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    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    I agree that the ratios are probably not the same, but surely it doesn't matter what the ratios are, all that matters is real world performance.


    But the acceleration is going to be related to the gearing!
    So it's not a like-for-like comparison!
    Compare the tip figures for the S against the tip figures for the base model if you like. They ARE exactly the same box. 6.3 secs 0-62 for the Boxster S and 7.1 secs 0-62 for the Base 2.7. That's a 0.8 second or 12% difference!

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    The 987 suspension is the same on 2.7 and 3.2S. You can optionally spec PASM on either car.

    I can't comment on the 986 though.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    I agree that the ratios are probably not the same, but surely it doesn't matter what the ratios are, all that matters is real world performance.


    But the acceleration is going to be related to the gearing!
    So it's not a like-for-like comparison!
    Compare the tip figures for the S against the tip figures for the base model if you like. They ARE exactly the same box. 6.3 secs 0-62 for the Boxster S and 7.1 secs 0-62 for the Base 2.7. That's a 0.8 second or 12% difference!



    I agree with everything you say and I am not trying to make a like for like comparison. A 997 against a 987S isn't a like for like comparison either, but people still compare them. I am comparing a tipS against a manual 2.7, and there is virtually nothing to seperate them with regrds to performance.

    Thus my point that there is not a 'differnt world' of performnce between the owners of a tip S and a manual 2.7.

    Ultimately what I am trying to say is that the 2.7 isn't as crap as some people would make out.

    Cheers for the debate,

    JZ

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said: By the way, there is NO difference between the suspension setup on the 2.7 vs the S. None whatso ever.

    Are you sure? There is between the 986 vs 986S.



    Check here to read the comparison between the 986 MY04 vs the 987 MY 05 in the dealer product information. Its in chapter 1 and shows a table comparing the 986 and 987.

    You'll see that there was no difference in the suspension setup between the 986 and 986S unless you ordered the sports suspension and that there are improvements in the 987 standard suspension but no difference between the 987 and 987S unless you order PASM, which is available on both cars.

    http://www.renntech.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=3443

    Cheers,

    JZ


    I don't think you're interpreting the info correctly. They both have "basic" set up, according to the chart, but I'm under the impression that the suspension (springs and shocks) was calibrated a little stiffer on the S. The 030 set up on the 986 and 986S were different from each other too. All of the part numbers are different.



    Where do you get your info from? Nowhere in ANY of the ltierature I have read does it say that the S 'handles' better than the 2.7 due to uprated suspension. That is a complete fallacy. It doesnn't mention it in any brochure, info pack or indeed from any Porsche track day instructor that I had a chat with last month. Both cars (987) are the same chassis set up unless PASM is specced. Apart from cosmetic internal and external differences, the mechanical differences of the 987 and 987S are limited to the engine and exhaust system and the brakes. The S brakes are bigger and have a bigger brake booster. There is no difference on the chassis setup in any UK spec literature I have read.

    I quote from the UK brochure,

    " Both new Boxster models have a modified version of our proven McPherson-type suspension. All four corners have a coil-over strut which is located by a system of transverse links. The axle kinematics have been further enhanced and a wider wheel track introduced. The rear axle subsystem on both models is a completely new development. Lightweight materials are used throughout the chassis, particularly on the unsprung masses. Virtually all moving parts in the axle assembley are made from light yet robust aluminium.

    The mid engined layout combines with the advanced chassis engineering to minimise pitch and roll The steering system uses a new gear assembley and variable steering ratio to achieve greater immediacy and precision of response as well as excellent feedback from the road. Lane change manoeuvers are smooth and secure, even when travelling at high speed.......straight line stability is equally impressive, as on every Porsche vehicle."

    All the usual Porsche guff, but no where in the text does it mention that the suspension setup on the S is different or 'better' than the 2.7

    Porsche are famous for using the same parts where possible to maximise profit andminimise cost. What may be the case for your 986, is not the case for the 987.

    Cheers,

    JZ

    From the parts department at the Porsche dealership. The part numbers for springs, shocks, swaybars, etc. for the 987 are different from the part numbers on the same parts in a 987S. Is that a good enough source for you?

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:

    No 987 S , or non S, tail wind or on a steam catapult, will accellerate as fast as a late 993 after 100mph. A 987S might be even up to 120 mph, but after that its all over. Boxsters are quick to 60, newer ones quick to 100, but after that they are a yawn.

    993 - 282 hp
    987S - 280 hp
    weight advantage - 987S ; you do the math..... or look it up Very comparable as far as I've read Maybe you're right after 100 mph, but who does that everyday and keep their license?

