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    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    TulsaTurbo said:
    KresoF1, MKSGR, Crash,

    I feel like I am being painted into a corner of someone who is a pure Tip fan and not a manual transmission fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. If one will reread my past posts I consistently say 'I loved my 996TT manual!"

    I enjoy the post from all three of you and have a commanding respect for your opinions.

    My primary goal in my posts is to make sure that all the facts are on the table regarding the Tip. Again, in my previous posts, I was clear that I really disliked my Tip when I first got it. It took me a while, but once I learned to drive the car such that it was constantly in the meaty part of the powerban, I learned to like it a lot.

    I like manual so much it was a very tough decision to get the Tip. I wouldn't hesitate one second to by a manual with LSD. They are great cars, every bit as good as mine with a Tip. I do not proclaim that one is better then the other. I do claim that both are great cars.

    KresoF!: It was not my intent to imply that 'PROS' like Tip more. I was trying to say that the 'PROS' have moved away from manual transmission in many if not most race cars because manuals cannot be shifted (even by the PROS) as consistently perfect as computer can shift a car. My point was even a PRO would have a hard time not losing ground to a Tip during shifting. Finally, your last point is exactly the point I was truing to make. The performance of both cars is so close that the drivers will ultimately determine the winner in a heads-up battle! On this we whole-heartedly agree!

    Cheers to all three of you!



    Your point is well taken. Also, your argument that the Tip grows on you after using it a while is shared by very prominent celebreties (RC being the most important of them ).

    From my perspective there is a distinction between respect and aknowledgement for a technology like the Tiptronic in the 997TT and the ultimate respect for a top-of-the-league technological solution.

    Clearly, the Tip in the 997TT is much improved, delivers spectacular performance and does work quite well in 99% of real life situations.

    But then, just do a manual shift (via the buttons in the steering wheel): I am sure you feel how slow the system does shift. Isn't that annoying?

    Also, do some laps on a track you know quite well. I am sure that you would be faster (and have more fun) in a manual 997TT.

    Also, where is LSD on the 997TT Tip?

    These examples just highlight why some of us consider the 997TT Tip a sub-optimal sultion. Of course that does not imply that a 997TT Tip is a bad car. The Tip has very serious advantages. Depending on how you intend using the car the Tip might be the right choice

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    TulsaTurbo said:
    KresoF1, MKSGR, Crash,

    I feel like I am being painted into a corner of someone who is a pure Tip fan and not a manual transmission fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. If one will reread my past posts I consistently say 'I loved my 996TT manual!"

    I enjoy the post from all three of you and have a commanding respect for your opinions.

    My primary goal in my posts is to make sure that all the facts are on the table regarding the Tip. Again, in my previous posts, I was clear that I really disliked my Tip when I first got it. It took me a while, but once I learned to drive the car such that it was constantly in the meaty part of the powerban, I learned to like it a lot.

    I like manual so much it was a very tough decision to get the Tip. I wouldn't hesitate one second to by a manual with LSD. They are great cars, every bit as good as mine with a Tip. I do not proclaim that one is better then the other. I do claim that both are great cars.

    KresoF!: It was not my intent to imply that 'PROS' like Tip more. I was trying to say that the 'PROS' have moved away from manual transmission in many if not most race cars because manuals cannot be shifted (even by the PROS) as consistently perfect as computer can shift a car. My point was even a PRO would have a hard time not losing ground to a Tip during shifting. Finally, your last point is exactly the point I was truing to make. The performance of both cars is so close that the drivers will ultimately determine the winner in a heads-up battle! On this we whole-heartedly agree!

    Cheers to all three of you!



    Your point is well taken. Also, your argument that the Tip grows on you after using it a while is shared by very prominent celebreties (RC being the most important of them ).

    From my perspective there is a distinction between respect and aknowledgement for a technology like the Tiptronic in the 997TT and the ultimate respect for a top-of-the-league technological solution.

    Clearly, the Tip in the 997TT is much improved, delivers spectacular performance and does work quite well in 99% of real life situations.

    But then, just do a manual shift (via the buttons in the steering wheel): I am sure you feel how slow the system does shift. Isn't that annoying?

    Also, do some laps on a track you know quite well. I am sure that you would be faster (and have more fun) in a manual 997TT.

    Also, where is LSD on the 997TT Tip?

