Crown

Rossi:

RC:

Every time I make a complaint or a suggestion, I get the same reply: "we are considering this for future products" or my most beloved reply "you are one of the low percentage of 3% of customers who want that...".

Well, in the meantime they know you.

Funny enough, they mean you and the other guys here too...the 3% are usually referring to the "internet crowd".  

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

RC:

Rossi:

RC:

Every time I make a complaint or a suggestion, I get the same reply: "we are considering this for future products" or my most beloved reply "you are one of the low percentage of 3% of customers who want that...".

Well, in the meantime they know you.

Funny enough, they mean you and the other guys here too...the 3% are usually referring to the "internet crowd".  

Okay, let me put it this way: In the meantime they know you and your dumb Internet followers.

--

The secret of life is to admire without desiring.

noone1:

Grant:

noone1:

650S is an amazing car, but definitely not cheap. I think Euro prices are higher, but you're probably looking at $300K for a 650S Coupe in the US.

Retail starts at $265k.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Retail starts without options though. I'd expect $30K in options.

650S includes quite a bit, like standard carbon brakes and a bunch of other stuff.  A zero-option car is very well equipped.  You'd have to try to get to $30k, no?

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

The nice thing about Mclaren options is that you really wouldn't miss not having any of them.

Rossi:

 

Okay, let me put it this way: In the meantime they know you and your dumb Internet followers.

I have followers? Wow, you give me more credit than I deserve. 

On a more serious note, I think Porsche is making a mistake here. We may be the 3% they always mention but truth be told, many Porsche customers I talk to at dealers don't really think differently than I do. They just don't express their opinions and feelings on the internet. So in reality, the 3% are actually at least 20-30% in my opinion, maybe even more but Porsche probably uses those dumb polling media agencies who ask potential customers about this and that but I don't think that these polls are really relevant. On the other hand, Porsche seems to have success with their (model) strategy but again, I think that this is not because they know what customers want but because customers have no choice, especially if they want something less flashy and something from Porsche. Just my two cents.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

reginos:

KresoF1:
Price of press example of 650S Spider that Sport Auto tested is 313K Euro in Germany...

It's amazing for the Turbo S @ €197K, that everybody compares it with a super-expensive and bespoke supercar made in limited numbers by a F1 outfit.

If I were Porsche, I would have introduced a further price hike immediately

--

"Form follows function"

I'm not sure it's so amazing. The 650S is decked out in CF and the TTS has a ton of the same stuff as a normal C2S. The 911 TT is no longer good value -- no 991 is, in fact. It's way more expensive than the previous car even though the development cycle hasn't really changed. For 200K you should be getting an exotic and unique car, not a slightly more aggressive 911.

Amazing performance is dirt cheap these days. 200K should be buying you a hell of a lot of the other stuff that makes a car worth that kind of money.

Grant:

noone1:

Grant:

noone1:

650S is an amazing car, but definitely not cheap. I think Euro prices are higher, but you're probably looking at $300K for a 650S Coupe in the US.

Retail starts at $265k.

--

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Retail starts without options though. I'd expect $30K in options.

650S includes quite a bit, like standard carbon brakes and a bunch of other stuff.  A zero-option car is very well equipped.  You'd have to try to get to $30k, no?

Nope, quite easy if you like some of the CF options. Here's the order sheet someone posted for their car.

What you are actually saying is that the 650S should be selling for €200K  ("For 200K you should be getting an exotic and unique car") and the Porsche for less. That would have been wonderful!

But since the McLaren is selling for €300K+, then €200K for the powerful 911 is a fair price.

--

"Form follows function"

We are the 3% who know the most about the brand and have followed it from the start.  If anyone can give proper direction it is us.  That is - if they want to remain Porsche.

Leawood911:

We are the 3% who know the most about the brand and have followed it from the start.  If anyone can give proper direction it is us.  That is - if they want to remain Porsche.

Porsche would be bankrupt in 3 years if they listened to us 

2014 991 Carrera 4S | Dark Blue Metallic | PDK | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE
2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

There is no question that you can go crazy with MSO options and drive the price of a 650 up by $150k. On the other hand, the base car is VERY different from a base Porsche! Choose a body color and choose a caliper color and you are pretty much done, (with the possible addition of deviated stitching). BTW, colored stitching on the dash, doors and steering wheel (see photo below) is $490 TOTAL. Compare that to the $1025 Porsche wants for deviated stitching on the steering wheel alone! I wondered about the $1025 vs a flat $1000 but then it hit me: $25 for the stitching and $1000 for their coffers! I am VERY close to becoming a 'turncoat'... driving it again on Thursday. 

