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    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Man, looks like you do have to be a millionaire to drive a new Porsche!



    If that was the case, P would never sell 80.000 cars a year.

    I actually don't really understand the numbers mentioned (I'm not american)

    I don't really understand why you need to have an income of 1 million a year to afford spending 250K on cars.

    Also, how you guys evaluate net worth: do you include homes, stocks, cash etc. ? Or is it just cash?


    IMHO, the house should not be add to your net worth as you'll always need a place to live.
    As for the 300k income, it all depends on how much you spend on other stuff.If everything else is paid of, and if you can manage to live with 50.000 for a year, you can save the 250K needed in just a year.

    The numbers all of you posted are huge amonts of money nobody has. If you need to earn 1m a year to get these 2 cars, you'd need to earn 400K a year to buy a 997s. I highly doubt that people who owns one earn that kind of money.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    amazon said:
    Quote:
    Texas911 said:
    Man, looks like you do have to be a millionaire to drive a new Porsche!



    If that was the case, P would never sell 80.000 cars a year.

    I actually don't really understand the numbers mentioned (I'm not american)

    I don't really understand why you need to have an income of 1 million a year to afford spending 250K on cars.

    Also, how you guys evaluate net worth: do you include homes, stocks, cash etc. ? Or is it just cash?


    IMHO, the house should not be add to your net worth as you'll always need a place to live.
    As for the 300k income, it all depends on how much you spend on other stuff.If everything else is paid of, and if you can manage to live with 50.000 for a year, you can save the 250K needed in just a year.

    The numbers all of you posted are huge amonts of money nobody has. If you need to earn 1m a year to get these 2 cars, you'd need to earn 400K a year to buy a 997s. I highly doubt that people who owns one earn that kind of money.



    Of course one can afford to buy such cars when he has less money, but why put most of your income towards your cars?
    One more thing: with the 50.000 left from the original 300.000, you'll still need to pay for service, insurance and gas. Not to mention tyres . Add a few traffic tickets and you're there. So unless you're planning to live in the Bronx, I don't think you can make it.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Of course one can afford to buy such cars when he has less money, but why put most of your income towards your cars?
    One more thing: with the 50.000 left from the original 300.000, you'll still need to pay for service, insurance and gas. Not to mention tyres . Add a few traffic tickets and you're there. So unless you're planning to live in the Bronx, I don't think you can make it.




    You're right. The cost/year of these cars must be pretty high.
    I guess I got scared by the numbers. I mean, I'm never ever gonna make a million a year or achieve a net worth of even 5 million. And that's not going to stop me getting a 997 (even a 997TT) as soon as I can. If I had just 1 million in cash I'd be at the dealer as we speak.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    My income number were pre tax ($1mio). Don't forget, the original poster wanted to buy TWO cars (a GT3 plus a turbo).

    Also he is young and has a lot of expense ahead of him (kids, college, probably another house).

    In the US if you have a new Porsche, you don't live with $50K a year, more like $100-150K minimum spending a year.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Why do you think Porsche "only" sells 2,000 turbos a year, 1,000 of them in the US? If you needed to make $250K a year, they would sell 10,000 a year in the US only. I believe 5% of US households make more than $300K a year, 1% makes more than $1mio a year, that's almost 1 mio households!

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    I read that for the first time, in the USA, there are over a million millionaires. So finding people to afford the turbo isn't the reason Porsche only sells 2000 turbos.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    amazon said:
    Quote:
    Crash said:
    Of course one can afford to buy such cars when he has less money, but why put most of your income towards your cars?
    One more thing: with the 50.000 left from the original 300.000, you'll still need to pay for service, insurance and gas. Not to mention tyres . Add a few traffic tickets and you're there. So unless you're planning to live in the Bronx, I don't think you can make it.




    You're right. The cost/year of these cars must be pretty high.
    I guess I got scared by the numbers. I mean, I'm never ever gonna make a million a year or achieve a net worth of even 5 million. And that's not going to stop me getting a 997 (even a 997TT) as soon as I can. If I had just 1 million in cash I'd be at the dealer as we speak.