    These examples just highlight why some of us consider the 997TT Tip a sub-optimal sultion. Of course that does not imply that a 997TT Tip is a bad car. The Tip has very serious advantages. Depending on how you intend using the car the Tip might be the right choice



    If the Tiptronic cars would come with a 6- or 7-speed transmission which actually behaved like a manual car (did exactly what you told it to) and the option of an LSD, I suspect things would have been very different. I like automatics for highway driving, I just can't stand the lack of control in the twisties.

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    TulsaTurbo said:
    KresoF1, MKSGR, Crash,

    I feel like I am being painted into a corner of someone who is a pure Tip fan and not a manual transmission fan. Nothing could be further from the truth. If one will reread my past posts I consistently say 'I loved my 996TT manual!"

    I enjoy the post from all three of you and have a commanding respect for your opinions.

    My primary goal in my posts is to make sure that all the facts are on the table regarding the Tip. Again, in my previous posts, I was clear that I really disliked my Tip when I first got it. It took me a while, but once I learned to drive the car such that it was constantly in the meaty part of the powerban, I learned to like it a lot.

    I like manual so much it was a very tough decision to get the Tip. I wouldn't hesitate one second to by a manual with LSD. They are great cars, every bit as good as mine with a Tip. I do not proclaim that one is better then the other. I do claim that both are great cars.

    KresoF!: It was not my intent to imply that 'PROS' like Tip more. I was trying to say that the 'PROS' have moved away from manual transmission in many if not most race cars because manuals cannot be shifted (even by the PROS) as consistently perfect as computer can shift a car. My point was even a PRO would have a hard time not losing ground to a Tip during shifting. Finally, your last point is exactly the point I was truing to make. The performance of both cars is so close that the drivers will ultimately determine the winner in a heads-up battle! On this we whole-heartedly agree!

    Cheers to all three of you!



    Your point is well taken. Also, your argument that the Tip grows on you after using it a while is shared by very prominent celebreties (RC being the most important of them ).

    From my perspective there is a distinction between respect and aknowledgement for a technology like the Tiptronic in the 997TT and the ultimate respect for a top-of-the-league technological solution.

    Clearly, the Tip in the 997TT is much improved, delivers spectacular performance and does work quite well in 99% of real life situations.

    But then, just do a manual shift (via the buttons in the steering wheel): I am sure you feel how slow the system does shift. Isn't that annoying?

    Also, do some laps on a track you know quite well. I am sure that you would be faster (and have more fun) in a manual 997TT.

    Also, where is LSD on the 997TT Tip?

    These examples just highlight why some of us consider the 997TT Tip a sub-optimal sultion. Of course that does not imply that a 997TT Tip is a bad car. The Tip has very serious advantages. Depending on how you intend using the car the Tip might be the right choice



    If the Tiptronic cars would come with a 6- or 7-speed transmission which actually behaved like a manual car (did exactly what you told it to) and the option of an LSD, I suspect things would have been very different. I like automatics for highway driving, I just can't stand the lack of control in the twisties.



    Very true, indeed. Maybe PDK will be close to the optimal solution

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    If PDK will be like DSG(or S-Tronic) then I simply do not think so.

    I am one of those people who do not see any advantage is DSG over true automatic or manual... Why?

    Go head and test drive VW Golf GTI with DSG or new Audi TT 3.2 with S-Tronic. If any of you find out that this DSG solution is more involving then manual then simply wait for PDK or if you find DSG more comfortable then TIP.

    IMHO DSG boxes are still far from true merge between automatic and manual. In character they are far closer to average automatic box then to true manual... BUT, TIP box is far better in D mode then any DSG box that I tried.

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    If PDK will be like DSG(or S-Tronic) then I simply do not think so.

    I am one of those people who do not see any advantage is DSG over true automatic or manual... Why?

    Go head and test drive VW Golf GTI with DSG or new Audi TT 3.2 with S-Tronic. If any of you find out that this DSG solution is more involving then manual then simply wait for PDK or if you find DSG more comfortable then TIP.





    Should your expectation come true then their would be just one "serious" alternative to the manual gear-box: F1/e-gear...

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    If PDK will be like DSG(or S-Tronic) then I simply do not think so.

    I am one of those people who do not see any advantage is DSG over true automatic or manual... Why?

