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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:

    Thanks for the YT link. Newer Teslas do not read traffic signs but use GPS position and a central database. Works as well as the automatic wipers. Guess, that I'm safe from this type of attack angry

    The newer cameras are, to my knowledge (not exactly my field), not susceptible to these kind of attacks but I am pretty sure that if simple things aren't working anymore, real hacking (aka accessing the car's OS and control unit(s)) will do the job. Smiley Of course this works also with non-EV cars but I think the more tech these cars get, the bigger the risk of an attack point ("point of entry"). If you can update the whole car's OS OTA, I don't see why hacking it OTA shouldn't be possible, especially if someone had physical access to the car and modified the OS and/or opened a "port" of some sort. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    schmoell:

    Thanks for the YT link. Newer Teslas do not read traffic signs but use GPS position and a central database. Works as well as the automatic wipers. Guess, that I'm safe from this type of attack angry

    The newer cameras are, to my knowledge (not exactly my field), not susceptible to these kind of attacks but I am pretty sure that if simple things aren't working anymore, real hacking (aka accessing the car's OS and control unit(s)) will do the job. Smiley Of course this works also with non-EV cars but I think the more tech these cars get, the bigger the risk of an attack point ("point of entry"). If you can update the whole car's OS OTA, I don't see why hacking it OTA shouldn't be possible, especially if someone had physical access to the car and modified the OS and/or opened a "port" of some sort. 

    Fully ack. The attack surface is getting bigger with an increasing speed. OEMs know about this and add firewalls and gateways into the cars network, which is even more software 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:
    RC:
    schmoell:

    Thanks for the YT link. Newer Teslas do not read traffic signs but use GPS position and a central database. Works as well as the automatic wipers. Guess, that I'm safe from this type of attack angry

    The newer cameras are, to my knowledge (not exactly my field), not susceptible to these kind of attacks but I am pretty sure that if simple things aren't working anymore, real hacking (aka accessing the car's OS and control unit(s)) will do the job. Smiley Of course this works also with non-EV cars but I think the more tech these cars get, the bigger the risk of an attack point ("point of entry"). If you can update the whole car's OS OTA, I don't see why hacking it OTA shouldn't be possible, especially if someone had physical access to the car and modified the OS and/or opened a "port" of some sort. 

    Fully ack. The attack surface is getting bigger with an increasing speed. OEMs know about this and add firewalls and gateways into the cars network, which is even more software 

    Good for you (not sure if you're doing business in this domain as well) and/or security IT experts. 

    My daughter very likely goes for computer science with specialization in network security and cyber security afterwards (if she still wants it Smiley), so I guess this is a business with a future, especially for women. The more tech our life gets, the more security will be an issue. Good. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Hey RC. I’m a Computer Science major. I can highly recommend it and also Software Engineering disciplines. AI is also a good option if your daughter can choose some modules, along with security. It’s good to understand how computers work and how they can serve us and improve lives. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    "Software is eating the world" as they say. Learning computer science will give your daughter a whole bunch of options for her career. And the best part is, that it can be a lot of fun too.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Funny, my daughter is only 13 yet but she and I have been talking that she should look into that field as her future career.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It’s a dog eat dog world in software.  I love the challenge but it grows old and can be stressful. No good paying job in that field is simple. Same as anywhere. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    boytronic:

    Hey RC. I’m a Computer Science major. I can highly recommend it and also Software Engineering disciplines. AI is also a good option if your daughter can choose some modules, along with security. It’s good to understand how computers work and how they can serve us and improve lives. 

    Thank you, good to know. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:

    "Software is eating the world" as they say. Learning computer science will give your daughter a whole bunch of options for her career. And the best part is, that it can be a lot of fun too.

    Smiley  Me and my wife would have preferred her to go for medicine but my daughter is a shy person, she is not too much into social interaction, prefers to read a lot and programming is really something she enjoys. We'll see how it goes, so far she has little programming experience (only some Java, Swift and C++ stuff) but she is really serious about it and I know she can do it if she wants to. She loves logical stuff, she loves structure in her life, so... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:

    Funny, my daughter is only 13 yet but she and I have been talking that she should look into that field as her future career.

