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    Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Did somebody read the latest Lotus Exige Supertest in the latest Sport Auto issue? I wonder why I need such a lightweight car without airbag, without real comfort and without a very powerful engine if I get such a bad performance.


    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Describe performance?

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:
    RC said:
    I wonder why I need such a lightweight car without airbag, without real comfort and without a very powerful engine if I get such a bad performance.



    Because you want a real sportscar and not a Porker! Did I mention it also looks better?

    Have you actually driven an Elise? It is hard not to smile like an idiot after driving it.

    Rumor has it that the Elise is completing the Barber Motorsports track 5 sec faster than a sport pack equipped 996. In the hands of PDE instructors!

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    I suppose for around $45k USD, you can have a handling experience very close to that of the 996 GT3 (US Elise + sport package). I turn 20 yrs. old next month and cannot yet afford a GT3 (bad excuse eh Moogle?). Probably too hardcore for many of this board, but many Americans here are considering it as a weekend toy, including some expecting a CGT. By your standards RC, I can understand the lack of straight line performance. BTW, the Exige that sells in Europe is identical to the U.S. Elise with sport package, sans the aerodynamic pieces. I also hear Lotus is developing a supercharging kit to address the power issue. Personally, I find the car fun to drive.

    If you trust the British press
    Exige, GT3RS, 360CS, M400 Test

    How did it compare to the Boxster S btw? Surely the Elise is more of a competitor for the Boxster than 911.

    - J

    PS: If you think mapes is somehow biased, it's true. However, he is a big fan of the 996 GT3 and it resides on his shopping list (of cars that he can afford ).

    mapes,
    RC has driven a VX220 Turbo I believe and didn't like it.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Did somebody read the latest Lotus Exige Supertest in the latest Sport Auto issue? I wonder why I need such a lightweight car without airbag, without real comfort and without a very powerful engine if I get such a bad performance.



    The Elise was never about 'real comfort' or 'powerful engines' and certainly not 'airbags' (the US has fixed that one though!). Every other car manufacturer offers these in varying degrees if that's what you want.

    The Elise and all of its derivatives were designed purely around chassis dynamics, of which it has no peer for the price, especially in terms of response and feedback.

    Get up at 6am on a Sunday morning in summer and nail one through the mountains and you'll get the point of it.

    Is it a great 'all-round' car? - Certainly not. But that's what less focused cars like Porsches are for aren't they?

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    I would also add that Porsche makes the full lot in the 911 range, from C4S Cab w/ Tip to the 911 GT3 RS...

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    I agree, but the Elise is probably best compared to the Boxster than the 911.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Did somebody read the latest Lotus Exige Supertest in the latest Sport Auto issue? I wonder why I need such a lightweight car without airbag, without real comfort and without a very powerful engine if I get such a bad performance.



    As stated above - what do you mean by performance? And have you driven one lately? I never stop smilling for all the fun I have. Few people can actually drive their Porsche well enough to match that. But then again some people prefer driving on the highway at full speed - for which I agree the Elise is ill suited.

    TEE

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    hello chaps, i have owned both.... 3 elises, a 996 gt3 and now a c2 as i wait for my 997s... all i can say is a couple of things.

    1) no disrespect rc, but anyone who makes comments like yours are uninformed. i dont know how much you know (or how little) about dynamics or how much time you have 'really' spent on track but you simply cant replicate the sportscar driving experience of an elise in a porsche (on the road or track) and thats specificaly because of weight (or rather lack of).

    2) a well driven elise is easily a match for any recent 911 (forget boxter it wont keep up) bar a gt3 or TT on track... except on a v v fast track. i had no problems at monza doing this and i have tracked all my cars btw (bar my c2 - i use a rotaxmax instead now, its a cheaper way of doing things ), and not occasionally, just a liiiiitle bit more than that.

    they are 2 very different products so, almost uncomparable. the lotus is the real sports car the porsche being a 'gt' (gt3 excluded but tt included).

    both in my opinion are the best at what they do in their respective feilds. hence the reason why iam loyal to both marques.

    btw- if yoou are really interested the gt3 is the quickest by a margin (including exige)especially under breaking but my cousins elise with a honda vetch in it (only 200bhp) was quicker still (he has a 360 and says its more fun to drive - doesnt sound half a nice tho, and i agree).

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    I can also back up BOBO's claims, having owned and tracked both a 996 GT3 and a Lotus Exige, each for more than 2 years. The driving feel and experience of the Exige just can't be beaten (it is a clear but fine difference), and it's entry and mid-corner speed is far higher than the GT3. It is really let down by poor torque (and hence acceleration) pulling out of corners, where the GT3 excelled.

