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    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    I was reading a Panamera commentary in the 911 & Porsche magazine where the writer says:

    "The front end is just too blunt and stumpy, while the rear is the feature I like the most"

    which is the opposite to what many people here say. Who is right and who is wrong? I think no one. Like the  famous  Dirty Harry (remember him?) line  "opinions are like a**holes, everybody's got one"


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    reginos:

    which is the opposite to what many people here say. Who is right and who is wrong?

     

    Since we are talking about a consumer product, then there is definately a right and a wrong: what ever the mayoritarion opipion is from the mayority of the target population or prospective buyers, that is the right. Just like with the paddles vs buttons.

     


    --


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Carlos from Spain:
    reginos:

    which is the opposite to what many people here say. Who is right and who is wrong?

     

    Since we are talking about a consumer product, then there is definately a right and a wrong: what ever the mayoritarion opipion is from the mayority of the target population or prospective buyers, that is the right. Just like with the paddles vs buttons.

     

    Yes, Carlos but we don't know the opinions of normal buyers. The Press and people on internet Forums are not a representative sample IMO. They tend to be a lot more fussy and over-analytical about things.The Press they always have to make a case about something otherwise they would be out of a job and for the internet forum members these things are a hobby and a pastime so they (we) must always come up with something to argue/debate about.

    As regards the paddles vs buttons Porsche offer the choice now in order  to satisfy multi-car users since the paddles are more common in most brands, not because there is something inherently and radically wrong with buttons.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Reginos, we have a saying here which translated into english goes something like this "if the river sounds, water it carries", meaning that if in all the clatter in the press and forums (places used to express opinions precisely) there is a certain thing that stands out repeatedly then there must be something to it, in this case the undeniably ugly rear of the Panamera that "only a mother could love". 

    As to the paddles, the multi-car user theory is a nice excuse for Porsche backtraking and offering paddles but unfortunately the buttons on the wheel have been around since almost 20 years, as well as the paddles, so if that were te case they had 20 years to offer the paddles on the wheel for those multicar users that have been around for 20 years.

    No, there is a precise reason why the now offer paddles and shortly after the introduction of the PDK and its because with the Tiptronic, the buttons were bearable since the 5 speed torque converter was not a sport-performance or track oriented tranny option and you could bare the buttons, after all its a 5-speed torque converter, but now with the double-clutch secuential PDK, everybody expected the more performance and sport oriented paddles (thats whay they are the preffered method on ALL other sport oriented cars in the market with similar trannys), not the clumpsy buttons for cruisin'. So Porsche had to cave into the "clatter" and pressure and offer the paddles as an option next to the buttons. Unfortunately the rear roof line of the Panamera does not have such an easy fix


    --


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Carlos, I agree with you that the shape of the Panamera polarizes opinion and because I have a sense of beauty (like most people do) I don't find this car beautiful.

    However, other commercially successful luxury cars cannot be considered beautiful and have ugly details and elements that even a layman would have designed differently. Ready examples are the S-class (very heavy rear), the 5-series (over designed with ugly detailing), 6-series (monstrous trunk), Mercedes CL (like an over designed overweight cow) etc etc. Even the Ferrari 612 Scaglietti is an ungainly design to many.

    I am not mentioning those examples as an excuse for Porsche not coming up with a better design. My point is that because fewer people are passionate enthusiasts for these cars very few care to comment about their looks, spend hours discussing them or even do their own PS of how they'd change them. Because Panamera is a Porsche everybody has opinions which do not necessarily reflect the impressions of the potential buyers.

    Anyway, the car will be available as from next month and we'll see how it fares.

    On the other point I am anxious to see the split in orders between paddles and buttons when both systems are made available on all models. It'll be interesting. And on a side note, now that paddles are available people started wanting them on the column instead of on the wheel. It's never ending Smiley


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    reginos:
    And on a side note, now that paddles are available people started wanting them on the column instead of on the wheel. It's never ending Smiley

     

    I don't think that it is a question of people now starting to want the paddles on the column instead of on the wheel. Smiley

    If they had been specifically asked if they wanted paddles instead of the toggles and, if yes, whether the paddles should be fixed to the wheel or to the column, then the majority of people would have chosen the latter solution.

