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    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I just drove a 981 for a day as a loaner while my Panamera was being serviced.  The 981 had PDK and I was interested to see how it drove.

    I didn't like it at first, but this had much more to do with the base 981 engine power (meager).  After I selected Sport mode, I was very impressed with how the 981 PDK functions -- extremely short shift intervals, auto-rev-matching during  down shifts, always seeming to be in the correct gear, etc.  This transmission is WAY better than my last exposure to sports car Tiptronic in my long-gone 996TT.

    If PDK-S in the 991 GT3 is truly a leap forward in sport driving from the 981 transmission, I'll simply be in love!!!!

    BTW, the 981 PDK is nothing like the PDK in my Panamera Turbo.  Different market expectations make for different tuning, I guess.


    --

    Mike

    Carrera GT + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S + Panamera Turbo +  BMW Z8 + BMW 3.0 CSi + Bentley Arnage T + GT3 RS 4.0


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    PDK-S should be very smart market product. The best one, I think


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    nberry:

    Wasn't the reason for so many manual in European cars in the past because the cost of fuel? At that time it was more economical to run a car using a manual. Today I don't believe that is the case.

    Yes. Automatic transmissions always had the reputation of eating too much fuel and not being sporty. I guess everyone knows by now that things have changed a lot compared to the old auto trannies back in the days. Smiley

    Actually, I know many drivers who went for manual on regular cars because of option cost for the auto tranny, not because of fuel consumption or not being sporty enough. Times have changed but money is still an issue.

    In the US, many drivers carry a lot of pride in driving stick because not everybody can do that but in Europe, every idiot  Smiley can drive stick, so driving manual is a preference but not really something someone would be proud of.

    In my opinion, driving manual has become a personal preference, like choosing a certain rim design or a leather color. The car needs to be fun and if some people think it is fun by driving stick, so be it. I have no problem with that.

    Unfortunately car manufacturers have to look out for their typical customers and truth is, most sports cars aren't available with manual anymore. Why choose manual if you can actually have the best from both worlds (manual and auto in one transmission)?

    Still: There are rumors that Porsche could offer an optional manual gearbox for the next 991 GT3 RS, apparently they are currently assessing the feedback from the 991 GT3 PDK presentation.

    One tends to look at potential future scenarios and outcomes.  I've posted before that much of the move away from manuals, besides capturing the emerging video game/F1 wannabe set, is because of more stringent regulations for emissions, and correspondingly, fuel economy standards.  These, of course, have the potential for unintended consequences in the future, and down-the-road.  

    The integration of systems, as someone mentioned earlier, can lead to very compromised, in the spectrum of performance cars, vehicles as already witnessed with the Nissan GT-R in its home market.  The GT-R, for the uninitiated, has a speed limiter set according to car's location, as determined by the GPS system.  Now consider the current political move to eliminate the unlimited sections of the autobahn.  It's quite conceivable that within a few years, the top speed, in most circumstances, will be governed, and dictated, by law and software control.  Once this happens, there is less perceived need for higher performance vehicles...

    For the skeptics, recall that the French auto industry produced some of the most desirable luxury cars, pre-World War II.  After the war, the government regulated the auto industry to limit production of luxury automobiles.  Look where the French automakers are today.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Given the considerable debate around the impact of new technologies on cars and driving, you might be interested in this survey put together for a discussion at the RAC in London...

    1368302387614RAC-Driver-Survey_Rennteam.jpg

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    This survey is crap. Cars from different categories and price ranges...this can't work. Or do you really think someone is dumb enough to choose the Toyota GT86 over the Carrera GT for example.

    I would love to drive all of them (well, maybe minus the GT86 indecision) but this doesn't say anything.
     

    The question should rather be: Which car do you choose if you can choose only once and have to drive this car for the rest of your life? As your ONLY car.

    I would probably choose the Bugatti Veyron. wink


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    I would probably choose the Bugatti Veyron. wink

    Ok, so I take you would prefer to drive a Bugatti Veyron than a McLaren F1.

    The idea of the RAC driver survey was to choose one car between A and B for each of the (1) to (15) listed.