    Definitely a wise recommendation! IT companies are looking for females, some companies even have quotas which cannot be filled. Also women usually have a different perspective on various aspects of life, including the usability of programs, etc.. I think it would make the world a better place if more women would go the MINT route.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I am a computer science major too. Trying to get my son focused on his future and go for a computer science major in software engineering, data science and AI. 


    --

    Tesla Model S P100d. 2018 991.2 GT3. 2019 BMW M850i Convertible. 2020 Tesla Model 3 Performance. 2020 Aston Martin Vantage. 2020 Mclaren 720S coupe. 🥳


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Don't know wether this link is working... found it Facebook, people in my business told me a comparable story...

    Dutch people on the way to their skiresort....


    --

     

    965 3.3turbo/  993 targa / 996 cab /997S cab/996 GT3

     

    Audi A6 3.0 biturbo Quattro/Mini JCW/ 993 cab// boxster spyder


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    beltar:

    Don't know wether this link is working... found it Facebook, people in my business told me a comparable story...

    Dutch people on the way to their skiresort....


    --

     

    965 3.3turbo/  993 targa / 996 cab /997S cab/996 GT3

     

    Audi A6 3.0 biturbo Quattro/Mini JCW/ 993 cab// boxster spyder

    Are they all waiting in queue to use the eight bays at the Supercharger?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    it is what it is. Exactly how Bill Gates said it, EV is not quite ready for prime time.

    Charging it takes way too long as compared to going to a gas station. The moment the charge time can come down to not much slower than filling up gas will be the tipping point moment.

    Yes some here will still argue about charging at home blah blah blah. But these guys are NOT at home, they need a fill up in the middle of their journey.


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    Charging it takes way too long as compared to going to a gas station. The moment the charge time can come down to not much slower than filling up gas will be the tipping point moment.

    And before that happens fuel cell EV's may be cost effective leaving battery EV's outdated, more polluting and taxing on the powergrid. Lots of "ifs" yet for that prime time.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    All of this will make excellent reading some day. Brilliant. 
    almost forgot - bla bla bla 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    ...............

    Charging it takes way too long as compared to going to a gas station. The moment the charge time can come down to not much slower than filling up gas will be the tipping point moment.

    .............................

    I think charging time won't really be coming down much anytime soon. The BEV will still be capable of taking a hugh market share. I only drive more than 100 miles from home once every year or two without flying. 

    Still gasoline or another liquid fuel derived from algae or another yet unknown fuel will likely remain or become common for those desiring longer distance travel more frequently.

    With VW and Daimler and Ford gearing up electric vehicles with over the air updates and self driving capabilities, I am sure that BEV will grow and yet not at all sure who will be leading the pack.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Carlos from Spain:
    Whoopsy:

    Charging it takes way too long as compared to going to a gas station. The moment the charge time can come down to not much slower than filling up gas will be the tipping point moment.

    And before that happens fuel cell EV's may be cost effective leaving battery EV's outdated, more polluting and taxing on the powergrid. Lots of "ifs" yet for that prime time.


    --

    ⇒ Carlos - Porsche 991 Carrera GTS

     

    Fuel cells' biggest advantage over battery EV is weight. There is no need to carry a thousand pound worth of battery. A small one will still be needed to supply power before the fuel cell booted up, but that's nothing compared to the giant EV battery.

    Second advantage is refuel time, it will be close to gasoline. 

    Down side is that hydrogen stations are even more rare than electric charging station, but it isn't that bad, every existing gas station can be retrofitted with a hydrogen pump. Investment is minimal compared to installing 300+kw chargers. And best of all, location location location.

    Fuel cell cars also can't be 're-charged' at home.

    Hydrogen will need to be produced somewhere, but the hydrogen 'refinery' can be placed far from population, and either the plant can be run in off peak hours to save on electricity cost, or can be powered by renewal sources too.