    It's just a matter of Porsche's quick fix to this situation not fully satisfying that majority. Predictable, really. Smiley

     


    --

    fritz


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    fritz:
    reginos:
    And on a side note, now that paddles are available people started wanting them on the column instead of on the wheel. It's never ending Smiley

     

    I don't think that it is a question of people now starting to want the paddles on the column instead of on the wheel. Smiley

    If they had been specifically asked if they wanted paddles instead of the toggles and, if yes, whether the paddles should be fixed to the wheel or to the column, then the majority of people would have chosen the latter solution.

    It's just a matter of Porsche's quick fix to this situation not fully satisfying that majority. Predictable, really. Smiley

     

    Perhaps Porsche should rethink the selection/composition of their focus groups


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    reginos:

    Carlos, I agree with you that the shape of the Panamera polarizes opinion and because I have a sense of beauty (like most people do) I don't find this car beautiful.

    However, other commercially successful luxury cars cannot be considered beautiful and have ugly details and elements that even a layman would have designed differently. Ready examples are the S-class (very heavy rear), the 5-series (over designed with ugly detailing), 6-series (monstrous trunk), Mercedes CL (like an over designed overweight cow) etc etc. Even the Ferrari 612 Scaglietti is an ungainly design to many.

    I am not mentioning those examples as an excuse for Porsche not coming up with a better design. My point is that because fewer people are passionate enthusiasts for these cars very few care to comment about their looks, spend hours discussing them or even do their own PS of how they'd change them. Because Panamera is a Porsche everybody has opinions which do not necessarily reflect the impressions of the potential buyers.

    Anyway, the car will be available as from next month and we'll see how it fares.

    On the other point I am anxious to see the split in orders between paddles and buttons when both systems are made available on all models. It'll be interesting. And on a side note, now that paddles are available people started wanting them on the column instead of on the wheel. It's never ending Smiley

     

     

    The panamera's rear is just one aspect of the car, it has many other that ultimately defines it as a whole. The interior for example looks espectacular not only in quality but also the layout of the dash and console. So even if the rear is ugly there may be other factors that outweight that in many buyer's minds. Its just a pitty that they screw up so bad in the rear, because with a decent rear, I'm not even asking for a great looking rear, it would only have been even better.

    As to the paddles on the column vs the wheel, I personally think Porsche made the right choice placing them on the wheel because all those previous automatic Porsche buyers that have gotten used to the Tip button on the wheel will preffer the paddles on the wheel now on the PDK than on the column I think, because on the wheel would be an easier transition. Maybe thats why the did it. Also Audi DSG and BMW SMG have the paddles on the wheel for quite some time now and there doesn't seem to be that much problem or criticism of that that I know of But as long as they are paddles and not buttons than only belong on the Cayenne, that the important part, wheel paddles vs column paddles I think is a smaller debate.

     


    --


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    I am not convinced the rear treatment is a splendid design, but I certainly don't think it is "butt-ugly" or screwed up, or something to be pitied.  Nor am I convinced that just because EVO magazine makes some clever comment about "only a mother liking it " is evidence "normal buyers" (whoever they are) don't like it.

    If the car does not sell well, then the design may be one reason (along with more fundamental reasons like the economy), and that will tell me much more about whether the design is poor.  If the car does sell well--say 20,000 cars each year--then will posters here say those buyers were all seduced by the Porsche marketing hype or brand or some such?  if a jury were weighing the  evidence of 20,000 purchases versus a few negative comments, which way would the decision go?  Sure you could say that lots of buyers stayed silent in protest, but that is unsubstantiated hearsay in any court. 

    Opinions (mine included) on Internet forums, are just that--opinions of a few people who post their views.  And sometimes those opinions are expressed more casually and carelessly than if they were being expressed in other real world contexts.  For example, would any of you stand up at the press conference in Frankfurt (and there will surely be one in September), and say the rear treatment is butt-ugly and a screw up?  My guess is no.  You might say that the treatment is controversial, or elicits strong opinions, and that would be fairly stated.  But even then, how would you react if attending Porsche management said publicly "Oh thank you, sir.  That is quite different from your view stated publicly on an international forum that it was butt-ugly and a pity."

     


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    I think I mentioned it before and I still think I'm right, Porsche has done the same stuff over and over again in the past.

    In two or three years, there will be a facelift which may already improve a couple of design flaws, not sure however how Porsche wants to get rid of the "hunchback" style of the rear part but I'm pretty sure they're going to succeed.