    Both cars are awesome! If I only had a single car to live with, the GT3 would be it, bcause it is more livable, but having a weekday 996 and a weekend Lotus would be even better.

    Of course, this is primarily at speeds under 200kph, so isn't really applicable for Germany. The Lotus just doesn't have the power and starts to feel strained at about 220kph. But that's fine for me, as there is only one track in Australia which has a 220kph corner (Eastern Ck, Turn 1) and I love pulling 30m ahead of GT3's through there :-) (or more accurately, regaining the 30m I lost down the straight!)

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    ha ha ha... Matt i know EXACTLY what you mean mate


    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    The drive feel and drive performance are two pairs of shoes as we say here. Of course a lightweight car feels sportier and faster and many people prefer such a setup because it makes them feel to be faster but the challenge is to be fast in a heavier car, not in a toy car.
    And now please don't start a F1 comparison because the F1 is a completely different story. Show me a Lotus Exige/Elise with 600 HP or more...

    I hate to say this but if somebody says he is faster in a Lotus Exige or Elise than a GT3 MK2 on the track, he can't drive.
    Drive feel? Take a VW Beetle (the old) one and put a 911 engine with 200 HP inside and you have all the drive feel you want. But drive feel doesn't help much if it doesn't improve performance too.

    A few facts (I've chosen Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs because this is no high speed track):
    Lotus Exige ("fixed roof" version)
    Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs 1 min 16,5 sec
    (for comparison: GT3 MK2 1 min 13,2 sec)

    Lotus Elise 111R
    Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs 1 min 16,5 sec.
    (GT3 MK2 1 min 13,2 sec)

    Lotus Elise 111s (145 HP version)
    Hockenheim Kleiner Kurs 1 min 19,9 sec.
    (just for comparison: Porsche Cayenne Turbo 1 min 20,3 sec )

    Of course you have fun in this car, for a fraction of a second when you pass through twists and turns but hey, does somebody know a track which is made of twists and turns only? And due to the fact that this car has no ESP to save your bu.., most people aren't capable of using it's fully capabilities anyway.
    I drove the open Exige and I drove the Elise 111R. I liked them, like I like motorcycles and it was fun to drive them.
    But if somebody puts a GT3 and a Lotus Elise/Exige one next to each other and tells me "choose one", I'd go for the GT3 immediately.
    The Elise/Exige are nice toys but nothing more.
    I prefer to have the same fun in a car with airbags, A/C and even some comfort left, not to speak about the high speed capabilitiy which is very important here in Germany.
    Fun? I'd have more fun on a Hayabusa if we're talking about fun. But I guess I'm getting old, I prefer Motocross bikes and Enduros only.

    Regarding the VX220 Turbo (called Opel Speedster Turbo over here): again, a very nice toy. But I can get the same and more out of a real sportscar.

    Maybe I should offend now even more people by saying what a friend of mine said when he bought one (111R): the poor man's Porsche. Of course my friend isn't poor but his wife gave him a limit on how much he could spend for a fun car, 50000 Euro. Finding a used GT3 for 50000 Euro was impossible.

    BTW: Horst von Saurma, SPORT AUTO editor also was very disappointed with the Exige.
    One problem seems to be the weight...907 kg compared to a car tested back in 2000...796 kg.
    Another problem seems to be the bad aerodynamics (Cayenne Turbo is better... ) due to the increased downforce and the pretty lame Toyota engine.
    And the max. lateral acceleration is "only" 1.2 g despite the fact that the car was equipped with Yokohama Advan A048 sport tires.
    The only thing which seems to be good is the brake, now surprisingly with ABS.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    I think you are looking at it wrong. The Elise and such cars are not about absolute laps times or allroad versatily. They are about real sportcar feel, drive and experience. The Elise is superior to a GT3 in the chasis aspect and handling due to it stiff alum chasis, light curb weight, and setup... but the down side is the engine. The Elise et al are so down on power that it renders any track lap time comparison uselees for drawing any conclusion, like Hockenheim which while being no nurburgring, it is WAY too fast for comaparing lap times with a car with so low HP. You showed the best exmaple for this, the 2.5ton air suspesnsion high sprung slush-box Cayenne can lap 1,20,3 at Hockenheim due to its 450HP while the agile mid-engines track tunned Elise with 145HP can only manage a 1,19,9 Is the Cayenne a sportcar or fun at the track? The agile Boxster 2,7 with 228HP does it in 1,19,4 also, with 83HP more than the Elise, is the Boxster poor performing also then?