    Go head and test drive VW Golf GTI with DSG or new Audi TT 3.2 with S-Tronic. If any of you find out that this DSG solution is more involving then manual then simply wait for PDK or if you find DSG more comfortable then TIP.





    Should your expectation come true then their would be just one "serious" alternative to the manual gear-box: F1/e-gear...



    No, no. Sequential systems(a la F1, e-gear or R-Tronic) are designed for high reving NA engines with not too much low end torque... 997tt simply said can not be designed with sequential system.

    DSG(or PDK) is another story since this double clutch gearbox would be ideal(specially with 7gears) for 997tt. BUT, I do not like the way current DSG gearboxes are working-they do not know what to mimic-manual or TIP!

    Maybe new PDK will be indeed better then both manual and TIP, but I am doubtfull...
    Why?
    First, PDK gearbox will be very big and heavy so, no place for LSD again. Second, will it improve already world class acceleration times of TIP(with torque braking!) version?

    ...and finally can you imagine paddless on 997tt steering wheel?
    I can not! And I hate those stupid buttons...

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Of all your points, the lack of LSD is perhaps the most noteworthy to me! LSD is sorely missed!

    My own experience with the 'slow manual shifting' is that the computer seems to speed things up and slow things down according to the aggressiveness of my driving. So, yes,I notice the slow shifting especially when I have been bogged down in traffic ... and this is annoyng. However, in the open road, in the twisties, or on the track, I can honestly say that I am pleased with the shifting and cannot ever remember even thinking about being disappointed in the slow manual shifting.

    The tracks around here and for most of the US only require 2nd, 3rd and 4th gears for most cars (and cycles for that matter ... yes, I used to race GP motorcycles here in the States!). Most of the time you are in third gear just moving up or down one gear. In these track situations the Tip does suprisingly well. My best times in my 997 TT Tip are a few seconds off my best times in my 709hp 996TT manual. I cannot say for sure whether this is due to the extra hp of the 996TT or to the different transmissions. The 996TT was an unbelievably fast monster. I loved it! I can say that learning to get the most out of my 997TT has been a blast. Yes, it has been fun.

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    I am one of those people who do not see any advantage is DSG over true automatic or manual... Why?

    Go head and test drive VW Golf GTI with DSG or new Audi TT 3.2 with S-Tronic. If any of you find out that this DSG solution is more involving then manual then simply wait for PDK or if you find DSG more comfortable then TIP.




    I'm also "one of these people"
    It seems that quite a lot of Rennteamers are very much looking forward to the PDK. It might be a better solution compared to the Tiptronic, but from my own impression of a DSG GTI it's not for those looking for the most driver's involvement (regardless of 0-100 times etc.) and IMO driver's involvement should be top priority in any sportscar (may be it's different if one uses the Porsche a lot for boring commuting drives or "Autobahn only" duty - finally it's a matter of personal preference and user's profile).

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    I am also very pleased with my TIP, especially in the twisties. Downshifts are fast and smooth while upshifts are fine - not much slower than one would usually shift a manual.

    While many, including myself, were hoping for a PDK gearbox, the new TIP really does provide many good characteristics:
    1. It will hold on to gears without shifting up.
    2. Its downshifts are brisk and smooth.
    3. You can simply place it in Auto at the track and forget about shifting - and concentrate on driving. While I have yet to track it, IMO most owners will be faster in a TIP than a 6-spd. Proper gear selection, with fast shifts is hard to accomplish each and every time by the average driver.
    4. It seems to provide excellent traction during 0-100/0-200 etc, even without LSD and with 1 less gear. I believe RC mentioned something about all the electronics which are better utilized in the TIP to provide good traction.
    5. Auto mode provides very smooth shifts. Sequential (F1) transmissions are NOT good (jerky) in stop & go traffic.
    6. In Auto mode, you can still manually override it.

    The Turbo's new TIP has really impressed me. And, yes, I did test a 6-spd before placing my order.

    I would suggest driving a TIP for several hours, exploring all of its features before jumping to conclusions.

    Yes, many of us were hoping to see the new Turbo set new performance/technical standards. In many ways, it has, just not to the degree that many wanted. But its performance is near 996GT2 levels!

    Today's level of competition from Lambo/Ferrari/etc it just unbelievable. Look at how quickly everyone seems to be updating their line-up. Get used to it, otherwise you'll be constantly disappointed.