    Now, now... No need to be pessimistic about your future. Who knows, maybe you'll be worth 50 million in 10 years?

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Sorry to burst your bubble, I believe there are over 10mio millionaires (net worth) in the US.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    faterikcartman said:
    Alan, I knew that was the policy but my wife was pretty flipped out by the political provocation and America bashing, and to be honest I thought it was a cheap shot and unneccessary too.

    We're more like $1.4M (net, after obligations) and $300K/YR.

    I'm asking because we've been cheapskates with cars our whole lives (together and previously) and figured you guys and gals would have better experience dropping big money on cars and how it has affected you and your finances.

    Obviously we could pay cash for both but the opportunity cost is what I worry about.



    If you ask me, US$ 300k p.a. (in combination with the net wealth mentioned) is much too low for buying both cars. I would buy just one and continue saving. You might need the money later.

    P.S.: The marginal rate of return of owning both will be rather small as compared to owning only one

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Why do you think Porsche "only" sells 2,000 turbos a year, 1,000 of them in the US? If you needed to make $250K a year, they would sell 10,000 a year in the US only. I believe 5% of US households make more than $300K a year, 1% makes more than $1mio a year, that's almost 1 mio households!



    To be exact (2003 stats) 1.9% make more than $200k per year (2,536,439 households), and only 0.1% make more than $1mio a year (181,283 households), sorry I was a bit off.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Burst my bubble? Whatever that means. You've been itching to tell us all your net worth. So give it to us already and be done with it. Big deal.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Just stating some little know facts... I happened to come accross these numbers and they where not what I though, and which happen to be relevant to Porsche demographics for the 997 turbo. What does it have to do with my personal situation? Just trying to help someone lacking good financial advices (the original poster).

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    The US must be a different world, I live here in the UK and most people buy their cars on finance/lease purchase. If you walk into a Porsche dealer and listen in, you'll commonly hear "I've got a 10% deposit and a packet of chocolate buttons, how much will the monthly payments be?"

    I know of one guy who actually paid the deposit by credit card, so actually didn't have anything to put down at all.

    As for getting two cars, I doubt your enjoyment would be much greater than owning just one. As somebody else suggested, maybe getting a 2-3 yo 996 would be a good taster and make better financial sense at the outset.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Interesting thread and not at all off topic. How DO we afford these incredible cars... The accountants and money guys won't spend over 5% of their net worth on depreciating assets (our beloved cars); the exuberant car guy will spend most of their paycheck on a car and live in a trailer- where do you fit in? Cars, kids, college, retirement... I have probably spent more than I should on cars and my wife recently asked me if I died tomorrow, how would I feel about the $ I've spent on cars over the years. Since my family is taken care of, I think the money I've spent on cars is the best money I could have spent. The thrill, enjoyment, anticipation, adrenaline of owning some of the best cars in the world that most lust over and dream of even driving- can't be put in monetary terms. Only a car guy can understand this and it's the best money I have ever spent on Myself. No regerets. And today i put a deposit on the 997 TT. BTW, in some years, I've lost as much in the stock market as in my cars but I enjoyed the cars much more!

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Without a fun car, maybe you wouldn't be quite so motivated to go to work everyday or do as much while you were there...there's two ways to look at the "car as a depreciating asset." Some things are worth working a little harder for.

    mcdelaug

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    I don't see my car as an "asset" like I don't view my TV as an asset, or my cloths, or my computer. Just a luxury plaything.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    I'll put mine in the entertainment catagory......

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Give me a break. Where do you live? Is this a car site or a political one? Furthermore, one word: PASSION!

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    sjn2004 said:
    The US must be a different world, I live here in the UK and most people buy their cars on finance/lease purchase. If you walk into a Porsche dealer and listen in, you'll commonly hear "I've got a 10% deposit and a packet of chocolate buttons, how much will the monthly payments be?"

    I know of one guy who actually paid the deposit by credit card, so actually didn't have anything to put down at all.

    As for getting two cars, I doubt your enjoyment would be much greater than owning just one. As somebody else suggested, maybe getting a 2-3 yo 996 would be a good taster and make better financial sense at the outset.