    For example, under (1) would you prefer to drive a BMW 1M or Audi RS3? Or under (8) would you prefer to drive a Carrera GT or McLaren 12C? Or under (15) would you prefer to drive a 997 GT3 RS 4.0 or a 991 GT3 PDK.

    One example of a set of preferences in underlined bold...

       (1)    BMW 1M                              vs      Audi RS3
       (2)    Porsche 993 RS                vs      BMW M6
       (3)    Toyota GT86                       vs      Audi TT RS
       (4)    Porsche Cayman R          vs      Porsche 991 Carrera PDK
       (5)    Ferrari 250 GTO                 vs      Aston Martin One-77
       (6)    Porsche 959                        vs     Mercedes AMG SLS
       (7)    Ferrari F40                            vs     Ferrari 458 Italia
       (8)    Porsche Carrera GT          vs     McLaren MP4-12C
       (9)    Ferrari 288 GTO                  vs     Ferrari California
     (10)    Porsche 996 GT3 RS          vs     BMW M3 GTS
     (11)    Lexus LFA                            vs     Nissan GT-R
     (12)    Porsche 993 Turbo S         vs     Porsche 997 Turbo S
     (13)    Pagani Zonda 760 LH         vs     Pagani Huayra
     (14)    McLaren F1                           vs     Bugatti Veyron
     (15)    Porsche 997 GT3 RS 4.0    vs    Porsche 991 GT3 PDK

    NB: Total Survey Score = 17

    It seems that in each case, the car in Portfolio B includes more advanced technology and is considered “faster”...

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    My score is 18


    --

    Gen II Cayman S


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    CGX car nut:
    RC:
    nberry:

    Wasn't the reason for so many manual in European cars in the past because the cost of fuel? At that time it was more economical to run a car using a manual. Today I don't believe that is the case.

    Yes. Automatic transmissions always had the reputation of eating too much fuel and not being sporty. I guess everyone knows by now that things have changed a lot compared to the old auto trannies back in the days. Smiley

    Actually, I know many drivers who went for manual on regular cars because of option cost for the auto tranny, not because of fuel consumption or not being sporty enough. Times have changed but money is still an issue.

    In the US, many drivers carry a lot of pride in driving stick because not everybody can do that but in Europe, every idiot  Smiley can drive stick, so driving manual is a preference but not really something someone would be proud of.

    In my opinion, driving manual has become a personal preference, like choosing a certain rim design or a leather color. The car needs to be fun and if some people think it is fun by driving stick, so be it. I have no problem with that.

    Unfortunately car manufacturers have to look out for their typical customers and truth is, most sports cars aren't available with manual anymore. Why choose manual if you can actually have the best from both worlds (manual and auto in one transmission)?

    Still: There are rumors that Porsche could offer an optional manual gearbox for the next 991 GT3 RS, apparently they are currently assessing the feedback from the 991 GT3 PDK presentation.

    One tends to look at potential future scenarios and outcomes.  I've posted before that much of the move away from manuals, besides capturing the emerging video game/F1 wannabe set, is because of more stringent regulations for emissions, and correspondingly, fuel economy standards.  These, of course, have the potential for unintended consequences in the future, and down-the-road.  

    The integration of systems, as someone mentioned earlier, can lead to very compromised, in the spectrum of performance cars, vehicles as already witnessed with the Nissan GT-R in its home market.  The GT-R, for the uninitiated, has a speed limiter set according to car's location, as determined by the GPS system.  Now consider the current political move to eliminate the unlimited sections of the autobahn.  It's quite conceivable that within a few years, the top speed, in most circumstances, will be governed, and dictated, by law and software control.  Once this happens, there is less perceived need for higher performance vehicles...

    For the skeptics, recall that the French auto industry produced some of the most desirable luxury cars, pre-World War II.  After the war, the government regulated the auto industry to limit production of luxury automobiles.  Look where the French automakers are today.

    ++++++++++++++++++++

    A side note to the GT3 subject.

    The French auto industry produced the most desirable luxury cars since the inception of the automobile until the 1950’s.

