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    Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    http://www.autoblog.com/2009/07/10/report-porsche-considering-selling-49-of-sports-car-business-t/


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    Happy Driving

    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    This may be a stupid question but why don't they unload the VW shares instead of the Porsche AG shares?


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    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    If they sell them in the open market the price and consequently the value of the holding will fall drastically.

    If they wish to sell them to an investor or a consortium they must find someone with the ability to spend this amount of money AND who can put up with the serious restrictions imposed by the VW-Law and be willing to accept the power of the Workers' Unions and the Niedersachsen politicians.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Porsche SE is still willing to control VW, hence the possible disposal of 49% in Porsche AG (Sports Cars) rather than some VW shares.


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    A report by Germany’s Der Spiegel says that Volkswagen AG has offered Porsche SE’s controlling families roughly 8 billion euros ($11.28 billion) to buy the company’s sports car business. The report said that the Porsche and Piech families will agree on the deal as early as July 23.

    When it’s all said and done, Volkswagen will own a 49.9 percent stake in Porsche AG. At a later date, Germany’s largest automaker will acquire the rest of the sports car maker, in a deal that would create an automotive group with 10 brands.

    The sale would help Porsche pay most of its 10 billion euro debt sources told Reuters.

     

    Disgruntled Porsche CEO Wendelin Wiedeking, who opposes the deal, is planning on taking a severance package that could total more than 100 million euros. Production chief Michael Macht will replace him as the head of Porsche in the mean time.

    - By: Omar Rana

    Source: Reuters


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    According to Michael Cotton, Euroean Editor of the Porsche Panorama magazine of the PCA (Porsche Club of America), in the July 2009 edition, Pieech wants VW CEO Martin Winterkorn to head the future Porsche holding company.

    And in motorsports activities, according to motorsports engineers in Weissach, Porsche would abandon the RS spyder program, but focus on the GT category with the 911-which is profitable.  Porsche could and should become a  niche brand, with the 911 and all its variants predominating.


    --

    1997 993 TT Proto 3.8L 700HP

    2005 996 TSCab EVO GT700

    2006 Noble M400 "M600" 573RWHP

    2007 Audi RS4 MTM exhaust/clutch/LWFW


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Turbo Al:

    According to Michael Cotton, Euroean Editor of the Porsche Panorama magazine of the PCA (Porsche Club of America), in the July 2009 edition, Pieech wants VW CEO Martin Winterkorn to head the future Porsche holding company.

    And in motorsports activities, according to motorsports engineers in Weissach, Porsche would abandon the RS spyder program, but focus on the GT category with the 911-which is profitable.  Porsche could and should become a  niche brand, with the 911 and all its variants predominating.

    This would be a dream coming true, I hope it'll happen.


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

     

     

    Well, just as predicted! Porsche Motorsport relegated to a secondary position.

    We will never again see Porsche win Le Mans.

    So sad!


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Spyderidol:

     

     

    Well, just as predicted! Porsche Motorsport relegated to a secondary position.

    We will never again see Porsche win Le Mans.

    So sad!

    Porsche last won LM 11 years ago and with the WW state of things no solid plans were ever announced towards this goal. IMO under WW, there would always be a different priority  to divert funds and effort from a LM win.

    At least within the VW Group Porsche could be given the green light to pursue this objective at some time in future. What is the status quo now in terms of Motorsport segmentation, doesn't mean it will always remain the same.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Ron (Houston):
    Turbo Al:

    According to Michael Cotton, Euroean Editor of the Porsche Panorama magazine of the PCA (Porsche Club of America), in the July 2009 edition, Pieech wants VW CEO Martin Winterkorn to head the future Porsche holding company.

    And in motorsports activities, according to motorsports engineers in Weissach, Porsche would abandon the RS spyder program, but focus on the GT category with the 911-which is profitable.  Porsche could and should become a  niche brand, with the 911 and all its variants predominating.

    This would be a dream coming true, I hope it'll happen.


    Growing up seeing 935/934 winning every race I watched, I am always more interested in GT racing than prototype and see a GT3 winning related to the 911 I love more than a prototype car.  I hope Porsche would build a GT1, like a modern day 935, that can dominate GT racing. 


