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    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    GR:
     

    Principally the steering which is totally numb on all the 981/991 I have driven.  The turn and dry grip are amazing but in all my test drives, there is little to no sense of the loads building or falling away so its hard to judge how much grip you actually have.  Occasionally the steering gives you something but its very artificial. 

    In patchy damp conditions the steering completely masks whether its dry and grippy or a slippery damp surface so there is no sense of transition and how hard you can push.  I actually found it alarming because the car just starts sliding with no warning. 

    It might well be better on smooth tarmac but we don't  have any of that in the UK.

    Please define "numb". All 981/991 I drove lately felt quite nimble/direct (steering). Not race car direct but still. Smiley

    The "plus" steering is usually a culprit at lower speeds but if you drive the car hard and fast (Sport Plus), the steering is amazing. Even that "artificial" feel of the steering on early 991 is gone completely.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Once you drive the car more than an hour or a day, you'll get used to it and start "reading" the information that's coming towards you. No, it is not as good as a hydraulic powersteering and it will never be, but it's by far better than any other electromechanical power steering i've driven. The 981 is better than the 991 carrera. The GT3 and Turbo will be better than the 981.

    The problem is that most journalists start about it and everybody that reads those comments begins with a mindset that the steering feeling is bad, which is not true at all. Those journalists only drive the cars for a limited time. Once you start living with a car, you learn how a car really is. 

    just get used to the fact that electromechanical power steering is here to stay. Hydraulic systems won't come back in these cars, just like the manual will eventually be gone. 

    Those people that are not willing to adapt to newer systems, should go buy an older car...  This also goes for myself. When the time arrives that a 911 gets hybrid technology, it's over for me. i'm not willing to take that step (yet), so I will drive older cars untill the time has come that I can't refuse anymore. Want real good steering feel, get a 997... Simple as that.


    --

    I'm just another female petrolhead :)

     


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    I've driven the cars numerous times and sometimes over several days so my view is more than just a first impression.  But I concede you only get to know a car with months of driving.

    For me numb means no sense weight to the steering in proportion to the load you are putting on the front tyres.  And I can't say I found things improve with speed.  In fact at fast road speeds for the UK, I would say its actually worse.   The steering is certainly accurate in terms of placement and the way the cars turns in is superb but its simply your input with no sense from the steering of how the car is responding.   So I agree the front is nimble but  the longer wheelbase negates that in terms of overall nimbleness or agility if you  prefer.  

    The 981 Cayman has been the best for steering so far but its nowhere near what I expect of a sports car.  

     

     

     

     


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    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    RC:

    The M3 has a reputation in the sports car world but with the introduction of the V8, the car got heavier and less sports car like in my opinion. Hopefully the new M4 will be different but looking at the M5 for example, I doubt it.

    I worry about this too and is the reason I am interested to see what they do with the upcoming M2 Coupe.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    GR:

    The 981 Cayman has been the best for steering so far but its nowhere near what I expect of a sports car.  

     

    I am sorry to say that I agree with respect to the new electric steering Porsches.  I hope this story has changed with the GT3 and that this improvement will filter through the line of models.


    --

    73 Carrera RS 2.7 Carbon Fiber replica (1,890 lbs), 06 EVO9 with track mods. Former: 73 911S, Two 951S's, 996 C2, 993 C2, 98 Ferrari 550


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

     

    I'm no racing driver, however I have owned 993, 986, 996, 997 & now 991. In terms of everyday driving, I find that it's just as easy to predict the limits of grip in my current car as was the 997. The composure of the car is simply streets ahead of 997 - which was better than 996. I remember getting into trouble a few times in my 993. Perhaps I'm just getting older, but I miss absolutely nothing about my old manual 997 and given the driving I do (no track stuff) find it quite tricky to pinpoint any area where the 991 feels inert or numb when in sport (or sport plus) mode. I would conceed it to be perceptively underwhelming once sport is switched off though.

     


    --

    991 (what a car!) XC90 - Black/Black 2 kids, 1 dog


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    bridggar:

     

    I'm no racing driver, however I have owned 993, 986, 996, 997 & now 991. In terms of everyday driving, I find that it's just as easy to predict the limits of grip in my current car as was the 997. The composure of the car is simply streets ahead of 997 - which was better than 996. I remember getting into trouble a few times in my 993. Perhaps I'm just getting older, but I miss absolutely nothing about my old manual 997 and given the driving I do (no track stuff) find it quite tricky to pinpoint any area where the 991 feels inert or numb when in sport (or sport plus) mode. I would conceed it to be perceptively underwhelming once sport is switched off though.