    But they were “specialists”, crafting tailor-made cars for what would be now the very rich (look how much Ferrari charged Eric Clapton recently).  After WWII, Europe being in ruins, these craftsmen declined and disappeared along with the entire segment they were addressing.

    However, the mass-production of vehicles developed.

    Unfortunately, the French auto industry was plagued by communists:  Renault, the biggest player at the time if I am not wrong, was nationalized and run directly by the government – in fact communist-led unions.  Officially, Renault was nationalized as a “punishment” for its founder’s collaboration with the Nazis during WWII.  Besides the historical argument (whether or not he collaborated), which is debated by specialists, it is interesting to note that the taking by the government was probably illegal as the founder was dead at the time of the taking (beaten and left dead during imprisonment in Paris – absent a court decision -- while he had a severe medical condition) and as no proper compensation was paid to the Renault family.  If the heirs manage to get the best lawyers around, they have a shot at claiming the company back!

    At about the same time, the industry was also hurt by the loss of its genious, Andre Citroen.  For perspective and on a much smaller scale, try and imagine what Porsche would have been without Porsche.

    Current French situation?  I would say 50% incompetent management and 50% crappy politicians who have consistently been “anti-auto” for the last decades.  For example, German Porsche sales are to companies.  In France, registration of a 991 GT3, for example, would cost about 2,000 euros in registration taxes, plus a 6,000 euro CO2-based surtax, plus the annual tax on companies owning vehicles in the region of 8,000 euros.  Also, VAT is not deductible on cars.  Therefore, during the year of purchase of the car, the company would pay about 41kE in taxes (assuming a purchase price of 150kE VAT included).  Not good!

    I forgot to mention that the French government is very generous and allows for a tax-deductible annual depreciation on the car. You would guess that the depreciation is based on the purchase price … but you would be wrong.  The basis is capped to about 9,000 euros, meaning an annual tax-deductible allowance of about 1.8k euros, i.e., 1.2% of the purchase price!  Since you depreciate the car over five years, that mean a total tax-deduction of 6%!

    Depressing but true. Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    PBS2010: Regulation is another form of nationalization. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Speculation about the GT2:

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-911-gt2-turbo-get-552bhp


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Boxster Coupe GTS:
    RC:

    I would probably choose the Bugatti Veyron. wink

    Ok, so I take you would prefer to drive a Bugatti Veyron than a McLaren F1.

    Yes. If I had to choose one car from all the cars on the list, it would be the Bugatti.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    Speculation about the GT2:

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-911-gt2-turbo-get-552bhp

    Christian, could GT2 be AWD?))) its really car to wait - synergy of Turbo S and GT3! Agree?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    artur777:
    reginos:

    Speculation about the GT2:

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-911-gt2-turbo-get-552bhp

    Christian, could GT2 be AWD?))) its really car to wait - synergy of Turbo S and GT3! Agree?

    I'm not sure Porsche would take the risk but to be honest, I think a GT2 with AWD and the typical 100kg or so weight reduction vs. the 991 Turbo S, would sell pretty well. Price tag would be over 250k EUR though (I guess), so the customer pool would be limited. If Porsche doesn't offer a mid engined sports car between the 991 Turbo S and the 918, a GT2 RS with AWD could do the trick. Or a 991 Turbo GTS (which I wouldn't be surprised to see at some point). 

    For die hard track junkies, there would still be the 991 GT3 RS with 495 horses.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    artur777:
    reginos:

    Speculation about the GT2:

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-911-gt2-turbo-get-552bhp

    Christian, could GT2 be AWD?))) its really car to wait - synergy of Turbo S and GT3! Agree?

    I'm not sure Porsche would take the risk but to be honest, I think a GT2 with AWD and the typical 100kg or so weight reduction vs. the 991 Turbo S, would sell pretty well. Price tag would be over 250k EUR though (I guess), so the customer pool would be limited. If Porsche doesn't offer a mid engined sports car between the 991 Turbo S and the 918, a GT2 RS with AWD could do the trick. Or a 991 Turbo GTS (which I wouldn't be surprised to see at some point). 

    For die hard track junkies, there would still be the 991 GT3 RS with 495 horses.