    If you tell the general public to pick one form of clean vehicle, and just give them facts, with nothing spicy added:

    -A EV, that can be charged at home overnight, or go in charging stations during your trip and spend 30-40 mins waiting for the charge.

    -A fuel cell EV, that cannot be charged at home, but it is as easy to re-fuel as their normal car, just need to pop into a gas station and get a fill up done in less than 5 minutes

    Pretty sure most will pick the fuel cell EV. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gladstone:
    Whoopsy:

    ...............

    Charging it takes way too long as compared to going to a gas station. The moment the charge time can come down to not much slower than filling up gas will be the tipping point moment.

    .............................

    I think charging time won't really be coming down much anytime soon. The BEV will still be capable of taking a hugh market share. I only drive more than 100 miles from home once every year or two without flying. 

    Still gasoline or another liquid fuel derived from algae or another yet unknown fuel will likely remain or become common for those desiring longer distance travel more frequently.

    With VW and Daimler and Ford gearing up electric vehicles with over the air updates and self driving capabilities, I am sure that BEV will grow and yet not at all sure who will be leading the pack.

     

    See my post just below yours.

    Anyways, for a certain group of people, anything over 100 miles range is wasted, range is a super non-issue. Some, in this group of people, are already buyers of EVs. 

    The fact that re-charging a EV on the road takes more than 30 mins is what puts people off and make range an issue. Tesla mitigated that by publishing a longer range so people think they can do few stops. But the stigma is still there. Consumers are used to getting a full tank in 5 mins. Getting the charge time down to close to that number is the key to convincing these people. They won't know they don't need to go to charging stations perhaps in their lifetime with their EV, but the mentality is there. 


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    For me personally range anxiety is not an issue. At home I charge at almost 50 mph and $.04 per kWh between midnight and 6am. Easy math, that cost is ONE cent per mile given I get roughly four miles per kWh. There are literally hundreds of destination chargers within a 20 mile radius - many of which are free to use (for now). Same at my office. The Tesla super chargers easily connect cities around the country. The new v3 supercharger I used on my trip to Dallas required a 15 stop in Wichita.  I think it cost me $12 each way. At my destination I charged using a 30 amp 240 outlet. Every house with a dryer has one. It charges at around 22 mph. Plenty for overnight fill up.  IF you think about it there are many more places to plug in than to get gasoline. At 1000 mile per hour at super chargers speed is just fine for rare road trips.  For daily use home charging, if you have a home, makes this tech prime time. Did you see $.01 per mile?  To charge at home this is too hard to pass up. 0-60 in 2.9 seconds. Nuts.  
    I go out driving for hours on weekends just for grins!  
    The big limiting factor for everyone will be batteries!  There are not enough of even the current type. Demand over the next few years will have a huge impact on cost and size/capacity/speed. Fun times. I personally don’t think fuel cells will win this one. They only win in terms of weight and speed to charge. Both of these are fleeting advantages and not long term. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Fuel cell cars will always carry a smaller battery than battery EV, that advantage will always be there no matter the battery tech. 

    Charging speed will get close eventually, but still won't equal filling up a tank. 

    As I said before, the general car buying public is dumb. They never realize that between them charging at home and charging at work, 99% of the time they won't need to find a charger. This is valid for those that can charge at home. For those that can only park the car on the street and/or underground without plugs, public charging stations will be needed. And for these people, even with the already exist charging infrastructures, it's still not as convenient as going to a gas station, which are like 4 to a city block.

    It's always the perception, not the reality, that hinders people's choices. 

    I am here in Whistler right now, there are 10 charging stations around the village, the other night I went out for dinner and wanted to top off the battery in my Panamera, surprise! All the charging spots are taken by Teslas, and there is a lineup of another 4 cars waiting. I gave up and just park in a normal spot and top off at home later. Advantage of a hybrid, if I don't find a charger, I can still drive around with the gas engine.