Its great to see good competition against Porsche and people thinking of changing brands, Porsche is trying to get away with murder lately, only problem is that cars like the Mac as so limited in production that they barely do any impact.

Carlos from Spain:

Its great to see good competition against Porsche and people thinking of changing brands, Porsche is trying to get away with murder lately, only problem is that cars like the Mac as so limited in production that they barely do any impact.

 I agree with the first part (and the second part also, so far), but the introduction of the P13 next year might be more significant (much higher volume anticipated and price about 30-40% less than 650S).

73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550

Well... 650S is in different sector compared to 991TTS. one is super car, and the other is almost like GT sports car. 

The appearance pretty much separate two cars.  The powertrain is also very different; 560hp/650hp

I see TTS has only 1 advantage; back two small seats.....  but believe me if one has money to purchase 650S, they are going to have two other cars to drive when back two seats are needed.... 

Daily driving ability.... 650S drives very smooth in the city, so does TTS. 

650S is more eye catching, and TTS with 200K price tag nobody really looks at this car..... 

Over here in Taiwan 650S is US$510,000.00 no option, TTS: US$329,000.00.  Two very different sector of cars here. 

I think if TTS can throw in 620hp (as GT2RS) with a very slick look (very different look than 911s), then Porsche will be successful, as it will be start eatting up R8/ 458/ Hurcan/650S market for a cheaper price.... 

I don't care much about looks (OK, I wouldn't want to drive an ugly car like the GT-R for example ) but about performance. Also, I noticed recently that I care a lot about how the interior feels and looks and I cannot say that the 991  interior impresses me (anymore). Maybe it has to do with the fact that my Boxster S (981) looks pretty much the same in the interior and this really sucks. At least Porsche should give the different models a different interior, also based on the price tag of that particular model. I understand the need for a Cayenne-like interior for the new Macan but the facelifted and especially the next gen Cayenne need an upgrade.

Why should I lie? I love the 991 Turbo S but I didn't understand why Porsche gave it a mild 30 hp upgrade only. Yes, the whole package seems to work quite well and yes, the 991 Turbo S is not a slow car but after you get used to it, you ask yourself: What the heck, why didn't Porsche add 50 horses more?!

I am tired of this cat and mouse performance game I always encountered over the last couple of years. Porsche needs to change their game and to be better than the competition, not only at par with it. I know that in some domains, the 991 Turbo S is really ahead of the competition but if I look at the 0-200 kph and 0-300 kph performance, there is a lot to be desired. 

I have a lot of understanding for development/production cost and profit margins, especially after seeing how dedicated the Turbo development department is but I also have to confess that although I changed my opinion (in a more positive way) about their work and the product 991 Turbo S itself, I still cannot comprehend why the 991 Turbo S didn't get 600 hp flat, a power this car has deserved from the beginning. Engine can't produce more than 600 hp? Well, introduce a new engine with the facelift (they did it with the old 997 Turbo too). Next engine development not ready or too expensive? Well, add 10k EUR to the already high 991 Turbo S price tag and make it happen. On a 200k EUR car, an additional 10k EUR wouldn't have really bothered the customer, especially if the performance (0-200 and 0-300 kph) would have been much better.

Yes, Porsche will introduce an upgrade with the facelift but I really started to hate this (facelift) game. It makes me uncomfortable, it actually started to p.ss me off because you pay (thanks god I leased it) 205k EUR and three years later, the car is outdated. I get it, this is how it works but it still p.ss.s me off. 

In the end, I think that there is no real alternative to the 991 Turbo S in certain regions and for certain people. Like I said before, the social environment counts a lot and even in regions like the US, you cannot really drive in a flashy/exotic looking car to a business meeting. This is just inappropriate. Porsche knows this, this is actually the success of the 911 model range. It is a true sports car (not a GT, I really don't like people calling the 911 a GT because it isn't...a GT would be the Mercedes SL or the BMW 6 series) but also very suitable as a daily driver because of the comfort and the two rear seats. This really is important to some people who buy such cars.