    I don't think the US is to different from what you experience. People here are buying houses with mortgages that only require interest payments and very little if any down payment. We have a negative savings rate here. I believe many if not a majority of porsches are leased.

    I just think this thread has attracted some posts with rennteamers temporarily suffering from a case of "NICKITIS".

    It also probably has to do with the fact that this is about the turbo, which is bought in most cases by the most affluent vs. the boxster, base 997, and cayenne.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    sjn2004 said:
    The US must be a different world, I live here in the UK and most people buy their cars on finance/lease purchase. If you walk into a Porsche dealer and listen in, you'll commonly hear "I've got a 10% deposit and a packet of chocolate buttons, how much will the monthly payments be?"

    I know of one guy who actually paid the deposit by credit card, so actually didn't have anything to put down at all.

    As for getting two cars, I doubt your enjoyment would be much greater than owning just one. As somebody else suggested, maybe getting a 2-3 yo 996 would be a good taster and make better financial sense at the outset.



    Lol ,, what about the remortgage job...

    I know one guy who had his mortgage all paid off then out of the blue he decided to borrow against his house ( a remortgage ) to buy his dream baby which was a new fully loaded M3 .. Wrong or right ?? , its debatable with all the purchase plans available ..

    throt..

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    In this case he's probably right, his house is paid and financing through remortgage is the cheapest way to borrow money (tax deductions at least in the US).

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    racerx said:I just think this thread has attracted some posts with rennteamers temporarily suffering from a case of "NICKITIS".

    It also probably has to do with the fact that this is about the turbo, which is bought in most cases by the most affluent vs. the boxster, base 997, and cayenne.



    Well the man did pose his dilemma as a financial question, so some have proposed prudential solutions. If it were just about the cars then hell, go for it and let the chips fall where they may.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Well after all thats been said I say just go for the 997TT ,, cant see the point of having both anyway , specially the way the new GT3 appears to be coming out..

    throt..

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    kkeating said:
    Interesting thread and not at all off topic. How DO we afford these incredible cars... The accountants and money guys won't spend over 5% of their net worth on depreciating assets (our beloved cars); the exuberant car guy will spend most of their paycheck on a car and live in a trailer- where do you fit in? Cars, kids, college, retirement... I have probably spent more than I should on cars and my wife recently asked me if I died tomorrow, how would I feel about the $ I've spent on cars over the years. Since my family is taken care of, I think the money I've spent on cars is the best money I could have spent. The thrill, enjoyment, anticipation, adrenaline of owning some of the best cars in the world that most lust over and dream of even driving- can't be put in monetary terms. Only a car guy can understand this and it's the best money I have ever spent on Myself. No regerets. And today i put a deposit on the 997 TT. BTW, in some years, I've lost as much in the stock market as in my cars but I enjoyed the cars much more!



    Now that's a good post ! You are a true car lover. I think the ones who only want to spend 5%, are not. They just buy a Porsche because it's a way of showing their wealth.

    I'm paying about 20% of my monthly income to finance my 996 4S, about 40% for my 2 houses (which is the best investment!)and the little that is left after paying all the bills, is put aside...

    I won't be hungry and I will not have to look back and see that I have not enjoyed life in the way I want to enjoy it...

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    Fast Fred said:
    Quote:
    kkeating said:
    Interesting thread and not at all off topic. How DO we afford these incredible cars... The accountants and money guys won't spend over 5% of their net worth on depreciating assets (our beloved cars); the exuberant car guy will spend most of their paycheck on a car and live in a trailer- where do you fit in? Cars, kids, college, retirement... I have probably spent more than I should on cars and my wife recently asked me if I died tomorrow, how would I feel about the $ I've spent on cars over the years. Since my family is taken care of, I think the money I've spent on cars is the best money I could have spent. The thrill, enjoyment, anticipation, adrenaline of owning some of the best cars in the world that most lust over and dream of even driving- can't be put in monetary terms. Only a car guy can understand this and it's the best money I have ever spent on Myself. No regerets. And today i put a deposit on the 997 TT. BTW, in some years, I've lost as much in the stock market as in my cars but I enjoyed the cars much more!