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    I always put my comments in terms of my experience. Everyone has his unique challenge as the transition takes place.  Given that electric power is pretty common and adding outlets pretty cheap it may just be a matter of time.  At any rate it is fascinating to watch unfold. I could not be happier about all of this. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Leawood911:

    I always put my comments in terms of my experience. Everyone has his unique challenge as the transition takes place.  Given that electric power is pretty common and adding outlets pretty cheap it may just be a matter of time.  At any rate it is fascinating to watch unfold. I could not be happier about all of this. 

     

    I know you are Smiley

    And your car IQ is quite a bit above the general public. You can't equate your own experience to those people, they simply don't get it.

    I am happy with my e-Tron too, the range is plenty and I never needed to find a charger, just home charging is plenty good enough. 

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    Fuel cell cars will always carry a smaller battery than battery EV, that advantage will always be there no matter the battery tech. 

    Charging speed will get close eventually, but still won't equal filling up a tank. 

    As I said before, the general car buying public is dumb. They never realize that between them charging at home and charging at work, 99% of the time they won't need to find a charger. This is valid for those that can charge at home. For those that can only park the car on the street and/or underground without plugs, public charging stations will be needed. And for these people, even with the already exist charging infrastructures, it's still not as convenient as going to a gas station, which are like 4 to a city block.

    It's always the perception, not the reality, that hinders people's choices. 

    I am here in Whistler right now, there are 10 charging stations around the village, the other night I went out for dinner and wanted to top off the battery in my Panamera, surprise! All the charging spots are taken by Teslas, and there is a lineup of another 4 cars waiting. I gave up and just park in a normal spot and top off at home later. Advantage of a hybrid, if I don't find a charger, I can still drive around with the gas engine.

    Over here it's like this at Teslas Superchargers more often than not. As an additional downside max charging power goes down dramatically if most stalls are occupied. Just recently I got 30kW with an almost empty battery.  In a way it's a good sign that there is an increasing number of ELVs, but supply for the cars has to keep up with the growth. Ionity (the company building the Taycan 300kW chargers in Europe) just raised their price to 0,79ct/kWh, which is about 5x more expensive than Diesel. I don't think that this is a good sign


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:
    Whoopsy:

    Fuel cell cars will always carry a smaller battery than battery EV, that advantage will always be there no matter the battery tech. 

    Charging speed will get close eventually, but still won't equal filling up a tank. 

    As I said before, the general car buying public is dumb. They never realize that between them charging at home and charging at work, 99% of the time they won't need to find a charger. This is valid for those that can charge at home. For those that can only park the car on the street and/or underground without plugs, public charging stations will be needed. And for these people, even with the already exist charging infrastructures, it's still not as convenient as going to a gas station, which are like 4 to a city block.

    It's always the perception, not the reality, that hinders people's choices. 

    I am here in Whistler right now, there are 10 charging stations around the village, the other night I went out for dinner and wanted to top off the battery in my Panamera, surprise! All the charging spots are taken by Teslas, and there is a lineup of another 4 cars waiting. I gave up and just park in a normal spot and top off at home later. Advantage of a hybrid, if I don't find a charger, I can still drive around with the gas engine.

    Over here it's like this at Teslas Superchargers more often than not. As an additional downside max charging power goes down dramatically if most stalls are occupied. Just recently I got 30kW with an almost empty battery.  In a way it's a good sign that there is an increasing number of ELVs, but supply for the cars has to keep up with the growth. Ionity (the company building the Taycan 300kW chargers in Europe) just raised their price to 0,79ct/kWh, which is about 5x more expensive than Diesel. I don't think that this is a good sign

     

    Charging stations aren't sized for max draw on all the chargers, they probably spec them as 50% usage if not even less than that. Their infrastructure cost would increase dramatically if they sized for max draw.

    Electricity aren't free, there are always costs associated. Public chargers aren't suppose to be the main source of energy for EV, it's there more for convenience, as they expect EVs to be primarily charged at home, unlike normal cars where gas station are the primary if not the only source of energy. So a premium is expected for the convenience. 

