-royalty Rolls/Bentley/Ferrari league , nor pitched as such . Did you grow up on Mars ?
My jr high English teacher drove a 911. My high school tennis coach drove an old 911. The only Ferrari in town 35 years ago was owned by a guy whose family owned half of the county I grew up in. Was the 914 an " elite " car to rival the Daytona or Boxer in the early 70s , LOL ! ?

I appreciate you confirming what I have always stated.

Jim, Carlos, to be behind MB in a luxury survey is a feather in Porsches' cap?

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Mar 22, 2005 7:40:26 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: nberry

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Quote:
nberry said:
This study is not very complimentary regarding Porsche. It is now being compared with mass producers of automobiles. Thus it is no longer a specialized or boutique car manufacturer. Also, note the the truly elite brands were not included in the survey. It only confirms what have I believed Porsche. Porsche is now a mainstream (Ford, Saturn, etc.) car.

The final insult to Porsche is that despite MB horrible reputation in the industry for quality, exclusivity, mass production and being part of Chrysler, it still rated higher than Porsche. If I were Porsche management, I would be falling on my sword.

I think there is no arguing Porsche's biz strategy has been to extend the brand in an effort to be a more complete and larger car manufacturer. There is also no arguing that Porsche is putting a primary emphasis on these new (poseur) type customers. According to that survey and their sick profits, they appear to be succeeding in that goal. That said, the GT3, GT2 and Carrera GT (each considerably more exclusive than Ferraris offerings with the exception of the Enzo) products more than adequately serve the enthusiast which made Porsche's survival possible. As long as they continue offering enthusiast models, it's hard to bitch about their products. However, with the increase in production and models, their build quality (or at least R&D) has declined (withness the POS Cayenne). Oh how I wish they would adopt a Lexus service goal. I'd like nothing more than to be loyal to one brand and deal with the same service and sales guys/girls every time I have a need to. But, the Cayenne has soured me mightily on the entire Porsche service experience. Nothing is schittier than having a product that falls short and a service dept that claims problems are "normal" and can't therefore be addressed.

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Mar 22, 2005 7:41:26 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Quote:
nberry said:
Quote:
[b
I appreciate you confirming what I have always stated.

:

Nick - you are the ONLY person in the world who " STATES IT " as if to be the clarion to the world of the point that Porsche is not an " elite " brand . Everyone has known it from 40 -50 years ago , since it's SO OBVIOUS .

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Mar 22, 2005 7:44:00 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8630, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Mercedes?

Well how many chiefs of state and popes are hauled around in Porsches?

Yes, we are a hopeless cabal of Mercedes apocolytes!

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Mar 22, 2005 7:46:59 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Quote:
ben, lj said:
[Oh how I wish they would adopt a Lexus service goal.

Lexus had mamasan Toyota to bankroll their loss-leading foray into the higher end market in 1989 with the LS400.
I insist that Toyota just get it over with a BUY out the Porsche and Peich families now to stem the inevitable. Imagine combined Toyota/ Porsche racing efforts team in F1, rallying, NASCAR,LeMans, you name it etc.,. Toyota will rule the car making/buying world in 10 years , so might as well be on their team and suckle on their big "moola" nipples .

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Mar 22, 2005 7:49:07 PM

ben, lj: Expert; Loc:; Posts: 1373, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 6, 2003; Reply to: MKW

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Quote:
MKW said:
Quote:
ben, lj said:
[Oh how I wish they would adopt a Lexus service goal.

Lexus had mamasan Toyota to bankroll their loss-leading foray into the higher end market in 1989 with the LS400.
I insist that Toyota just get it over with a BUY out the Porsche and Peich families now to stem the inevitable. Imagine combined Toyota/ Porsche racing efforts team in F1, rallying, NASCAR,LeMans, you name it etc.,. Toyota will rule the car making/buying world in 10 years , so might as well be on their team .

Yep, I would be thrilled to get Porsche performance and feel with Toyota quality and service! That would be the finest car on the planet bar none for those remotely interested in performance. Incidentally, with it's status as most profitable (per car) company in the world, it's not too much to ask of them to work a bit harder on the R&D'g of crap like the Cayenne (chronic 911 and Boxster RMS leaks, etc) and bend over backwards in the service dept to fix shortcomings when they manifest. After the tremendous quality I experienced with my previous two 911s, I'd have bought just about anything made by Porsche. As it stands now, I own my last two currently until I am convinced their current quality and attitude have GREATLY changed. Ironically with the topic of this thread being what it is, the problems are in their more "luxury" oriented products while their more enthusiast based offerings are still top notch.

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Mar 22, 2005 7:54:11 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: ben, lj

Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

Perfect synergy. Toyota gives Porsche quality and R&D money. Porsche gives Toyota products that are genuinely sporty to get the AMG/M type buyers , not "fake sporty' like their just released GS.

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Mar 22, 2005 9:13:10 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8630, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: MKW

Oh not a feeling!.

Quote:
MKW said:
Perfect synergy. Toyota gives Porsche quality and R&D money. Porsche gives Toyota products that are genuinely sporty to get the AMG/M type buyers , not "fake sporty' like their just released GS.

I dont think it would be very good synergy for a Toyota Porsche deal. Even though Lexus service quality experience is outstanding, you have to remember it was Toyota Consulting that influenced the design and manufacture of the Boxster and 996. Financially successful models, yes, but way lower on customer love and felt quality than the 993.

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Mar 22, 2005 11:12:47 PM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: JimFlat6

Re: Oh not a feeling!.

Quote:
JimFlat6 said:
Quote:
MKW said:
Perfect synergy. Toyota gives Porsche quality and R&D money. Porsche gives Toyota products that are genuinely sporty to get the AMG/M type buyers , not "fake sporty' like their just released GS.

I dont think it would be very good synergy for a Toyota Porsche deal. Even though Lexus service quality experience is outstanding, you have to remember it was Toyota Consulting that influenced the design and manufacture of the Boxster and 996. Financially successful models, yes, but way lower on customer love and felt quality than the 993.

Toyota gave them ADVICE at PAG expense on the production side in order to help stave off mid-90s bankruptcy . If Toyota gave them their MONEY, things would be different. ( E.G, no cheap to make for the Boxster and later 996 M96 -type modular costructed engines with the bolted in crankshaft cradles with " designed in " RMS leak potential even to the 997s . )

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Re: If only they read the " car nut " boards more ....

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Oh not a feeling!.

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