     

    The tires always play a huge role in driving feel...

    The current 991 steering setup is quite good in my opinion, it has been worse in the beginning. The advantage is that everything can be changed by software, so... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    SmileyRC:
    MKSGR:
    JimFlat6:

    Suzy, I said the 991 has too much GT car in its heart now and that the M has more sports car than sedan in its heart. The 991 is a actual sports car that needs more motor.

    The 991 has a torque deficit, especially at its price. And a Burmeister sound system will not make it quicker on straights on a track over a new M4. Physics is physics!

    Have you ever driven an M3, BTW? Your arguments sound like you never did. I hate the M3 (of course, I never drove the new M3/M4). We had one for 3 years. This car was really a poor compromise. Now compare this with the driving pleasure in a 991/991s - two different worlds, really. You cannot even compare the feel behind the wheel of these cars Smiley

    Markus, I fully agree with you. We owned a M3 Cab with DKG and it never felt like a sports car. Also had the Coupe as a loaner a couple of times, I liked the C63 AMG Coupe PP I had much more.

    The M3 has a reputation in the sports car world but with the introduction of the V8, the car got heavier and less sports car like in my opinion. Hopefully the new M4 will be different but looking at the M5 for example, I doubt it.

    Smiley Porsche rules Smiley


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    GR:
    reginos:

    How do you define "lack of involvement"?

    Do you mean it is not hard work to drive fast, or something else?

    Principally the steering which is totally numb on all the 981/991 I have driven.  The turn and dry grip are amazing but in all my test drives, there is little to no sense of the loads building or falling away so its hard to judge how much grip you actually have.  Occasionally the steering gives you something but its very artificial. 

    In patchy damp conditions the steering completely masks whether its dry and grippy or a slippery damp surface so there is no sense of transition and how hard you can push.  I actually found it alarming because the car just starts sliding with no warning. 

    It might well be better on smooth tarmac but we don't  have any of that in the UK.

    The steering in the 991 might be not as good as in the 997 - however, I don't know another brand with such good steering... I recently learned (as RC has posted many times, if I am not wrong) that this special steering option Porsche offers as an option spoils steering feel - if you order the cars without that option the steering feels very good still Smiley


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    GR:

     

    For me numb means no sense weight to the steering in proportion to the load you are putting on the front tyres.  

     

     

     

     

    To get the optimum involvement you need to drive the pre-1989 Porsche models without power steering. From that time on things got more and more synthetic from model to model. Yet, Porsche offers the most refined and sensitive steering still. Driving those old cars without power steering highlights what we lost with all these technological refinements. But then, all these technological refinements make these modern cars so quick. For example, rear wheel steering would be impossible without the new steering concept Smiley


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    I've been driving Porsches for 18 years now, having owned a 87 911, a 964, two 986s and a 987 so I am well aware of how the steering has evolved.  If I'm honest, I think the 986 was the best compromise between everday usability and feel, even if the older systems are more fun.  The 987 steering is on the cusp for me - feel is OK but I prefer something more "talkative".   

    Perhaps I am in a minority here on Rennteam but I would happiliy trade some of the extra speed of the 981/991 for a less aloof driving experience.  To drive my 987 anywhere near its limits in 3rd or 4th is socially unacceptable in the UK.  The limits in 5th are go to jail.   And if I wanted a seriously fast track car, I would have a Radical or similar


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    A video of DTM drivers testing it on the Ring:  http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-video/dtm-racers-test-bmw-m3-and-m4-nurburgring

    Keep in mind that they are all BMW employess :)

    The car itself sounds not very amazing from what can be heard in the video.


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Some first hand impressions here:  http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/new-cars/first-ride-bmw-m4-prototype

     


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    omSilver:

    Some first hand impressions here:  http://www.autocar.co.uk/blogs/new-cars/first-ride-bmw-m4-prototype

     

    Sounds pretty depressing....)-:


    --

    turbolite


    Re: Specs Revealed for New M3/M4

    Large volume manufacturers really seem to have issues with the proper sound for their cars. Look how well Ferrari, Maserati, Aston Martin and McLaren are doing their jobs, even Lamborghini (haven't really heard the Cabrera yet but I assume). I guess those noise level restrictions being tougher and tougher are a huge burden for sports car manufacturers.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S (Oct. 5th 2013), Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
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