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    My 997TT test drive

    Today, I had the first opportunity to test the 997TT (manual with SC). After comparing the test car with my "old" 996TT (including x50 and x73) I came to the following conclusions:

    Engine:

    - The car has a rather typical Porsche turbo sound; nothing spectacular - however, typical for a Porsche turbo...
    - Turbo boost builds up quicker than in my car
    - The Overboost indicator appears for more than 10 seconds (actually it never switched off...); the indicator also appears if you press the throttle at revs above 5500; in conclusion, the indicator does not appear to be linked to the actual status of the overboost but is more some sort of "reminder" that SC and the overboost function are activated.
    - While I did not feel the additional power I did some test runs up to 305kph (on the speedometer)
    - Firstly, the speedo is pretty accurate at around 200kph (+ 1% to 2% maximum or so)
    - I did 200-305kph three times; acceleration times were between 22 and 23 seconds in each run (air temperature was around 24C)
    - This would imply 0-300kph times well below 40 seconds, which I think is rather quick
    - When I tried to do the same test in my car a little bit later I had more traffic; while I have to repeat the test in my own car I can safely say that the 997TT is at least 5 seconds quicker to 305kph (starting from 200) than my 996TTx50
    - I also compared the acceleration 200-305 in 5th gear/6th gear and 6th gear only (i.e. no shift at all); interestingly, the acceleration figures were the same...
    - As a consequence, I do no longer believe that the manual version is quicker than Tiptronic above 200kph; given the torque/hp characteristic of the 997TT it seems rather irrelevant whether you have 5 or 6 gears.
    - Fuel consumption seems pretty much identical to my car

    Steering:

    - A little bit lighter than in my 996TT
    - The progressive steering characteristic is a massive improvement; you can drive tight bends (up to 180 degrees) without shuffling hands

    Brakes:

    - The car had PCCB
    - Compared to the steel brakes of the 996TT the PCCB is a massive improvement
    - Instant feed-back, excellent brake feel, very strong - just perfect
    - The PCCB is still a bit noisy from time to time

    Suspension:

    - In sport mode the car is comparably stiff as my 996TT with x73
    - No substantial horizontal or vertical gearing in sport mode
    - The standard mode still provides a relatively harsh ride but adds a rather unfavorable instability
    - Thus I strongly preferred sport mode
    - In tight corners the car feels a little bit lighter than my 996TT
    - In essence, the suspension setup in sports mode appears pretty close to the old x73 option

    BTW: The interior is a big improvement over the 996; more space, better seats, better driver position etc. Liked it a lot.

    BTW, RC...

    ... Could you possibly time 200-305kph (based on speedo) in your car?

    It would be very intersting to have a corresponding performance figure of a Tiptronic car (although test conditions are obviously different from my "test"). At least we would have a first high speed benchmark of manual and tiptronic

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    ... Could you possibly time 200-305kph (based on speedo) in your car?

    It would be very intersting to have a corresponding performance figure of a Tiptronic car (although test conditions are obviously different from my "test"). At least we would have a first high speed benchmark of manual and tiptronic



    So you were impressed, I gather? Porsche should really look into fitting an LSD onto the Tip (it would probably help even mediocre drivers) and providing the car with a dedicated -20 mm suspension. Seems like all the hype about the Tiptronic was justified and RC foiled us yet again .

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    ... Could you possibly time 200-305kph (based on speedo) in your car?

    It would be very intersting to have a corresponding performance figure of a Tiptronic car (although test conditions are obviously different from my "test"). At least we would have a first high speed benchmark of manual and tiptronic



    So you were impressed, I gather? Porsche should really look into fitting an LSD onto the Tip (it would probably help even mediocre drivers) and providing the car with a dedicated -20 mm suspension. Seems like all the hype about the Tiptronic was justified and RC foiled us yet again .



    I liked the car very much - many improvements over the 996TT but clearly no big step forward.