    I am lucky, where I live, the electric company operate a pretty big charging network and it's all free, there is a couple companies operating their own charging networks but those are not free, never got a chance to use them to see what they charge though. We do have relatively cheap electricity cost, ~$0.09US per kW.

    What's your home electricity cost?

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    schmoell:
    Whoopsy:

    Fuel cell cars will always carry a smaller battery than battery EV, that advantage will always be there no matter the battery tech. 

    Charging speed will get close eventually, but still won't equal filling up a tank. 

    As I said before, the general car buying public is dumb. They never realize that between them charging at home and charging at work, 99% of the time they won't need to find a charger. This is valid for those that can charge at home. For those that can only park the car on the street and/or underground without plugs, public charging stations will be needed. And for these people, even with the already exist charging infrastructures, it's still not as convenient as going to a gas station, which are like 4 to a city block.

    It's always the perception, not the reality, that hinders people's choices. 

    I am here in Whistler right now, there are 10 charging stations around the village, the other night I went out for dinner and wanted to top off the battery in my Panamera, surprise! All the charging spots are taken by Teslas, and there is a lineup of another 4 cars waiting. I gave up and just park in a normal spot and top off at home later. Advantage of a hybrid, if I don't find a charger, I can still drive around with the gas engine.

    Over here it's like this at Teslas Superchargers more often than not. As an additional downside max charging power goes down dramatically if most stalls are occupied. Just recently I got 30kW with an almost empty battery.  In a way it's a good sign that there is an increasing number of ELVs, but supply for the cars has to keep up with the growth. Ionity (the company building the Taycan 300kW chargers in Europe) just raised their price to 0,79ct/kWh, which is about 5x more expensive than Diesel. I don't think that this is a good sign

     

    Charging stations aren't sized for max draw on all the chargers, they probably spec them as 50% usage if not even less than that. Their infrastructure cost would increase dramatically if they sized for max draw.

    Electricity aren't free, there are always costs associated. Public chargers aren't suppose to be the main source of energy for EV, it's there more for convenience, as they expect EVs to be primarily charged at home, unlike normal cars where gas station are the primary if not the only source of energy. So a premium is expected for the convenience. 

    I am lucky, where I live, the electric company operate a pretty big charging network and it's all free, there is a couple companies operating their own charging networks but those are not free, never got a chance to use them to see what they charge though. We do have relatively cheap electricity cost, ~$0.09US per kW.

    What's your home electricity cost?

     

    about 30 €-ct/kWh- including

    • 30% taxes
    • 20% renewable energy tax which is not called tax (a German thing to pay for solar and wind because we have shut down nuclear and are about to shut down the rest) 
    • 20% for the network 
    • 25% for power, revenue etc

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Literally like 100% tax on electricity. 

    So the Ionity premium is around 160% of their cost? Actually not too bad.


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Our government is now discussing how to get back  the tax money on petrol they are loosing with the switch to EV.  Their idea for the moment is to tax cars on the actual real miles they will be doing. That would mean a serious control on all our cars heart and a good excuse to monitor much more then the miles !!!


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Just add tax to registration of EVs to cover the loss of petrol tax revenue, simple!

    Using the size of the EV and find a comparable petrol car, then apply the average petrol consumption per year of that, charge the amount of tax the owner should have paid per year. 

    This is a form of tax evasion too. So might as well find the least fuel economical comparable in that class as the basis for calculation.

     


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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    There are two taxes on cars :

     First one is a taxed on cars , yearly ,  calculated on weight + power .  As an incentive to push people to '' cleaner '' cars and show to the public that government does something '' positive '' , they cut down this taxe to nearly nothing for EV  or hybrid .  

    So changing the tax they get on fuel to the kind of tax you mention would ruin that method .

    The second tax is the one on petrol . Not getting  the tax on that one will be a massive loss . They charge about 73 ct/ l  extra on the price of petrol .

    Monitoring the cars will be the best way for the government , as it will allow also other kind of controls . I am pretty sure this idea is in the draws of many other governments . The EV switch will be the perfect moment to implement individual car monitoring and control , if not enough opposition from the general public .

     

     


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


     
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