    --
    93' Guard Red 968 Coupe

    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Monster:
    Ron (Houston):
    Turbo Al:

    According to Michael Cotton, Euroean Editor of the Porsche Panorama magazine of the PCA (Porsche Club of America), in the July 2009 edition, Pieech wants VW CEO Martin Winterkorn to head the future Porsche holding company.

    And in motorsports activities, according to motorsports engineers in Weissach, Porsche would abandon the RS spyder program, but focus on the GT category with the 911-which is profitable.  Porsche could and should become a  niche brand, with the 911 and all its variants predominating.

    This would be a dream coming true, I hope it'll happen.


    Growing up seeing 935/934 winning every race I watched, I am always more interested in GT racing than prototype and see a GT3 winning related to the 911 I love more than a prototype car.  I hope Porsche would build a GT1, like a modern day 935, that can dominate GT racing. 

     

    I agree with that, but GT should allow more latitude to develop cars. They should really use that platform as a true racing development lab, not the evolutionary development today's GT is.

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    reginos:
    Spyderidol:

     

     

    Well, just as predicted! Porsche Motorsport relegated to a secondary position.

    We will never again see Porsche win Le Mans.

    So sad!

    Porsche last won LM 11 years ago and with the WW state of things no solid plans were ever announced towards this goal. IMO under WW, there would always be a different priority  to divert funds and effort from a LM win.

    At least within the VW Group Porsche could be given the green light to pursue this objective at some time in future. What is the status quo now in terms of Motorsport segmentation, doesn't mean it will always remain the same.

    @Reginos - I think you know my veiw on this.  Porsche will NEVER be allowed to enter the top prototype class whilst Audi has a program. The funding "issue" under Wendy could (if desired) be resolved, simply through sponsorship deals (much like much of the costs are supported in F1).

    As for the time frame: I dont expect it to change fro the next decade (at least)


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Monster:
    Ron (Houston):
    Turbo Al:

    According to Michael Cotton, Euroean Editor of the Porsche Panorama magazine of the PCA (Porsche Club of America), in the July 2009 edition, Pieech wants VW CEO Martin Winterkorn to head the future Porsche holding company.

    And in motorsports activities, according to motorsports engineers in Weissach, Porsche would abandon the RS spyder program, but focus on the GT category with the 911-which is profitable.  Porsche could and should become a  niche brand, with the 911 and all its variants predominating.

    This would be a dream coming true, I hope it'll happen.


    Growing up seeing 935/934 winning every race I watched, I am always more interested in GT racing than prototype and see a GT3 winning related to the 911 I love more than a prototype car.  I hope Porsche would build a GT1, like a modern day 935, that can dominate GT racing. 

    Remember that much of the Porsche racing heritage comes from it's world record wins at Le Mans. Most of those wins were with Prototype cars or with the top class at that particular moment in time. (case of the 935)

    By limiting Porsche to the GT class, VAG would be in effect limiting Porsche from entering the top class, thus in effect excluding it from overall wins.

    Porsche will , in the fullness of time, loose it's status as the manufacturer with the most Le Mans wins, and thus another large part of its heritage. What makes it worse is that it wont even be allowed to at least try and defend its status.

    This might make some people happy; as an ardent sportscar fan (and Porsche Motorsport fanatic), it make me very , very sad indeed!


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Overall LM win, a dream given the circumstances of the last 10 years

    But even GT class wins have not been a certainty under the WW regime. I am sure that with the new status,  whatever level of motorsport Porsche decide to concentrate on, they will at least be consistently successful.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

     There is some rumor that the proposed deal will cost millions in taxes and that they are trying to work out a way around it (which may involve the creation of new holdings)


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Whilst I agree that a LM win was "problematic" to say the least ,over the last 10 years, we must acknowledge that the pro-diesel regulations (over the last 4 years) have also contributed to this scenario.

    One of the dangers on the horizon for GT class racing, is what seems to be a general trend towards "performance leveling" rules. This means that any technical advances will be overuled via the introduction of performance restrictors in order to re balance the cars.

    This unfortunately, does nothing to improve technology.