    Thus, I would say I am convinced - but not impressed

    Re: My 997TT test drive

    Thanks for sharing your impressions, M! (but where are the pictures? )

    But you are still waiting for the GT2, i presume?

    Re: My 997TT test drive

    Quote:
    zzboba said:
    Thanks for sharing your impressions, M! (but where are the pictures? )

    But you are still waiting for the GT2, i presume?



    You are right, I should have taken some pictures. The car was red - and I was sursprised how good a red 997TT looks in reality. However, my wife has already decided that red is not an option for us

    I still hope for a GT2 with PSM. That would be my "dream car"

    Re: My 997TT test drive

    MKSGR, thx for comprehensive review

    Few ques....
    Roughly how many km on car?
    What were tire press (wondering where this perceived instability in Non-Sport mode is derived)?
    Is car less stable in Sport (vs Non-Sport) PASM mode on bumpier roads?
    Any sense of how 100-200KPH accel compares vs your 996TTS (key elasticity metric for the lowly US and other ex-Germany mkts )?

    Separately, the few 997TTs I've seen live in US have Mich PS tires, not PS2 of 997S ....which tire is factory-spec in Germany?...and on car you drove?

    TIA

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    ... Could you possibly time 200-305kph (based on speedo) in your car?

    It would be very intersting to have a corresponding performance figure of a Tiptronic car (although test conditions are obviously different from my "test"). At least we would have a first high speed benchmark of manual and tiptronic



    So you were impressed, I gather? Porsche should really look into fitting an LSD onto the Tip (it would probably help even mediocre drivers) and providing the car with a dedicated -20 mm suspension. Seems like all the hype about the Tiptronic was justified and RC foiled us yet again .



    I liked the car very much - many improvements over the 996TT but clearly no big step forward.

    Thus, I would say I am convinced - but not impressed


    I'm not trying to be sarcastic, so forgive me if it comes across so, but would you have considered the 996TTS a big step forward over the 996TT? If the answer is yes then the 997 would qualify also.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    It is not difficult for a tuned 996 TT to match the0-300 kph times (or the NBR times) of the 997 Turbo.Those who drive tuned 996 Turbos are less likely to buy a 997 TT when there is no significant increase in performance.

    My main concern about the 997 Turbo is the suspension. PASM Sport mode may be equal to a 996 TT with X73, but the H&R coilover suspension is better than X73. Similar power and inferior suspension does not make a compelling case for a change of cars to me.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    Those who drive tuned 996 Turbos are less likely to buy a 997 TT when there is no significant increase in performance.





    That's exactly my situation.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Thx for sharing your impressions.
    It seems that everything has been improved hence I give
    Maybe not enough for some, which is pretty comprehensible especially as far as performance is concerned for tuned 996TT, but for me is very satisfying because they improved everything and I don't own a 996TT even less a tuned one.

    After the warranty expires tuners will have, by then, nice upgrade if one wants more.

    Re: My 997TT test drive

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    MKSGR, thx for comprehensive review

    Few ques....
    Roughly how many km on car?
    What were tire press (wondering where this perceived instability in Non-Sport mode is derived)?
    Is car less stable in Sport (vs Non-Sport) PASM mode on bumpier roads?
    Any sense of how 100-200KPH accel compares vs your 996TTS (key elasticity metric for the lowly US and other ex-Germany mkts )?

    Separately, the few 997TTs I've seen live in US have Mich PS tires, not PS2 of 997S ....which tire is factory-spec in Germany?...and on car you drove?