    Now that's a good post ! You are a true car lover. I think the ones who only want to spend 5%, are not. They just buy a Porsche because it's a way of showing their wealth.




    Totally agree with your comment on KKeatings post
    Believe me, my job has a lot do with number crunching (or, to sound more sophisticated "financial engineering") but it NEVER NEVER would come to my mind to think of a Porsche purchase in terms of investment portfolio or asset classes - I guess old Ferry would rotate in his grave hearing people talk of the top of the line 911 successor as a "depreciating asset"
    Don't get me wrong - of course I'm aware that any car is a depreciating asset from an accounting point of view. For me psychologically it does not even belong into any asset category at all - it's not a capital expenditure, it's an expense - but an expense that you should be able to APPRECIATE each time you turn the ignition key. If you wouldn't be able to really feel this kind of - emotional - appreciation, then you're better off putting your extra money into a REAL asset (in terms of accounting) and get your smiles from the latest account slip (or, well, sometimes a stomach ulcer) - so far for the emotional part.

    As for the financial advise:
    I would not go so far to accuse somebody recommending to apply the "5%-rule" of not being able to enjoy his car like an enthusiast, but I'd say such rules (especially if using percentages instead of $$-numbers) are not for everybody:
    I cannot speak of the US, but here in Germany the whole car-industry would run out of business, if all consumers would play to this rule. On the other hand I know quite some people whose garages would burst from all the CGTs Enzos etc. they would have to buy in order to come close to the 5%-rule at least. So basically it all depends on your individual financial situation and your individual concept of life.

    Most important part of KKeating's post in this regard is "since my family is taken care of"
    Once you feel that your family would not have to sacrify a single thing of their way of living even if your car would be totalled right after the pick up in Zuffenhausen (holy Ferry may beware) WITHOUT receiving one single cent from the insurance for whatever reason - then (and only then) go for whatever car you want. On the other hand if you finance the purchase always make sure, that the outstanding debt never exceeds the residiual value (think of high depreciation in the car's first and second year). Just in case your financial situation would go south quickly you don't want to fire-sale other assets or even worse further minimise your family's monthly income to cover the remaining debt from your car-purchase.

    I guess these rules are rather simple and everybody making a couple of 100 k p.a. should be able to use an Excel-sheet for some basic computations.

    Even if money is no object I could not imagine to buy a 997TT and a 997GT3 at the same time as they should be too similar in terms of the car's concept and my butt would fit only into one of these beauties at the same time anyway (would be a different story if discussing 997TT + Cayenne for example).

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    Fast Fred said:
    Quote:
    kkeating said:
    Interesting thread and not at all off topic. How DO we afford these incredible cars... The accountants and money guys won't spend over 5% of their net worth on depreciating assets (our beloved cars); the exuberant car guy will spend most of their paycheck on a car and live in a trailer- where do you fit in? Cars, kids, college, retirement... I have probably spent more than I should on cars and my wife recently asked me if I died tomorrow, how would I feel about the $ I've spent on cars over the years. Since my family is taken care of, I think the money I've spent on cars is the best money I could have spent. The thrill, enjoyment, anticipation, adrenaline of owning some of the best cars in the world that most lust over and dream of even driving- can't be put in monetary terms. Only a car guy can understand this and it's the best money I have ever spent on Myself. No regerets. And today i put a deposit on the 997 TT. BTW, in some years, I've lost as much in the stock market as in my cars but I enjoyed the cars much more!



    Now that's a good post ! You are a true car lover. I think the ones who only want to spend 5%, are not. They just buy a Porsche because it's a way of showing their wealth.