    Cheers

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    Louis (Toronto) said:
    Quote:
    JimFlat6 said:

    No 987 S , or non S, tail wind or on a steam catapult, will accellerate as fast as a late 993 after 100mph. A 987S might be even up to 120 mph, but after that its all over. Boxsters are quick to 60, newer ones quick to 100, but after that they are a yawn.

    993 - 282 hp
    987S - 280 hp
    weight advantage - 987S ; you do the math..... or look it up Very comparable as far as I've read Maybe you're right after 100 mph, but who does that everyday and keep their license?

    Cheers



    Louis, You have flunked sporstcar 101. Go back and do the math on the gear ratios.

    987's lack their own perfectly matched gear ratios for performance like 911s are blessed with. They are slightly improved over a 986 but by just a little. The Cayman will use the same ratios as the 987 and its barely quicker than a 987S. If the Cayman had its own specific gears tuned to its engine output it would be a diabolical sports car.

    Porsche does this for three reasons; so Boxsters will not be compete with 91ls, for fuel economy and for top speed.
    (no matter how long it takes for it to get there!) You
    would probably be happy to lose 5-7 mph on claimed top
    speed and 1 to 2 mpg if Porsche offered a optional gearbox ratio package that gave you better accelleration, but then it would probably as quick to 120mph as a 997 and we cant have that happen!

    986 six speeds had the exact same gear ratios as the 996s had, but with out the 996s torque and hp to use them. They
    did that purely to save money and keep the cars way slower than a 996.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Ok you win, I flunked sportscar 101

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    L0uis, You are almost right. The 993 to 60 is slightly slower than a 987S.

    Its in 5 and 6th gears where Boxsters drop behind one.
    987s seem perfectly geared in 1-4.

    Have heart! A Nitrous tank and a extended warranty
    can solve all gearing issues!

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    When I had my 99 986 I drove the 986S in both 01 and 03 and the engine upgrade was not sufficient to justify the cost. Although the S had more "go" the chasis/ride was essentially the same. It's always nice to get as much HP as the wallet will allow, and this is true at whatever rung of the ladder you happen to be on. I can certainly appreciate the desire to more generously "spec" a 987 in favor of a no-option 987S, although this was much more compelling with the 986 series due to the very "low end" standard interior. As I said in another posting, the current 987 base (45K USD) is an enormous value when directly compared with a 1997 986 (39K USD) on any basis of comparison. It's pointless to compare the 987 and 997 as currently produced since it's apples to oranges. The Boxster experience is more of a Zen harmony and satisfaction with the car as it does its business with poise and aplomb. The 911 is about provoking it's dynamics so that they can be mastered and manipulated (perhaps dominated, or does that enter an area best left unexplored???). Two very different animals offering different experiences. Best left to that.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Get the car and engine that you will really use and save your money. It may be more fun to flog a 5spd 2.7 Boxster
    around town and wring the last bit of juice out of it.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    From the parts department at the Porsche dealership. The part numbers for springs, shocks, swaybars, etc. for the 987 are different from the part numbers on the same parts in a 987S. Is that a good enough source for you?



    Still a bollox argument. The front grill vents are a differnt part number from the 2.7 to the 3.2. Noesn't mean they let air past them any better.

    Same for the intrument binnacle. A differnt part number for the 2.7 to the 3.2, but does it ake you read the intruments any faster. No.

    Instead of quoting part numbers, show me where Porsche state that the chassic/suspension setup is firmer, more sporty and 'better'an the 3.2 than the 2.7.

    JZ

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Cheers for the debate,



    I agree that there's not a 'whole world' of difference between the two, as an overall package. Both are a good choice. Sorry for being pedantic on the comparison you were trying to draw. I think the fairest thing to say between the 2.7 and 3.2 is that they are 'different', not just in the performance figures, but in the personality of the engine. You have to drive both to decide which one you prefer. Many people prefer the 3.2, for largely emotive reasons. As the time of my order (early on) there wasn't a 2.7 manual to drive, so I got seduced by the 3.2 in comparison to the 2.7 tip.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    From the parts department at the Porsche dealership. The part numbers for springs, shocks, swaybars, etc. for the 987 are different from the part numbers on the same parts in a 987S. Is that a good enough source for you?



    Still a bollox argument. The front grill vents are a differnt part number from the 2.7 to the 3.2. Noesn't mean they let air past them any better.

    Same for the intrument binnacle. A differnt part number for the 2.7 to the 3.2, but does it ake you read the intruments any faster. No.