    TIA



    Hello VKSF,

    here are some additional inputs regarding your questions:

    - the car had close to 10,000km
    - tire pressure was OK (+.2 bar at front, +.3 bar at the rear); your question was raised due to my limited English skills, I guess... I basically meant vertical and horizontal body movements when referring to "instability", particularly, when accelerating or braking heavily and (to a lesser degree) body roll in fast bends; sorry for the confusion
    - stability in sports mode on bumpier roads: the car is somehow "jumpy" on this kind of roads; however, I must admit that I do like that kind of setup (actually, I am used to it given the x73 in my car); on the other hand, I was under the impression that the normal PASM setting is also a bit harsh (and thus jumpy) - don't know whether the positive impact of the standard impact on bumpy roads will be that large
    - the car had Michelin PS2 tires
    - While I did not take times for 100-200kph (as the press has reported on these acceleration benchmarks and my car also had a S-GO xxxx number plate like the press cars ) my impression is that the car should be quicker than the 996TTS. In addition to the extra 30hp the quicker build-up of boost pressure should help the 100-200kph performance


    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    polo said:
    Thx for sharing your impressions.
    It seems that everything has been improved hence I give
    Maybe not enough for some, which is pretty comprehensible especially as far as performance is concerned for tuned 996TT, but for me is very satisfying because they improved everything and I don't own a 996TT even less a tuned one.




    I fully agree. The car has been improved in many directions. Actually, I could not mention a single aspect where the 996TTS is superior to the 997TT

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    LoranTw said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    ... Could you possibly time 200-305kph (based on speedo) in your car?

    It would be very intersting to have a corresponding performance figure of a Tiptronic car (although test conditions are obviously different from my "test"). At least we would have a first high speed benchmark of manual and tiptronic



    So you were impressed, I gather? Porsche should really look into fitting an LSD onto the Tip (it would probably help even mediocre drivers) and providing the car with a dedicated -20 mm suspension. Seems like all the hype about the Tiptronic was justified and RC foiled us yet again .



    I liked the car very much - many improvements over the 996TT but clearly no big step forward.

    Thus, I would say I am convinced - but not impressed


    I'm not trying to be sarcastic, so forgive me if it comes across so, but would you have considered the 996TTS a big step forward over the 996TT? If the answer is yes then the 997 would qualify also.



    Of course, the 996TTS was no big improvement over the 996TT: The TTS just has an extra 30hp

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    It is not difficult for a tuned 996 TT to match the0-300 kph times (or the NBR times) of the 997 Turbo.Those who drive tuned 996 Turbos are less likely to buy a 997 TT when there is no significant increase in performance.

    My main concern about the 997 Turbo is the suspension. PASM Sport mode may be equal to a 996 TT with X73, but the H&R coilover suspension is better than X73. Similar power and inferior suspension does not make a compelling case for a change of cars to me.



    Given the 997TT's 200-300kph/h performance I do expect nice results from the powerkit and the GT2

    Re: BTW, RC...

    thanks, M! really appreciate the break down... Would you say the 997S (with PCCB) vs. 997TT is worth the extra money? Also, can you speak more to the handling of the car... thank you again!

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    mateoche said:
    thanks, M! really appreciate the break down... Would you say the 997S (with PCCB) vs. 997TT is worth the extra money? Also, can you speak more to the handling of the car... thank you again!


    I would say that 997s and 997TT are two very different cars: Clearly, I would recommend the 997TT for European drivers who have the opportunity to really *use* the enormous engine power on a frequent basis. The 997s might be an interesting alternative if one lives in a speed limited country and has no opportunity to drive really fast from time to time.

    The 997s provides the typical Porsche feeling and has a reasonable engine/exhaust sound. It handles very well and looks extremely nice (I think the looks of a 997s cannot be matched by the 997TT). I think, if sheer engine power is not paramount I would seriously consider a 997s as an alternative to the 997TT.

    Having said that, the 997TT plays in a class of its own above 100kph, and in particular above 200kph. Ample hp and torque provide lots of fun. However, the 997TT handles and feels different compared to the 997s. Somehow, the 997TT feels heavier at the front, has a stronger tendency to understeer (even in PASM sport) than the 997s. On the other hand, in tighter and slower corners this is (partially) compensated by the excellent AWD, and sufficient engine power is always present (assuming adequate boost) to manually add some oversteer. The AWD is also a strong asset when driving in rain.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    I would say that 997s and 997TT are two very different cars: Clearly, I would recommend the 997TT for European drivers who have the opportunity to really *use* the enormous engine power on a frequent basis. The 997s might be an interesting alternative if one lives in a speed limited country and has no opportunity to drive really fast from time to time.