Long story short: I would never buy a 650S in Germany, neither a Ferrari 458 Speciale or Lamborghini Huracan. These cars are eye catchers and can really provoke a lot of people here. Just recently a friend, he is a quite wealthy doctor, told me that his associate has purchased a Ferrari 458 Spider and that he considers his associate to be provoking him. When I asked out of curiosity why this would be a provocation, my doctor friend told me that this car creates a lot of envy and really doesn't like it. So if someone like him, who could probably afford such a car too, says this, what about the rest of the people who cannot afford such a car? I hate to start this whole envy discussion again but you need to understand that there are markets and regions where a flashy/exotic looking car is just inappropriate, like it or not. 

This is why I am actually a little bit mad at Porsche: They know this, they know that the success of the 991 is based on the less flashy exterior and the tradition of the 911. So why not give customers of their top models more power and more performance, so they can at least keep up with cars like the 650S? Do I really need to buy a 960 or a 918 to be able to be faster than McLaren or Ferrari? Porsche makes a huge mistake here in my opinion.

--

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

Grant:

Carlos from Spain:

Its great to see good competition against Porsche and people thinking of changing brands, Porsche is trying to get away with murder lately, only problem is that cars like the Mac as so limited in production that they barely do any impact.

 I agree with the first part (and the second part also, so far), but the introduction of the P13 next year might be more significant (much higher volume anticipated and price about 30-40% less than 650S).

Lets hope, but even if the P13 sells in higher volume, the impact in Porsche sales will still be small given Porsche's volume and sportcar model diversification. At least it may have an impact in image, with McLaren taking part of the sportlight. McLaren seems to be growing into what we used to love about Porsche, a premium sportscar brand with driver oriented sportscars, and a great relationship with their clients going the extra mile for them in the post-sale service and support, and also in perfomance upgrades, etc. Porsche has left that philosophy and is now more worried about becoming a generalist brand like BMW or AUDI, and the consecuent "generalist brand" relationship with the customers were they can sell you a new car with a fire-prone castatrophic engine fault, keep it at the shop for 4 months and give it back to you with a non-matching number engine and one year extra warranty handout, and if you don't like it tough because they have 100 SUV customers for one GT3 customer like you...

--

McLaren understands what people want and the prices are OK for the performance and looks these cars offer.

Porsche seems to be thinking a little bit too much about profit margins and facelifts, instead of giving customers maximum possible performance and pure driving pleasure. Especially after introducing the Macan now.

I am a highly loyal Porsche customer but I already started to shift my mind to other products from other manufacturers. Maybe I am getting older and my taste in cars changes too but performance has always been a priority for me and if Porsche cannot deliver, I have to look for it somewhere else. Especially the peformance/price ratio is very important to me.

Before Easter, I had a Ford Mustang GT 500 Shelby testdrive. This car costs half of what a 991 Carrera S costs with similar options and it is even faster. Maybe a stupid comparison but after such test-drives, I kind of feel ripped off by Porsche.

RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014), BMW X3 35d (2013)

I don't think Porsche at its current price levels make financial sense for someone who buys (as opposed to renting the car)  for one year and then resells for the newer one. I am referring to normal people not persons who have money to burn and don't care about depreciation. 

There are many good and cheap alternatives from other brands for 1 or 2 years of tenure.

IMO a sports Porsche makes sense when you use it for a longer period. I would say 5-10 years. This long time period may not be fashionable in the age of consumerism and ever ending gadgetry , but this is the point you can see what goes into a Porsche compared to the Nissans and the Mustangs and all the rest of the also runs. The German Used Car reports like from TUV and others always place the 911 at the top places  in the 5 year+, category, wheras before the 5 years it is lower (teething problems, warranty claims etc.)

One proviso is meticulous  maintenance.

My conclusion is that the happiest Porsche owners are those who buy used after 3-5 years.

--

"Form follows function"

There have always been unsophisticated, cheap and  powerful  cars that can destroy the 911 or match the 911 Turbo in a straight line but Porsche provides the whole package and they are quicker point to point.  That is more important to me

Gen II Cayman S

reginos:

I don't think Porsche at its current price levels make financial sense for someone who buys (as opposed to renting the car)  for one year and then resells for the newer one. I am referring to normal people not persons who have money to burn and don't care about depreciation. 