    Instead of quoting part numbers, show me where Porsche state that the chassic/suspension setup is firmer, more sporty and 'better'an the 3.2 than the 2.7.

    JZ

    That would seem to contradict your previous post in this thread: "Porsche are famous for using the same parts where possible to maximise profit andminimise cost. What may be the case for your 986, is not the case for the 987."
    I don't care if Porsche prints it or not. The part numbers are different because the springs and shocks are stiffer, the swaybars are thicker, etc. Everyone in the sales, service and parts department of the largest Porsche dealership in the world has told me that the 987S suspension is firmer and, as a result, it handles better than a 987. No offense intended but, since I don't know your credentials, I'll trust them. That it isn't mentioned in the literature doesn't convince me. Have you found anything that says the 987 handles as well as the 987S? That would be better proof that saying you can't find anything that says their different.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    I haven't cross-examined my OPC, but...

    I'd have thought it unlikely that Porsche would go to all the trouble to mess about with the suspension between the two cars and then not shout about it in the brochures!

    And the same item could have two-different part numbers because of production management reasons (Just-in-time ordering and so on) rather than for any physical difference.

    I don't know for certain, but it's certainly not worth jumping to conclusions and then having a slanging match over it.

    Can someone a little closer to Porsche (RC?) please sort this one out?

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    In test done by Road & Track magazine, the S did better on the skid pad and the slalom test than the plain model equipped with the same size wheels and tires. For that to happen without different suspension parts is even less likely than Porsche making the S handle better but not shouting about it.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Can you give more info on the above Road and Track tests?
    Can't find into on their website.
    Was it a marked difference?
    Were they done back-to-back on the same day by the same driver?
    did the tyres have the same mileage on them? (ie had they both run in to the same extent?)

    I'm not saying you're wrong, I'm saying that it's not quite conclusive.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    I'm away for the weekend and don't have the info with me. They were both new cars with minimal mileage. The differences were signifigant. I can't understand why so many guys on this board find it hard to imagine that they use stiffer springs, shocks and sway bars on the higher performance model. All anyone says to contradict me is that they can't find where Porsche says the S handles better. Of course, no one is able to find where Porsche says they handle the same. Tomorrow, when the Porsche dealers are open and you can hear it from the horse's mouth, I expect all of you doubters to say, "Gee, you're right. I never knew that" right here.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    I'm away for the weekend and don't have the info with me. They were both new cars with minimal mileage. The differences were signifigant. I can't understand why so many guys on this board find it hard to imagine that they use stiffer springs, shocks and sway bars on the higher performance model. All anyone says to contradict me is that they can't find where Porsche says the S handles better. Of course, no one is able to find where Porsche says they handle the same. Tomorrow, when the Porsche dealers are open and you can hear it from the horse's mouth, I expect all of you doubters to say, "Gee, you're right. I never knew that" right here.



    I've been keeping an eye on this tread and it's not that I doubt you but usually when Porsche makes upgrades to their cars, EVEN minor upgrades like S vs Non-S, they tend jump all over the opportunity to take Marketing advantage of it and will usually be overly verbose in their technical writeups on the differences. If what you say ends up being true, it's surpising that they didn't do it this time. I guess we'll see.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    From the parts department at the Porsche dealership. The part numbers for springs, shocks, swaybars, etc. for the 987 are different from the part numbers on the same parts in a 987S. Is that a good enough source for you?



    Still a bollox argument. The front grill vents are a differnt part number from the 2.7 to the 3.2. Noesn't mean they let air past them any better.

    Same for the intrument binnacle. A differnt part number for the 2.7 to the 3.2, but does it ake you read the intruments any faster. No.

    Instead of quoting part numbers, show me where Porsche state that the chassic/suspension setup is firmer, more sporty and 'better'an the 3.2 than the 2.7.

    JZ

    That would seem to contradict your previous post in this thread: "Porsche are famous for using the same parts where possible to maximise profit andminimise cost. What may be the case for your 986, is not the case for the 987."
    I don't care if Porsche prints it or not. The part numbers are different because the springs and shocks are stiffer, the swaybars are thicker, etc. Everyone in the sales, service and parts department of the largest Porsche dealership in the world has told me that the 987S suspension is firmer and, as a result, it handles better than a 987. No offense intended but, since I don't know your credentials, I'll trust them. That it isn't mentioned in the literature doesn't convince me. Have you found anything that says the 987 handles as well as the 987S? That would be better proof that saying you can't find anything that says their different.



    This is not a convinving argument. Stating that an American dealership ''says so'', doesn't cut it for me at all. OPC's have a habit of blowing out a lot of smoke to keep people happy. I'll stick to the OFFICIAL porsche literature that states that no such differential exists.