    Totally agree with your comment on KKeatings post
    Believe me, my job has a lot do with number crunching (or, to sound more sophisticated "financial engineering") but it NEVER NEVER would come to my mind to think of a Porsche purchase in terms of investment portfolio or asset classes - I guess old Ferry would rotate in his grave hearing people talk of the top of the line 911 successor as a "depreciating asset"
    Don't get me wrong - of course I'm aware that any car is a depreciating asset from an accounting point of view. For me psychologically it does not even belong into any asset category at all - it's not a capital expenditure, it's an expense - but an expense that you should be able to APPRECIATE each time you turn the ignition key. If you wouldn't be able to really feel this kind of - emotional - appreciation, then you're better off putting your extra money into a REAL asset (in terms of accounting) and get your smiles from the latest account slip (or, well, sometimes a stomach ulcer) - so far for the emotional part.

    As for the financial advise:
    I would not go so far to accuse somebody recommending to apply the "5%-rule" of not being able to enjoy his car like an enthusiast, but I'd say such rules (especially if using percentages instead of $$-numbers) are not for everybody:
    I cannot speak of the US, but here in Germany the whole car-industry would run out of business, if all consumers would play to this rule. On the other hand I know quite some people whose garages would burst from all the CGTs Enzos etc. they would have to buy in order to come close to the 5%-rule at least. So basically it all depends on your individual financial situation and your individual concept of life.

    Most important part of KKeating's post in this regard is "since my family is taken care of"
    Once you feel that your family would not have to sacrify a single thing of their way of living even if your car would be totalled right after the pick up in Zuffenhausen (holy Ferry may beware) WITHOUT receiving one single cent from the insurance for whatever reason - then (and only then) go for whatever car you want. On the other hand if you finance the purchase always make sure, that the outstanding debt never exceeds the residiual value (think of high depreciation in the car's first and second year). Just in case your financial situation would go south quickly you don't want to fire-sale other assets or even worse further minimise your family's monthly income to cover the remaining debt from your car-purchase.

    I guess these rules are rather simple and everybody making a couple of 100 k p.a. should be able to use an Excel-sheet for some basic computations.

    Even if money is no object I could not imagine to buy a 997TT and a 997GT3 at the same time as they should be too similar in terms of the car's concept and my butt would fit into one of these beauties at the same time anyway (would be a different story if discussing 997TT + Cayenne for example).



    PJ ,

    Nice post ....

    throt..

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    throt said:
    PJ ,

    Nice post ....

    throt..



    Just trying to give you some good advise, bud
    OT: did you already decide 997 S vs 997 tt - you might change your signature into "I do it again" soon

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    As for the financial advise:
    I would not go so far to accuse somebody recommending to apply the "5%-rule" of not being able to enjoy his car like an enthusiast, but I'd say such rules (especially if using percentages instead of $$-numbers) are not for everybody:
    I cannot speak of the US, but here in Germany the whole car-industry would run out of business, if all consumers would play to this rule. On the other hand I know quite some people whose garages would burst from all the CGTs Enzos etc. they would have to buy in order to come close to the 5%-rule at least. So basically it all depends on your individual financial situation and your individual concept of life.




    I think this "5% rule" really should apply towards high-end sports cars which are really a luxury (Porsche/Ferrari). There are people here in the US who purchase vehicles worth more than their net worth. I would imagine that the number of people who do this is fairly high. I doubt that this is unique for the US. Like in Germany, the auto industry wouldn't fare too well if everybody subscribed to a 5% rule.

    As an aside, I talked to my apartment manager when I first lived in Newport Beach who told me of all of the tenants who owned Mercedes/BMW's and who had otherwise little or no net worth. Forget the 5% rule here, we are talking about 100% to 1000% and up.

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    throt said:
    PJ ,

    Nice post ....

    throt..



    Just trying to give you some good advise, bud
    OT: did you already decide 997 S vs 997 tt - you might change your signature into "I do it again" soon



    And thankyou for it ,,, bud ..

    Just going to wait and see the whole 997 range , thus in the meantime things are brewing , in the way of that secret Porsche fund which is building further on the quiet . So "yes" the TT could be the one , we will see .

    Also I was thinking that if I can make that date , why not hire an 997 for the weekend , it wont be cheap but it'll be a bloody good demo ..

    Easy bud...

    throt...

    Re: 997tt or 997 GT3 or BOTH??? Financial Question

    Oh yes ,, so it should be ,

    ""I wanna do it""


     
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