    The 997s provides the typical Porsche feeling and has a reasonable engine/exhaust sound. It handles very well and looks extremely nice (I think the looks of a 997s cannot be matched by the 997TT). I think, if sheer engine power is not paramount I would seriously consider a 997s as an alternative to the 997TT.

    Having said that, the 997TT plays in a class of its own above 100kph, and in particular above 200kph. Ample hp and torque provide lots of fun. However, the 997TT handles and feels different compared to the 997s. Somehow, the 997TT feels heavier at the front, has a stronger tendency to understeer (even in PASM sport) than the 997s. On the other hand, in tighter and slower corners this is (partially) compensated by the excellent AWD, and sufficient engine power is always present (assuming adequate boost) to manually add some oversteer. The AWD is also a strong asset when driving in rain.



    Great analysis based on true practical experience.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    It is not difficult for a tuned 996 TT to match the0-300 kph times (or the NBR times) of the 997 Turbo.Those who drive tuned 996 Turbos are less likely to buy a 997 TT when there is no significant increase in performance.

    My main concern about the 997 Turbo is the suspension. PASM Sport mode may be equal to a 996 TT with X73, but the H&R coilover suspension is better than X73. Similar power and inferior suspension does not make a compelling case for a change of cars to me.



    Given the 997TT's 200-300kph/h performance I do expect nice results from the powerkit and the GT2



    Yes me too.

    An excellent all-season track and autobahn 911 would be a 997 Turbo S with GT2 suspension and dynamics. Perhaps it could be called the GT4 and provide AWD plus GT2 track credibility.

    My car has this balance, but I had to create it with tuners and void the warranty. I hope the 997 Turbo S (or 997 GT4) will require no mods at all.

    Thank you for posting the 200-305 kph numbers; they were the missing link. Now we need those times from a Tip to complete the picture.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    MKSGR said:
    ... Could you possibly time 200-305kph (based on speedo) in your car?

    It would be very intersting to have a corresponding performance figure of a Tiptronic car (although test conditions are obviously different from my "test"). At least we would have a first high speed benchmark of manual and tiptronic



    I try to do that, unfortunately it isn't easy to find an Autobahn with less traffic on the weekend.

    Very nice short review btw., thanks!

    Re: BTW, RC...

    'I try to do that, unfortunately it isn't easy to find an Autobahn with less traffic on the weekend. ' RC

    +++ Sunday at dawn.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    I am suprised at your commments on the ride quality,the car I dorve was significantly more comfortable than the 996tt and 997S i had,and easily matches if not beats the M6.
    I wonder if we have a different spec for the Uk/Europe..especially as the Uk roads are so bad,

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    AUM said:
    An excellent all-season track and autobahn 911 would be a 997 Turbo S with GT2 suspension and dynamics. Perhaps it could be called the GT4 and provide AWD plus GT2 track credibility.



    But it would still use PASM.

    I'm not sure why you're insisting all the time to have a coilover kit installed in your car. Lower and stiffer are actually bad things for the Nordschleife.
    Adaptation? Same as with the LSD here: a pro driver would benefit, an amateur driver (like most of us) very likely...not.

    Regarding performance: of course a tuned 996 Turbo will be always faster (straight line) than a 997 Turbo. But from our party weekend two weeks ago, as controversial as the individual perception of the back to back driving results may have been, I learned one thing for sure: the 997 Turbo WITHOUT tuning is fast as hell and can keep up with most tuned cars out there, with a few exceptions maybe.

    That said, I wonder why people always want to improve the car, why not improve driving skills first?! I know, I know...all of you are great drivers but...