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Eunice:

     There is some rumor that the proposed deal will cost millions in taxes and that they are trying to work out a way around it (which may involve the creation of new holdings)

    I've read that selling a % of Porsche AG (as Piech wishes) will be less tax effiecient for the for Porsche than selling a % in Porsche SE (as WW has been trying with Qatar).

    What a MESSY affair!


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    reginos:
    Eunice:

     There is some rumor that the proposed deal will cost millions in taxes and that they are trying to work out a way around it (which may involve the creation of new holdings)

    I've read that selling a % of Porsche AG (as Piech wishes) will be less tax effiecient for the for Porsche than selling a % in Porsche SE (as WW has been trying with Qatar).

    What a MESSY affair!

     

     Very Messy, Governor of lower saxony (Wulff) just announced that the tax problem is just WW trying to stop the deal.

    Let's just hope Wulff gets his mouth shut by the EU commission, this is way over his top and he's part of the problem, not the solution. 


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    Eunice:

     

     Very Messy, Governor of lower saxony (Wulff) just announced that the tax problem is just WW trying to stop the deal.

    Let's just hope Wulff gets his mouth shut by the EU commission, this is way over his top and he's part of the problem, not the solution. 

    Politicians are terrible when involved in business and industry. (See the fate of the various nationalized industries around Europe once protectionism was lifted and artificial monopolies ceased to exist.)

    Unfortunately, politicians are bad at everything else they get their hands on too.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    reginos:
    Politicians are terrible when involved in business and industry. (See the fate of the various nationalized industries around Europe once protectionism was lifted and artificial monopolies ceased to exist.) 
    Unfortunately, politicians are bad at everything else they get their hands on too.

     

     

    Spot on!  Smiley

     


    --

    _________________________________________________________ 

    A. Dias --- 997.2S (ordered). Previous cars: Corvette C6,  996 C4.


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    I stand by my word: Wulff is the first who should face the "firing squad" i.e. get sacked. This intermingling of politics and business is truely appaling.

    Porsche will be taken over- that's a fact we have to get used to- it's just a matter of time. I just hope that all your hopes come true and Porsche will remain largely independent and can refocus on its core values.

    I just fear that with all the platform sharing that is about to come, something will be lost and we'll have a VWized Porsche. If the next Porsche is just another R8/Lambo clone (though they are great cars!), the Porsche brand will be truely dead.

    Or maybe Porsche will be the new entry level Sportscar and all the extreme versions like the GT2 will see the axe in order to not compete with the wild Lambo versions.


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

     

     

    I share your fears!


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    OTOH why would someone pay to buy Porsche brand in order to destroy it soon after?

    There is room for everyone and anything under VW. When they see a Callardo how many people think VW. Not to mention Bugatti. Even the R8 has gone beyond VW and Audi itself.

    My expectation is that Porsche will be more well defined as sports brand under a larger company. All the compromises in product design that PAG has made in the last 15 years were solely for the purpose of being independent. These will not be needed after the integration.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts

    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

     I don't know, the products itself may become less compromised i.e. more focused on a specific target group, but I just fear that the parts that make up the car itself will be sourced from its lesser siblings. Do you want a Polo door knob in your Porsche?

    You also have to take Bentley and Bugatti out of the equation- those are truely boutique brands- I'm not even sure they make any money.

    And to be honest when I see a Gallardo I think Audi. I still love the Gallardo, but that's just the way it is.

     


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    reginos:

    OTOH why would someone pay to buy Porsche brand in order to destroy it soon after?

    There is room for everyone and anything under VW. When they see a Callardo how many people think VW. Not to mention Bugatti. Even the R8 has gone beyond VW and Audi itself.

    My expectation is that Porsche will be more well defined as sports brand under a larger company. All the compromises in product design that PAG has made in the last 15 years were solely for the purpose of being independent. These will not be needed after the integration.

    Agree
    100PerCent.jpg


    --
    Happy Driving

    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    All will be revealed.......in the fullness of time.

    It will all depend on how they position the brand. Unfortunately "they" may want to position the brand differently to how we see it. In a perfect world, a decision would be made based solely on objectivity, unfortunately given the recent past history, I fear that there may be a substantial injection of subjectivity involved in the future placing of the brand within the VAG.