There are many good and cheap alternatives fro other brands for 1 or 2 years of tenure.

IMO a sports Porsche makes sense when you use it for a longer period. I would say 5-10 years. This long time period may not be fashionable in the age of consumerism and ever ending gadgetry , but this is the point you can see what goes into a Porsche compared to the Nissans and the Mustangs and all the rest of the also runs. The German Used Car reports like from TUV and others always place the 911 at the top places  in the 5 year+, category, wheras before the 5 years it is lower (teething problems, warranty claims etc.)

One proviso is meticulous  maintenance.

My conclusion is that the happiest Porsche owners are those who buy used after 3-5 years.

I fully agree.

I also think that owning cars for 5+ years offers more satisfaction as one has the chance to "bond" with the car. I love going to the garage and thinking of all he things I have done with a car and all the places I have been with it. To me this "bond" gives more satisfaction than owning the latest and greatest at all times.

This is obviously subjective but that is how I feel anyway.

RC:

McLaren understands what people want and the prices are OK for the performance and looks these cars offer.

Porsche seems to be thinking a little bit too much about profit margins and facelifts, instead of giving customers maximum possible performance and pure driving pleasure. Especially after introducing the Macan now.

I am a highly loyal Porsche customer but I already started to shift my mind to other products from other manufacturers. Maybe I am getting older and my taste in cars changes too but performance has always been a priority for me and if Porsche cannot deliver, I have to look for it somewhere else. Especially the peformance/price ratio is very important to me.

Before Easter, I had a Ford Mustang GT 500 Shelby testdrive. This car costs half of what a 991 Carrera S costs with similar options and it is even faster. Maybe a stupid comparison but after such test-drives, I kind of feel ripped off by Porsche.

Another long time loyal Porsche customer here that is starting to think the same.

I am looking for an alternative to a Porsche 911 for the sake of having a change and because Porsche manufacture too many SUVs lately and they are not a pure sports car company as in the past.

But I wouldn't want to spend more than the €105.000 plus extras that the Carrera S costs that I, like other members of Rennteam, already consider expensive.

Moreover, I don't want to buy a ///M or AMG version of a mainstream coupe or saloon and definitely not Asian or American. The new R8 might be an alternative but it is inconvenient for daily driving and too showy. I might consider Jaguar but from what I've read it is more of a car for "straight line people" and I prefer the curves than maxing out on the highways; it also only comes with a confined cabin.

Any ideas 

--

"Form follows function"

A 911. 

I went through this conundrum time and time again. Try a standard Carrera - you might be surprised?

991 (what a car!) XC90 - 120 Cab - 2 kids, 1 dog

reginos:

I am looking for an alternative to a Porsche 911 for the sake of having a change and because Porsche manufacture too many SUVs lately and they are not a pure sports car company.

But I wouldn't want to spend more than the €105.000 plus extras that the Carrera S costs that I, like other members of Rennteam, already consider expensive.

Moreover, I don't want to buy a ///M or AMG version of a mainstream coupe or saloon and definitely not Asian or American. The new R8 might be an alternative but it is inconvenient for daily driving and too showy. I might consider Jaguar but from what I've read it is more of a car for "straight line people" and I prefer the curves than maxing out on the highways; it also only comes with a confined cabin.

Any ideas 

 

--

"Form follows function"

If you can live without backseats... Try the Cayman! (or Boxster if you like to drive with the roof down). IMHO, the best alternative for a 911 Carrera (S), regardless of what some people say. It's more practical than a 911 as well...
Another alternative would be the Jag F-type coupe, like you mentioned, but you first need to drive it anyways, to see if the car is a "straight line people's car".

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

Reginos : I am on the same path as you ....... It is actually sad so many long time 911 loyal fans are now looking els were , but we all get the same feeling . Porsche has put too much time , energy and priority into SUV  and sedans then into their sports cars ...... except for the price increase .

The 911 is still the best sports DD and has no real alternative....... but, I could not buy the 991.... it does not satisfy me enough , specially at the requested price and now that so many other cars have the same, or even better performances .