    Don't forget, the Gallardo and f430:
    1. Cost "significantly" more, at least in the US.
    2. Are almost impossible to get.
    3. They aren't practical enough to drive as a daily driver.
    4. And most of all, you can't put many miles on them per year or it would kill their resale value.


    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS


    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Would highly doubt pseudo-scientific precision of many/all of these accel/track numbers from any publication....the perf data being generated by 3600lb 997TT, 4000lb 599 and 4600lb SL65 are converging to where one needs to carefully eval/control for many microscopic variables and review raw data, not just "summary" data, to understand sloppiness of data .....suspect much variation btwn same-model cars due to mfg tolerances, break-in, cond. of brakes/tires/clutch, driver variation (even same driver on same day), driver familiarity w/characteristics&quirks of each car/tranny/wt class, etc etc....and, let's face it, journalists/test drivers aren't the brightest guys when it comes to numbers (or much else )

    Agree P is notably behind F/MB in developing innovative technologies to provide fast/smooth paddleshifter trannies; solve turbo lag; and create a charismatic exhaust note....

    Prob 99% of repeat P/F buyers never track their cars; are only OK, "wkend warrior" drivers (Suspect there is a slightly different set of driving skills needed for spirited driving on bumpy public roads w/many poss surprises from fellow drivers vs a smooth track w/perhaps more controlled conditions. If one is a really phenomenal driver, wouldn't he have been a pro driver in his younger yrs?? And, if one was a pro when younger, what's the decay curve on driving skills post-retirement??).....nor do prob 95% of P/F buyers care to drive anywhere near lims of any of these cars.....one can appreciate steering precision, brake pedal feel, mid-range tq, exhaust note, smooth/fast shifting, chassis balance, etc etc at fairly civilized speeds on public twisties/urban fwys; most frequent-repeat F/P buyers have a keen sense of risk/reward balance vs those w/"less-to-lose" in life.....

    Given how tight the N-ring times/accel times for various 3000-5000lb cars are today, would argue qualitative, subjective driving "feel" on one's local, real-world roads w/one's own limited, amateur driving skills is far more relevant than what a mythical pro racecar driver can do on some stretch of traffic-free, derestricted AB in Podunk, Germany (in perfect weather of course ).....or on some perfect track in Podunk....

    As a car addict who typically gets new, latest/greatest cars every 4-6mos and trades-in after <5K mis.....would observe that it takes me some 2K mis in varying conds in back-to-back comparos to really assess any car.....memories fade quickly of cars driven even a few mths back....and, in an era of increasingly tech-intensive cars, even cars produced later within a given MY may have various "quiet" software updates/debugs which can materially affect perf/feel, esp if impacting motor/tranny/brakes/chassis/stab ctrls, etc....

    My bet is that the always-delayed PDK (whenever it's released) will be as buggy/disappointing as PCCB 1.0 and F1 1.0 of 5-10 yrs ago.....

    Nevertheless, as an early adopter, whenever P finally releases 997TT w/PDK and PSE, I'll get an early copy to do own, amateur, back-to-back comparos vs latest iterations of 599/CL65.....

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    We all have our different reasons why picking the 997TT tip. I simply got it as I am just tired of the high-powered rear wheel drive cars' lack of usability when weather is less than perfect.

    I find it more relevant for my use in North America to focus on traction, gadgets and <100 mph performance.

    I see it as the best bang-for-the-buck general purpose sports/GT car. Heck I even put on snow tires and take my daughters out in it.

    Would I enjoy the F599 and AMG65s more than the 997TT? Probably on the highway in perfect weather going straight, but 9 times out of 10, I'm found zipping around town at intersections in the rain. This is where the 997TT shines.

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Guys,

    There's nothing "wrong" with choosing a Tip car over manual or vice-versa, although for me, a manual tranny is more FUN, whether or not it's faster or slower than Tip. I have tested both a Tip and manual 997TT and I would never buy Tip, no matter how fast it is. It's just too boring. I like to control which gear I select (whether smartly or not), and I'm not even sure PDK will be good enough to sway me from a manual. My other concern with any of the potential automated trannies for the 997TT in the next couple of years (Tip, DSG, PDK) is also whether these could handle a mega-power upgrade (700-ish), since that's what I plan to do with the one I get.