    Now, I asked you to prove it. You can't, so I have to say, until you can show me Porsche documantation that says the S has an uprated chassis, then I have to say, I think you are full of it.......

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Well, think about it. The "S" is slightly heavier than the base so the suspension setup has to be a tad firmer to compensate for the weight difference, no? So I guess both arguments can be correct but the added firmness of the suspension may be only to compensate for the weight difference; because probably if there was a huge difference Porsche would surely jump all over it in terms of marketing, but don't quote me on it

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    Louis (Toronto) said:
    Well, think about it. The "S" is slightly heavier than the base so the suspension setup has to be a tad firmer to compensate for the weight difference, no?


    Nice theory. However consider if you consider the weights for the tip and manual versions of each model:

    2.7 manual 1295kg
    3.2 manual 1345kg
    2.7 tip 1355kg
    3.2 tip 1385kg

    Don't think they'd have four different variations of suspension component. There's only a 90kg difference between the lightest and heaviest. There's a 64kg(ish) difference in a car with a full tank and an empty tank!

    Nice theory though!

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    It's interesting that you guys think the suspension is different because of the weight but not sufficiently different to make it handle better. I just got back from the dealership again. The binnacles are the same unless you compare different colors or you compare left hand drive to right hand drive. The front air grills on a 987 are black and the front air grills on a 987S are titanium. So sorry if you think a black part and a titanium part should have the same part number if they let in the same amount of air. The sway bars, springs and shocks are upgraded on the S. If you get a 987 with 6 speed, you get the S swaybar. No one has shown me any evidence, no less any convincing evidence, that Porsche says the suspension isn't stiffer on an S. Also, no one has shown me any evidence that Porsche claims the 987 handles as well as the 987S. Until you do, JZ, I'll stand by my comments. The S handles better. Period.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    The front air grills on a 987 are black and the front air grills on a 987S are titanium. So sorry if you think a black part and a titanium part should have the same part number if they let in the same amount of air.



    Read what I wrote.

    I clearly stated in that DESPITE the different part numbers for the grills, they let in the same amount of air.

    Perhaps your OPC feels the need to placate you with a little ego massage. But I guess seeing as they are the BIGGEST OPC in the world, they would know better than Porsche.

    Your argument has no substance. Neither does your logic.

    There is no difference in chassis setup between the 987's.
    You sink your argument quicker than a Greek ferry by saying that the part numbers on a 2.7 with a 6-speed manual are different.

    Can I introduce you to the Sprt package for the 2.7. This includes a new invention for the Boxster called PASM. It only comes on the 2.7 with a 6-speed manual.

    I think you need to check your facts, AND deal with your inability to read.

    JZ

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    The front air grills on a 987 are black and the front air grills on a 987S are titanium. So sorry if you think a black part and a titanium part should have the same part number if they let in the same amount of air.



    Read what I wrote.

    I clearly stated in that DESPITE the different part numbers for the grills, they let in the same amount of air. They have different part numbers because they're of differing colors. The springs are the same color. They have different part numbers because they're firmer on the S. The shocks are the same color. They're stiffer on the S. The swaybars are the same color but they're firmer on the S. Did you want to take a wild stab at why they have different part numbers if the components all have the same values?

    Perhaps your OPC feels the need to placate you with a little ego massage. But I guess seeing as they are the BIGGEST OPC in the world, they would know better than Porsche. I drive a plain 986. Telling me an S handles better would placate me how? Sounds like someone's trying to placate you since you're the one that thinks they're the same.

    Your argument has no substance. Neither does your logic. Maybe you don't like my reasoning but my facts are 100% accurate.

    There is no difference in chassis setup between the 987's.
    You sink your argument quicker than a Greek ferry by saying that the part numbers on a 2.7 with a 6-speed manual are different. I think it strengthens my argument. If you think otherwise I'd suggest you're the chap who's lacking of logic. The 6 speed 987 with PASM uses the S swaybar. It's thicker than the one on a 5 speed 987.

    Can I introduce you to the Sprt package for the 2.7. This includes a new invention for the Boxster called PASM. It only comes on the 2.7 with a 6-speed manual. Not in the states! You can get PASM on a 5 speed 987 here.

    I think you need to check your facts, AND deal with your inability to read. JZ

    I've checked my facts. Please post a copy of the Porsche literature that says a 987 handles as well as a 987S or that the values for the springs and shock specs are the same or even that the swaybars are the same stiffness.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Quote:
    LowPolarMoment said:
    The front air grills on a 987 are black and the front air grills on a 987S are titanium. So sorry if you think a black part and a titanium part should have the same part number if they let in the same amount of air.