I decided, to keep my 997 and get a proper sports car on the side . My name is down for a GT3 RS , but right now, I am not so much excited about it anymore . I worry about the price / performance  + reliability and I do not trust Porsche to have put what is needed into the car to make it very special . I will wait for final judgment when the car is out .

Friday I will test drive the 650 S ..... and feel very exited about it !

As a DD, I would not know what to buy . Maybe the Jag, but no back seats .( 1 st on the list for the moment. This is probably a fun car even if not as sharp as 911 )

Maybe the M4, but would need to try it to see how the chassis feels .

Or go down to a Golf R and tune it to 350 HP . That thing would be a small missile  and cost 1/3 rd of the price of a 991 ! But then, could I be satisfied in a Golf ?

Or buy again a used 997 with different specs ..... like manual  + power kit + - 20 mm 

--

 997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm

2-8 years old is my sweet spot.  Perhaps it is because I bought my first Porsche at age 15 with hard earned money (apprentice in a machine shop) that I had to get a used one ('72 914).  Since then I have always bought the best used 911 I could afford - using my knowledge and experience to find barely used, highty depreciated, excellent examples.  Then I drive them EVERYWHERE all the time (my Turbo did 20K miles already in 11 months - Florida 2x, Atlanta, etc.) and fix them myself anytime I am able to.  It is better to buy tools and learn.  I typically keep them 5-7 years.  Now I am 50 (technically 31, given my wifes age) and on my 8th Porsche, 7th 911, and have enjoyed an entire lifetime of affordable Porsche ownership. 

Rarely have I suffered any depreciation (maybe 20K total!) and if I had kept all of them I would have made money! All my old aircooled cars are now worth far more than I paid for them - that dang 914 would now be worth 10K more than I paid for it. Repairs have been mostly routine maintenance - these cars are VERY cheap to put high miles on.  After about 700K+ miles in my lifetime driving 911s I have been blessed with good Porsche luck! 

Would I ever buy a new 991?  Not given the many excellent used 911 out there looking for a good home.  Owning them in the US is VERY affordable.  There is nothing magical about owning a new one at all in my mind.  There is only massive depreciation (which you pay for one way or another - even if you lease) and although I have only one kid left in college I can not see myself wasting that much of my families wealth and potential future income on automobile depreciation.  (Perhaps if these cars did not depreciate so much the 'in your face' factor (Neid) would not be so over the top in some countries and cultures.)  I see many 991s driving around town. My 'old' Turbo could not only eat their lunch but I paid half as much and won't lose a cent when I sell it.  I can see the regret in their eyes - at least that is how I would feel (they don't know any better or don't care).

Lucky for me Kansas City (Leawood) is not that way at all. I have no concerns with my neighbors or co-workers. I could drive any car and people would only applaud around here and want to go for rides.  We value success and achievement, say what you will about us dumb hick farmers and Tea partiers.

These are just cars - very special cars - and their fun and excitement does not change at all after the original owner moves on.  I am now looking forward to used Macs!

I've been looking seriously at the Audi RS5 lately. For about 40K less than a 911 I can get a great car that provides practicality and a great driving experience. I don't think any Porsche is worth what they cost these days (excluding the 918), especially after you add in some decent options.

I gave up on all but 911 GT cars after the 993. Not a fan of big wings (except on airplanes) and don't need rear seats (except in SUV's). I want a car that offers 'addictive' performance like I haven't felt since my 964 Flachbau Turbo S. I had hoped for a 400-450 hp Cayman but, at the rate that Porsche is fiddling with that model, I will be in a rocking chair by then. The McLaren is ostensibly a 650 hp Cayman and it is here now!!

JoeRockhead:

I've been looking seriously at the Audi RS5 lately. For about 40K less than a 911 I can get a great car that provides practicality and a great driving experience. I don't think any Porsche is worth what they cost these days (excluding the 918), especially after you add in some decent options.

+1
Very nice car and probably the last Audi with a normally aspirated V8.... Looks very good too (IMHO)

Suzy

2013 Porsche Boxster S (MT) | Basalt black metallic
2014 Audi A6 Avant 3.0 BiTDI Quattro | Moonshine blue metallic
 

The 981/91 are just not involving enough for me and not great value so I'm considering  a Golf R, 335i Touring, Alpina D3 Touring, M3 or Macan for daily use, plus an Elise or Exige for fun.

Gen II Cayman S