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    tortesq1 said:
    MKSGR,

    How often do you track your turbo ? I ask only because ALL owners I know in the LI/NY area do NOT track their cars. The races are won and lost on the Long Island Expressway, Seaford- Oyster Bay Expressway, Jericho Turnpike, etc. I know you don't know these roads (probably not) but it seems to me that almost all of the races with the big 4 (997TT,F430,Gallardo,ZO6) that I have seen come down to one thing alone - driver skill. Your one second per lap difference may be huge on a track (it IS huge on a real track in a real race), BUT in the real world, on MY streets, your one second difference is, with all due respect, meaningless. IMHO, whether a car is easy to drive fast is MUCH more important than a .5 second difference in 0-60, 0-100, 0-200. Again, I don't diagree with your analysis, only the end result. For example, one blown shift, no one sloppy shift and a slower Gallardo will spank a Z06. The tip 997TT IS less engaging/fun than a 6 speed, but when you really want to drop the hammer, me with less skill than my adversary, has a shot to win....why.....the tip launches fairly easily and more importantly maintains boost b/w shifts. Anyway, if I was rich (and I'm not) I would have 5 cars - all of the big 4 and tt in both tip and stick. One can dream. Maybe if I married rich/won the lottery I'd have a Veyron to boot.



    I agree with Markus on this one. It doesn't matter whether a Tip is faster than a manual. It seems that PAG "created" this Tip "superiority" for marketing reasons to recruit the non-enthusiast demographic that would never buy a 911Turbo/widowmaker in the past.

    But for most 911Turbo owners who view themselves as enthusiasts who also want a daily driver with supercar qualities, in non-competitive, spirited recreational driving-how these cars will most often be used by most of us-the cars are about the same speed, depending on conditions.

    So for enthusiasts who love the involvement of the manual tranny, Tip is boring, and it therefore doesn't matter whether Tip is faster or slower than manual on track or in a street race. With Tip as the tranny, we believe that one might as well buy a Mercedes S sedan.

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    So confusing this tip vs manual. P needed the PDK last year. They lost my sale for now, although the two TT I saw yest were stunning.

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Kreso,

    I thought that thread would make a lot of sense

    Just saw it now

    I dont mind if tiptronic is faster or slower , i was an 996 Porsche tiptonic owner in the past, now i drive e-gear and SMG, i am sure i will not return to any tiptronic tranny in future after having plus and minuse expeirences of F1/E-gear/SMG style gearboxes.

    Minus: Yes jerky in city limit and high service cost.

    Plus: It is really fun and kills all minuses and makes you excited while driving.


    Also it is very interesting that both company under same roof Audi and Porsche built an automatic gearbox and say it is faster than our manual product

    Btw regarding AMuS i do not trust their datas as i ve had a discussion with AMuS Turkey Editor with this subject, our discussion also send to AMuS Germany Test Editor...(As Turkish editor told me)

    Re: Comparison test TIP vs. manual-German AMS

    Quote:
    KresoF1 said:
    Sequential systems(a la F1, e-gear or R-Tronic) are designed for high reving NA engines with not too much low end torque... 997tt simply said can not be designed with sequential system.

    DSG(or PDK) is another story since this double clutch gearbox would be ideal(specially with 7gears) for 997tt. BUT, I do not like the way current DSG gearboxes are working-they do not know what to mimic-manual or TIP!
    [...]
    First, PDK gearbox will be very big and heavy so, no place for LSD again. Second, will it improve already world class acceleration times of TIP(with torque braking!) version?




    An F1-style gearbox could've indeed been utilized in Porsche's turbocharged models. I'd say it is primarily due to financial and marketing aspects that this hasn't happened in the past. Apart from that for daily terms of use any F1-style box offered today has its disadvantages.

    The difference in drivers' perception among these various types of gearboxes is, in my eyes, very, very subjective and depend on the way you look at and use the car. Hence the differing opinions that will probably never end up on one common denominator.

    I personally am disappointed that, obviously due to marketing reasons, that the driver-orientated sportscar got dilluted by a less-than-optimal component that nonetheless has the nod when it comes to straight-line performance. Maybe that's the overall message of the thread: while you had to learn how to handle the Turbo in the twisties back then, you now have to learn how to handle its transmission. Welcome in 21st century...

     
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