    There is also the next generation Panamera which, like the next generation Cayenne, will be almost perfect in design and very refined. Porsche does this crap, sorry that I need to say that, all the time, maybe on purpose, I don't know.

    Lets just hope that the next generation Panamera gets the same premium treatment the Cayenne got. Many people will be surprised how clean the design of the next generation Cayenne will look like, some may call this boring, I call this "clean". I don't like a product to be viewed as something special, just because it attracts attention. A beautiful woman with a big fat wart on her nose attracts attention too but do we really want to be with her?!


    --
     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    RC:

     

    In two or three years, there will be a facelift which may already improve a couple of design flaws, not sure however how Porsche wants to get rid of the "hunchback" style of the rear part but I'm pretty sure they're going to succeed

     

     

                  Something like this ...

    orig & fl.JPG

     


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    .... or , something like this ( keeping rear lights in almost original shape - but lowering them for 20 - 25 mm and adjusting curve of rear fenders and bumper accordingly )                     Easy job for  FL .

    luxor orig & mt.JPG


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    RC:

    I think I mentioned it before and I still think I'm right, Porsche has done the same stuff over and over again in the past.

    In two or three years, there will be a facelift which may already improve a couple of design flaws, not sure however how Porsche wants to get rid of the "hunchback" style of the rear part but I'm pretty sure they're going to succeed.

    There is also the next generation Panamera which, like the next generation Cayenne, will be almost perfect in design and very refined. Porsche does this crap, sorry that I need to say that, all the time, maybe on purpose, I don't know.

    Lets just hope that the next generation Panamera gets the same premium treatment the Cayenne got. Many people will be surprised how clean the design of the next generation Cayenne will look like, some may call this boring, I call this "clean". I don't like a product to be viewed as something special, just because it attracts attention. A beautiful woman with a big fat wart on her nose attracts attention too but do we really want to be with her?!

     


     

    Now that the evil Piech has sunk his claws into Porsche, I am not sure if Porsche will continue doing what it has been doing, plus those projects in the pipeline might get modified or even canceled because Piech doesn't like them.


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Misha,

    The Panamera's design flaw in back is related to the CONVEX profile of the rear window to the hatch, producing the dreaded "hatchback" effect.  What Porsche needs to do to salvage (rather than savage Smiley) the Panamera is to taper the rear window down to the rear hatch which then, in a CONCAVE manner, trails out to the tail.  I don't have the P-shop or computer skills and software to display this, but hopefully you understand what I am describing.

    Al

    Smiley


    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

     

     

     

     

     

     

     

    audi-s5-profile.8X6.jpg

    1250454380156mercedes-amg-profile.8X6.jpg

    Note the concave rear profiles of the rear window to rear trunk from the Audi S5 coupe and the prototypical 4-door coupe, the MB CLS (illustrated here as the AMG model):


    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Al ,

    I agree that rear glass is too convex and looks realy dreadful from some angles .  But to go from convex to concave could be to much and difficult to make .  I would be happy with more flat glass as I tryed to create here orig & fl.JPG

    Also , I think that lowering rear lights would reduce bulkines of the rear-end plus it will make rear fenders (hips) more Porsche-like

    c23 & mt.jpg

    All in all , we can expect nice FL improvements   

    Smiley


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    OK guys , this is my final  " design "  for Panamera FL .  I shall not bore you any more  Smiley    Smiley

    mt S.JPG

     

     


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    I certainly understand what you are getting at with the convex profile,  I wonder if your impression is based on seeing the concave pattern on so many current cars.  While I like the concave pattern, it is really not a design based on function below most acceptable speed limits.  No car functionally needs this spoiler effect below 60 or so mph, so why is it good design especially for a company that has always stuck to form follows function?  And also for a company that has an iconic relationship with a series (911) that is convex.  You could say that Porsche has met this design issue by keeping its iconic "Porsche" convex profile until function is necessary and a spoiler emerges which provides both function and a different concave look (which then evokes the Porsche racing image as well). 

    Also, if the Panamera had the concave profile from the first, it would have looked much like many other cars out there today.  I was struck recently by the similarity between the design of a Lexus 600L and the Panamera, if you just imagined the Panamera having the concave flip up in the rear.  My guess is the Porsche designers really wrestled with maintaining "Porscheness", amidst a sea of other cars with a different and more familiar concave rear design.