    AUM, I'm not sure I understand you. For the Nordschleife, get a 997 GT3 RS and you'll be happy. If you want to be fast on the Autobahn too, I'm afraid you need to get a second car. The problem is that the 997 Turbo is no track car. It IS indeed very fast on any track on this planet but I doubt that it may "survive" too long when driven hard during a serious semi-pro track event due to it's weight and the tires. Cup tires may improve handling and lateral acceleration but they can't make the additional weight disappear. Not even talking about the brake, the standard brake would definetely not be capable of coping with a longer (a couple of serious rounds) racing event.

    So before you guys start to ask yourselves which car is right for you, let me put it this way: the 997 Turbo is a great performer and I'm sure it has a lot of potential for tuning, mostly the engine part. However it will NEVER be a very good track car due to weight, the slightly reduced throttle response (boost pressure) and the sometimes annoying PSM setup which may intrude too much during a serious track event even if Sport Chrono is active.

    Why did I choose the 997 Turbo for myself?
    1. I have to drive this car for the next five years, a turbo engine offers various options for upgrades and keeping performance at an "up-to-date" level with other cars
    2. I need the rear seats (two little kids)
    3. I need the AWD (Bavaria driving: snow, lots of rain in autumn, etc.)
    4. I'm one or two times on the track each year, not really needing to prove myself anymore. For pleasure it isn't worth it since a set of tires, rims or whatever may not be cheap and I need my money for other stuff like family vacations, keeping Rennteam up and running and everyday living.
    5. I'm a technology geek, I love everything new. The 997 Turbo offers me the possibility to test it's new "electronic" capabilities at the limit, a new challenge for me, maybe something others may not fully understand. So yes, I'm actually using the 997 Turbo's "safety" electronics to reach a higher driving performance level. Not recommended for unexperienced drivers but a lot of fun.

    Overall, I'm happy with my decision. There are a few points which I may have done different regarding 997 Turbo development but I'm no engineer and I'm also not working for Porsche marketing, so maybe I just should forget about it.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Quote:
    AUM said:
    An excellent all-season track and autobahn 911 would be a 997 Turbo S with GT2 suspension and dynamics. Perhaps it could be called the GT4 and provide AWD plus GT2 track credibility.



    But it would still use PASM.

    I'm not sure why you're insisting all the time to have a coilover kit installed in your car. Lower and stiffer are actually bad things for the Nordschleife.
    Adaptation? Same as with the LSD here: a pro driver would benefit, an amateur driver (like most of us) very likely...not.

    Regarding performance: of course a tuned 996 Turbo will be always faster (straight line) than a 997 Turbo. But from our party weekend two weeks ago, as controversial as the individual perception of the back to back driving results may have been, I learned one thing for sure: the 997 Turbo WITHOUT tuning is fast as hell and can keep up with most tuned cars out there, with a few exceptions maybe.

    That said, I wonder why people always want to improve the car, why not improve driving skills first?! I know, I know...all of you are great drivers but...

    AUM, I'm not sure I understand you. For the Nordschleife, get a 997 GT3 RS and you'll be happy. If you want to be fast on the Autobahn too, I'm afraid you need to get a second car. The problem is that the 997 Turbo is no track car. It IS indeed very fast on any track on this planet but I doubt that it may "survive" too long when driven hard during a serious semi-pro track event due to it's weight and the tires. Cup tires may improve handling and lateral acceleration but they can't make the additional weight disappear. Not even talking about the brake, the standard brake would definetely not be capable of coping with a longer (a couple of serious rounds) racing event.

    So before you guys start to ask yourselves which car is right for you, let me put it this way: the 997 Turbo is a great performer and I'm sure it has a lot of potential for tuning, mostly the engine part. However it will NEVER be a very good track car due to weight, the slightly reduced throttle response (boost pressure) and the sometimes annoying PSM setup which may intrude too much during a serious track event even if Sport Chrono is active.