    Read what I wrote.

    I clearly stated in that DESPITE the different part numbers for the grills, they let in the same amount of air. They have different part numbers because they're of differing colors. The springs are the same color. They have different part numbers because they're firmer on the S. The shocks are the same color. They're stiffer on the S. The swaybars are the same color but they're firmer on the S. Did you want to take a wild stab at why they have different part numbers if the components all have the same values?

    Perhaps your OPC feels the need to placate you with a little ego massage. But I guess seeing as they are the BIGGEST OPC in the world, they would know better than Porsche. I drive a plain 986. Telling me an S handles better would placate me how? Sounds like someone's trying to placate you since you're the one that thinks they're the same.

    Your argument has no substance. Neither does your logic. Maybe you don't like my reasoning but my facts are 100% accurate.

    There is no difference in chassis setup between the 987's.
    You sink your argument quicker than a Greek ferry by saying that the part numbers on a 2.7 with a 6-speed manual are different. I think it strengthens my argument. If you think otherwise I'd suggest you're the chap who's lacking of logic. The 6 speed 987 with PASM uses the S swaybar. It's thicker than the one on a 5 speed 987.

    Can I introduce you to the Sprt package for the 2.7. This includes a new invention for the Boxster called PASM. It only comes on the 2.7 with a 6-speed manual. Not in the states! You can get PASM on a 5 speed 987 here.

    I think you need to check your facts, AND deal with your inability to read. JZ

    I've checked my facts. Please post a copy of the Porsche literature that says a 987 handles as well as a 987S or that the values for the springs and shock specs are the same or even that the swaybars are the same stiffness.



    This is truely comical!!

    Does it say on the parts box,

    "ATTENTION FOR THICK AMERICANS"

    WARNING

    The suspension parts in this box will severly improve your handling. As everything in your country is based on litigation, perhaps you should think twice about installing this part. IT is SIGNFICANTLY BETTER than the suspension on the 987 2.7 Porsche Boxster, and may cause you wide arsed Americans to go off the side of the road into some ditch due to the 'never seen before' ability of a car to go around a corner'' WARNING


    WHERE WHERE WHERE (apart from in your head) does it say anywhere in the WORLD that the S handles better than the 2.7?

    You are consistently FAILING to prove your point. Quoting me part number differences proves nothing. Are the springs 'stiffer' because you have squeezed them yourself??

    Wake up and smell the European coffee. There is no chassis difference. You are the ONLY person on this board who believes this. Just give it up and lead your country by example and admit you are wrong???

    Anyway, when (when really) did America know ANYTHING about sports car handling. I'm suprised you even need a car that goes round corners at anything over 2 miles per hour.

    I've got to stop, my ribs are hurting too much.........

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Look, you two - you're not doing the reputation of the board much good! Stop bickering right now!

    I think a 3rd party should settle this dispute. Any takers?

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Look, you two - you're not doing the reputation of the board much good! Stop bickering right now!

    I think a 3rd party should settle this dispute. Any takers?



    Wtsnet! YOU pouring oil on troubled waters ? Are you feeling well or going down with something serious?

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    dreamcar said:Wtsnet! YOU pouring oil on troubled waters ? Are you feeling well or going down with something serious?


    It wasn't me, it was my non-evil twin.

    Perhaps a pistol each, 10 paces, turn and fire? I'll get the popcorn.

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Quote:
    dreamcar said:Wtsnet! YOU pouring oil on troubled waters ? Are you feeling well or going down with something serious?


    It wasn't me, it was my non-evil twin.

    Perhaps a pistol each, 10 paces, turn and fire? I'll get the popcorn.



    As enjoyable as that would be, I think Poindexter over there would win as 'ammo is in the blood' a lot of Americans.

    I would settle for an answer from someone who has the facts!!

    Cheers,

    JZ

    Re: 987 boxster vs 987 boxster S

    Quote:
    JZ said:
    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Quote:
    dreamcar said:Wtsnet! YOU pouring oil on troubled waters ? Are you feeling well or going down with something serious?


    It wasn't me, it was my non-evil twin.

    Perhaps a pistol each, 10 paces, turn and fire? I'll get the popcorn.



    As enjoyable as that would be, I think Poindexter over there would win as 'ammo is in the blood' a lot of Americans.

    I would settle for an answer from someone who has the facts!!

    Cheers,

    JZ



    I love how Europeans always resort to bashing Americans

     
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