    I am probably picking nits here, and I am honestly not sure if I even agree with my statements above.  Just musings I guess, worth two cents or so.  But sometimes new and daring designs, just because they break old molds are disliked because they are judged against familiar molds.


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    I have said it before and do it again... imagine where one will see this car, it will primarily be placed in front of hotels, restaurants and used for commutes to work and weekend houses. In short, it is quite often seen in a static position, less so in dynamic situations as breaking the lap record on the Nürburgring.

    A challenge that most marques focussing on drive and sportiness will have to endure in the upcoming future, customer groups and driving scenarios will force them to extend their design language. There should be no surprise that cars such as the Panamera and BMW 5-series GT come to the market right now, it is an affront to any loyal, existing customer of these respective brands but each one will not be able to base their sales numbers on dynamic cars alone. The PS alterations above try to infuse these sportive elements onto the Panamera but it just isn´t intended. Imagine how ridiculous a GT3 will look if you will see it everyday in a traffic jam. So, after all, Porsche tries to create a car that is not only genuine by concept and company design language, it also has to fulfil the needs of both sportscar enthusiast (considering the car as an addition) and limousine owners (considering the car as an replacement). In addition, emerging markets such as China have to be adressed as well (since Volkswagen has sold more cars in China recently than in Germany, making it the most important market).

    I certainly believe that Porsche knows what they are doing in terms of design, causing a stir only at the beginning as some design elements will get pass the beholder´s eye as time goes on. Whether the concept fulfils the customers´ needs and will result in the expected sales numbers will be determined, one can only say that the car did not meet all enthusiasts´ expectations.


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Misha011:

    OK guys , this is my final  " design "  for Panamera FL .  I shall not bore you any more  Smiley    Smiley

    mt S.JPG

     

     

    Misha,

    If you decide to get one make sure you take good care of it because hopefully this will be the first and last Panamera from Porsche Smiley.


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    IMO, if one has to work this hard at it, the design has failed. Porsche will or won't meet their sales expectations, but if they don't the ungainly design will surely and rightfully be blamed. Pending a physical inspection this potential buyer is headed elsewhere.

     


    --
    997 C4S FL

    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Ron (Houston):
    Misha011:

    OK guys , this is my final  " design "  for Panamera FL .  I shall not bore you any more  Smiley    Smiley

    mt S.JPG

     

     

    Misha,

    If you decide to get one make sure you take good care of it because hopefully this will be the first and last Panamera from Porsche Smiley.

    If I don't end up in the hospital before that .. , Ron .

    Smiley     Smiley

    profil 1 & 2.JPG


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    These are for you Misha:


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Thanks Spyderidol ,    Panamera has potential to be 100% great in the FL  model .

    Smiley


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Misha011:

    Thanks Spyderidol ,    Panamera has potential to be 100% great in the FL  model .

    Smiley

    Spyderidol ,

    Forgot to ask you : do you like Gemballa more than 'my Panamera'  ??   Smiley

    crna tt.JPG


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Misha011:
    Misha011:

    Thanks Spyderidol ,    Panamera has potential to be 100% great in the FL  model .

    Smiley

    Spyderidol ,

    Forgot to ask you : do you like Gemballa more than 'my Panamera'  ??   Smiley


    Misha, I'm not Spyderidol and I'm not the biggest fan of Gemballa, but pardon me to say that most of the time I can't really see a difference between the original and that what you call  "your Panamera" at all. Smiley

    With the Gemballa at least  the difference is obvious. Smiley
     


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Rossi ,

    which of the two black Pana's look better / more dynamic , to you ?   If it is the 2nd (bottom) one , reason is that rear lights are lowered (appx 2 - 2.5 cm) and the whole rear , to me , looks less bulky .

    To me , rear bumper is too fat and that effects visualy the entire rear end - not that 5th door and rear glass couldn't be slightly modified as well .

    crna tt misha.JPG


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    I can see the difference Misha, and I like it.  And while the Gemballa is a little over the top for me, I can see some of the Gemballa changes as belonging on a "Panamera  RS" or "Turbo S" model in the future. 


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Thanks Wonderbar .  For future more powerful Panameras , I hope Porsche stay in a moderation like on Cayenne turbo and turbo S .  Let Gemballa and other tuners serve the clients with certain desire .

    .

     


    Re: EVO reviews Panamera S

    Misha - I prefer yours but........I quite like the rear view of the Gemballa car. (except for the Gemballa writing)


     
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