    I do not want to own two cars. Thus my search for the the best all-weather track/autobahn compromise.There is no perfect dual-purpose track and autobahn 911, the turbo is, as you point out, too heavy for serious track work.

    However, my car does come reasonable close to this ideal. The ride height lowers the centre of gravity (thus reducing the weight problem) and the H&R set-up provides a stable, predictable and wallow-free handling near the limit on a track, plus it provides adequate long-distance comfort.

    Since my car already comes close to meeting my needs, and since no better track/autobahn 997 exists, I am waiting to see the specs for the 997 GT2 and Turbo S.

    But Idoubt the Turbo S will have the GT2 suspension (I hope i am wrong here) and I see no point in adding more power to the Turbo platform without a suspension upgrade.PASM can be improved.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Of course PASM could be improved. I only doubt it will happen any time soon. To my knowledge, the 997 GT2 gets a very similar PASM setup to the one installed in the GT3 RS.
    No new technology as far as I heard.

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Regarding a 997S as an alternative to a 997TT, I agree they are two very different cars. I had a tuned 996TT for five years, drove the 997TT for several days in Austria, and now own a 997S as I wait for my 997TT in the spring of 07.

    I love the S--it is quick, nimble and I enjoy the sport exhaust option. Its style is much cleaner than the 997TT, and somehow elicits more nice comments than my 996TT, which I believe somehow threatened people.

    But, and this is a big BUT, in the S I never feel that power and "power" confidence that the 997TT gives you. When I am on an open road in the S, I feel that there are many cars that could run with me, or even out accelerate me. In the turbo, I always felt that I was driving the most powerful car around, and that is (I am slightly embarrassed to admit) a very strong appeal of any new turbo (997TT or tuned 996TT). I rarely let myself get into a street "duel", but when I did in the Turbo I was always satisfied.

    And finally, the 4 wheel drive in the TT is far more confidence building than the S.

    If you are into power, the TT is the only way to go...

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    That said, I wonder why people always want to improve the car, why not improve driving skills first?! I know, I know...all of you are great drivers but...
    [...]
    1. I have to drive this car for the next five years, a turbo engine offers various options for upgrades and keeping performance at an "up-to-date" level with other cars




    We all know you're a great driver, but...

    Re: BTW, RC...

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Of course PASM could be improved. I only doubt it will happen any time soon. To my knowledge, the 997 GT2 gets a very similar PASM setup to the one installed in the GT3 RS.
    No new technology as far as I heard.



    What is the chance of a similar PASM for the Turbo S?

    Re: My 997TT test drive

    Here are my results from various runs today:

    200 kph to 305 kph: 23.4 to 23.6 seconds (did 3 rounds)
    100 kph to 200 kph: 7.5 to 7.7 seconds (did 3 rounds)
    Speeds are speedo displayed speeds!

    GPS measured speed errors (speedo vs. real speed):

    200 kph = 191 kph
    300 kph = 287 kph
    326 kph = 311 kph (top speed)

    So yes, the 997 Turbo definetely does 0-300 kph in under 40 seconds, pretty impressive for a stock car.
    And the measured times also show that the manual 6 speed has no true advantage in the higher speed range.

    Re: My 997TT test drive

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Here are my results from various runs today:

    200 kph to 305 kph: 23.4 to 23.6 seconds (did 3 rounds)
    100 kph to 200 kph: 7.5 to 7.7 seconds (did 3 rounds)
    Speeds are speedo displayed speeds!

    GPS measured speed errors (speedo vs. real speed):

    200 kph = 191 kph
    300 kph = 287 kph
    326 kph = 311 kph (top speed)

    So yes, the 997 Turbo definetely does 0-300 kph in under 40 seconds, pretty impressive for a stock car.
    And the measured times also show that the manual 6 speed has no true advantage in the higher speed range.



    So, what this means is that Porsche doesn't really need to announce the PDK any time soon. And it confirms your report about being dead even with the Mk2 GT2.

     
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