    I feel you are right


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    Speculation about the GT2:

    http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/porsche-911-gt2-turbo-get-552bhp

    The 991 GT2 RS is going to be one serious motor car with "upwards of 620bhp"...

    Mark Webber and his 911 GT2 RS -- Video Link

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    GT2 with AWD ? that's just wrong! mail


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    There can be no GT2 with AWD, but Porsche could introduce a Turbo GTS with GT2 power and AWD. If they read rennteam, it is a good sales opportunity. 


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    There can be no GT2 with AWD, but Porsche could introduce a Turbo GTS with GT2 power and AWD. If they read rennteam, it is a good sales opportunity. 


    I take the very limited, very powerful Turbo GTS RS please. Smiley


    --

    The secret of life is to admire without desiring.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Rossi:
    reginos:

    There can be no GT2 with AWD, but Porsche could introduce a Turbo GTS with GT2 power and AWD. If they read rennteam, it is a good sales opportunity. 


    I take the very limited, very powerful Turbo GTS RS please. Smiley

    Smiley.....I'll have to see how much to charge you for that Smiley


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Right now, there seems to be the following rumor:

    991 GT2 with 560 hp and 2WD, weight difference aprox. 100 kg vs. the 991 Turbo, same body, PDK, spring 2014

    991 GT2 RS with 630 hp and 2WD, weight difference aprox. 90 kg vs. the 991 Turbo, same body, very likely PDK (unless the GT3RS gets a manual option, then manual is possible for the GT2RS too), autumn 2014

    Take this with a grain of salt but I'm afraid no AWD on the horizon (IF the rumor proves to be correct).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Right now, there seems to be the following rumor:

    991 GT2 with 560 hp and 2WD, weight difference aprox. 100 kg vs. the 991 Turbo, same body, PDK, spring 2014

    991 GT2 RS with 630 hp and 2WD, weight difference aprox. 90 kg vs. the 991 Turbo, same body, very likely PDK (unless the GT3RS gets a manual option, then manual is possible for the GT2RS too), autumn 2014

    Take this with a grain of salt but I'm afraid no AWD on the horizon (IF the rumor proves to be correct).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4

    I think it would make no sense (economically) for Porsche to offer a GT2 and a GT2RS within such a very short period of time. Who would buy the regular GT2? The car would be a lame compromise Smiley If I had to guess, the bring the GT2RS much later (like in case of the 997GT2) or never...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Wouldn't a GT2 4WD be...a Turbo with a bit more power?Weight loss in a GT2 mostly comes from loosing 4WD, lghter seats and wings can be ordered or retrofittable anyway if someones likes his Turbo in a GT2 look


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    lor:

    Wouldn't a GT2 4WD be...a Turbo with a bit more power?Weight loss in a GT2 mostly comes from loosing 4WD, lghter seats and wings can be ordered or retrofittable anyway if someones likes his Turbo in a GT2 look

    There are drivers who cannot drive the RWD GT2 either due to ability, climate or both. Adding 4WD to the GT2 and calling it something else, whilst keeping the power output, body styling and lightweight parts and the 2 seater configuration, would open up the GT2 market to a large number of potential buyers.


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    MKSGR:
    I think it would make no sense (economically) for Porsche to offer a GT2 and a GT2RS within such a very short period of time. Who would buy the regular GT2? The car would be a lame compromise Smiley If I had to guess, the bring the GT2RS much later (like in case of the 997GT2) or never...

    The price tag will make the difference according to rumors. If there is a difference of 60k EUR between both cars, well... Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:
    lor:

    Wouldn't a GT2 4WD be...a Turbo with a bit more power?Weight loss in a GT2 mostly comes from loosing 4WD, lghter seats and wings can be ordered or retrofittable anyway if someones likes his Turbo in a GT2 look

    There are drivers who cannot drive the RWD GT2 either due to ability, climate or both. Adding 4WD to the GT2 and calling it something else, whilst keeping the power output, body styling and lightweight parts and the 2 seater configuration, would open up the GT2 market to a large number of potential buyers.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Didn't Ferrari overcome this problem with the manettino switch on their rwd cars ? Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:
    lor:

    Wouldn't a GT2 4WD be...a Turbo with a bit more power?Weight loss in a GT2 mostly comes from loosing 4WD, lghter seats and wings can be ordered or retrofittable anyway if someones likes his Turbo in a GT2 look

    There are drivers who cannot drive the RWD GT2 either due to ability, climate or both. Adding 4WD to the GT2 and calling it something else, whilst keeping the power output, body styling and lightweight parts and the 2 seater configuration, would open up the GT2 market to a large number of potential buyers.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Not sure I get your point. The peope can buy a Turbo S and a silly bodykit. If ability is not there they should not buy the car Smiley If you can afford the car you also can afford some driver training.


    --
    Off enjoying my car...

    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    MKSGR:
    I think it would make no sense (economically) for Porsche to offer a GT2 and a GT2RS within such a very short period of time. Who would buy the regular GT2? The car would be a lame compromise Smiley If I had to guess, the bring the GT2RS much later (like in case of the 997GT2) or never...

    The price tag will make the difference according to rumors. If there is a difference of 60k EUR between both cars, well... Smiley

    Well, a regular GT2 would not sell below Euro 200k (or slightly above) either - the difference between 200 and 260 is not substantial enough for most buyers of these cars, I would guess. Would you really spend Euro 200k for a "compromise" Smiley I just cannot believe the market for such car exists. Also, a GT2 with 560hp probably could not match the 997GT2 RS in terms of performance (at least it would not be quicker). Somehow, these rumours just don't make sense to me Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    MKSGR:
     I just cannot believe the market for such car exists. Also, a GT2 with 560hp probably could not match the 997GT2 RS in terms of performance (at least it would not be quicker). Somehow, these rumours just don't make sense to me Smiley

    Don't shoot the messenger...some of the rumors in the past have been wrong, so always take them with a grain of salt.

    Judging by the current 991 Turbo S pricing, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar price hike for the next 991 GT2. The only thing which surprises me is the same power figure as the 991 Turbo S. 

    Btw: The GT2 RS comes one year after the GT2 according to a correction of the rumor, this means 2015.

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche Panamera Turbo S, Cayenne GTS (958), BMW X3 35d (2012), Mini Cooper S Countryman All4


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    MKSGR:
     I just cannot believe the market for such car exists. Also, a GT2 with 560hp probably could not match the 997GT2 RS in terms of performance (at least it would not be quicker). Somehow, these rumours just don't make sense to me Smiley

    Don't shoot the messenger...some of the rumors in the past have been wrong, so always take them with a grain of salt.

    Judging by the current 991 Turbo S pricing, I wouldn't be surprised to see a similar price hike for the next 991 GT2. The only thing which surprises me is the same power figure as the 991 Turbo S. 

    Btw: The GT2 RS comes one year after the GT2 according to a correction of the rumor, this means 2015.

     

    What might make perfect sense (for Porsche) is a GT2 RS only (i.e. no base version) in 2015 (launch late 2014) with a steep price ticket and very good performance Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    TEE:
    reginos:
    lor:

    Wouldn't a GT2 4WD be...a Turbo with a bit more power?Weight loss in a GT2 mostly comes from loosing 4WD, lghter seats and wings can be ordered or retrofittable anyway if someones likes his Turbo in a GT2 look

    There are drivers who cannot drive the RWD GT2 either due to ability, climate or both. Adding 4WD to the GT2 and calling it something else, whilst keeping the power output, body styling and lightweight parts and the 2 seater configuration, would open up the GT2 market to a large number of potential buyers.


    --

    "Form follows function"

    Not sure I get your point. The peope can buy a Turbo S and a silly bodykit. If ability is not there they should not buy the car Smiley If you can afford the car you also can afford some driver training.


    What I meant is to offer another AWD model with the RWD GT2 RS power (assumed to be 600+PS) and call it the Turbo GTS.

    At that level of power AWD would attract additional customers. Many owners crashed their 996 and 997 GT2s because they were too powerful for them. Not everyone with money to buy such cars is an ace driver.


    --

    "Form follows function"


     
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