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    All scenarios are open to speculation and of course no one knows the future.

    A ray of optimism for me emanates from the fact that most of the compromises as regards models and engines and motorsport expenditure were made by Porsche AG in their wish for independence. Things like the Cayenne range and especially the lower engines, the diesels and hybrids were essential to generate cash and reduce the environmental averages as a standalone manufacturer. 

    I expect more purity in Porsche products and even Porsche injecting technology into the VW Group rather than borrowing.  For example the excellent in most respects R8 could do with a version of the PDK instead of the unsuccessful R-tronic. Remember also, how many outside contracts Weissach do.

    Moreover, putting too much emphasis on individuals is wrong. People like Piech, Wolfgang Porsche and WW come and go but the brands remain. Piech is already 73, so his expectancy as an executive is rather short. At his age he will most probably begin having to cope with more serious problems than the platform, engine size and PS of the next 911.


    --
    It's not where you're going, it's how you get there that counts


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    The Porsche "hardliners" like the Porsche CEOs, the union, etc. apparently are hoping that the deal doesn't go through. IF VW gets a grip on Porsche, there are various scenarios possible and some of them don't look too bright for the Porsche leadership, the Porsche employees and the brand itself.

    Right now it seems that VW and Piech are going to win but Wendelin Wiedeking is a very clever guy and has a lot of support within Porsche itself, so maybe the fight isn't over yet.

    It is getting interesting, no doubt about it but whatever happens, keep one thing in mind: Porsche is NOT Opel or any other kind of bankrupt car company, so whatever you guys think, think positive because Porsche will live on without major problems and so do their products.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

    reginos:

    OTOH why would someone pay to buy Porsche brand in order to destroy it soon after?

    There is room for everyone and anything under VW. When they see a Callardo how many people think VW. Not to mention Bugatti. Even the R8 has gone beyond VW and Audi itself.

    My expectation is that Porsche will be more well defined as sports brand under a larger company. All the compromises in product design that PAG has made in the last 15 years were solely for the purpose of being independent. These will not be needed after the integration.

     

    1. yes, VW doesn't have any interest in destroying Porsche and/or the brand, on the contrary

    2. yes, Porsche would be a more "defined" sportscar or high performance company under a larger company

    3. no, Porsche can't abandon the Cayenne and Panamera anymore, it would be stupid and inefficient. VW will keep both products as an addition to the 911, simply for those who want a very sporty SUV and limousine. I even think that VW will add one or two products to the portfolio, unfortunately one of them will be definetely an entry-level Porsche with lots of VW parts used for it.

    I don't know why so many people think that the Cayenne and the Panamera are a bad thing for Porsche, they aren't. The only bad thing for the brand are models like the Cayenne V6 or Panamera V6 who may not fulfill the performance expectations of some customers.

    From a "global" point of view, the integration of Porsche into the VW family may not be a bad thing at all, Porsche could even profit from Lamborghini and Bugatti and vice versa. On the other hand, an independent Porsche company could be more attractive for buyers who are thinking traditional. Unfortunately even the current Porsche leadership has done a lot of bad things for the brand, one example is the CI stuff they forced upon dealers, forcing some of the dealerships even to close down because of the high investment cost. I never felt well in CI dealerships, I always enjoyed the family atmosphere in older dealerships where even the boss is driving a Porsche and where you can sit together, drink an Espresso and talk Porsche. These times are mostly over and this is a pitty.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor 997 Turbo, Cayenne Turbo S, BMW M3 Cab DKG, Mini Cooper S JCW


    Re: Porsche considering selling 49% of sports car business to VW?

     

    @ reginos and RC - I really hope that you are both right and the effects of this "disaster" are not felt in the products and I personally hope that it is not felt in the Motorsport program.
     
    Just a note of clarification: I am sure that what ever decision is made on the brand placing of Porsche within the VAG, it won’t be seen as “destroying the brand” by those who make the decision. “They”, I’m sure, will make a decision thinking that it is the best and most profitable one for the group (and not for Porsche alone anymore).
    What I’m trying to say is that, that decision may be seen as “destroying the brand” by us.
     
    I really wish that I felt optimistic about this, but I must confess that I’m quite disheartened.

     


     
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