    And about the aerodinamics being worse than the Cayenne, I beg to differ, the difference is that most of the Elise's drag is due to its downforce and aeridinamic performance and the Cayenne's is useless drag because its shaped like a brick. I'd take the Elise's drag than the Cayenne's anyday, for these lightweight track oriented sportcars, top speed is not a priority since they don't even have the HP for it, so they value aerodinamic aids for performance in the twisties over overall drag and high speed acceleration and top speed.

    You can't compare a GT3 with an Elise cause its apples to oranges. The challenge is not to be fast with a heavier car, otherwise we should just add 500kg to out 996's for a challenge. The real challenge IMO is to be faster with a "sportier" car, ie. GT3 vs C4S or GT2 vs 996TT, ot an Elise vs a FWD Copper S. And the Elise doesn't feel faster, it IS fast, if you can drive it well at the limit since its not an easy car at the limit, its just that it is fast in he corners were the fun it, not in the straights

    I think lightweight sportcars deserve more respect than "Toy Cars", their only problem is that their use is very limited, they are not versatile cars. They are great for twisty mountain roads and track but not for the rest like highway driving, practicality, daily user, space, etc. These are second or third cars for the garage, used for certain ocasions. If you want all that in one, you need to pay more and get a GT3 which does all that together better, there is no doubt the GT3 is a superior car, faster at most tracks while being a conventional size and use car, but then we get into a different class altogether.

    Not to mention sportbikes, thats a whole different world in terms of fun, but then you trade off much more with them, you need certain physical shape, they are much harder to drive fast than cars so not for everybody, they are more dangerous, they are much more uncofortable, they are much less versatile, no luggage space, etc, etc, etc.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    hi RC, i can only talk about my own experience with both types of car... i can spend all day pulling up lap times which show a standard s1 elise quicker round a given circuit than a 996 c2 or visa versa. its neither here nor there... and they arnt particulary good examples you used, i would hope my old gt3 was quicker round ANY track than my elises otherwise i would be asking for my money back , so nothing new there. furthermore try 10 non stop laps on a tight circuit in yr cayenne and see if the brakes still work so i think using that as an example is such a good idea either, no.... my point was simply....

    you will find from those of us who track cars regularly and who are fortunate enough to have owned both marques that probably saying 'such a bad performance' in the same sentence as exige and elise derives from a lack of experience and or understanding.

    like i said both are the best in their respective fields, i wouldnt want to tour round europe in an elise but i would rather drive it round a track rather than my c2. the gt3 was the best at everything FULL STOP, the car is GOD himself as far as iam concerned

    i appologise if iam being direct, its just the way i am...but... vive la difference after all, i would never buy a cayenne (because i dont understand why it actually exists) and it sounds like you would never buy a lotus and consider it a poor mans porsche i but i think you have to give credit where its due.

    PS - i agree with one thing, the latest lotus varients (which iam disapointed with) suffer the same as that of the recent porsches they are all too heavy, but thats EU and US safty regs for you

    i hope you dont consider me rude, debate is good for the soul i look forward to the reply:t

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    While I certainly respect RC's opinion on this matter, I really believe that his perspective might be different than mine due to his ability (and pleasure) to drive at very high speeds legally in Germany. Here in the States, we don't enjoy the same pleasure (although I have risked my license and freedom more than I should have over the years). There is no way to go very fast without lots of power as power/weight ratio doesn't matter once aerodynamics is the main inhibitor to speed over about 100mph. As an owner of a lightweight 911 (1,890 lbs or 859kg) which is not underpowered (240hp gives better power/weight ratio than GT3), I enjoy driving this car FAR more than any other Porsche I have owned (which weighed 2,350 lb 911S, 3,000 lb 944 Turbo S, 3,200 lb 993C2 and 3,200 lb 996C2 3.6L). For reference, my laptimes are:

    911S 2.4L - 1:24
    993 Varioram- 1:23
    996 3.6L - 1:20
    951S - 1:18 (car had engine and suspension upgrades)
    Carrera RS 2.7 - 1:17 (car is track prepped but street legal)

    The difference in times between my RS and 951S is not that huge (turbo power in hi-altitude helps alot), but the driving feeling is SOOOOOO much more involving with the RS!

    I really believe it is the lightweight which imparts so much feel and feedback. When a car becomes light enough, it is also very manageable without things like power steering and power brakes (especially a rear engined car). This, along with the weight loss adds tremendously to the connected feeling one has to the car. It is my biggest regret that cars continue to become heavier and heavier, so I applaud the new Elise (even if they did add power brakes and 200 lbs to the US version). I hope people will drive a car like this even if they have no interest in buying one, just to see what some of us are whining about

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Sorry RC, but I think this whole discussion is ridiculous. The Elise 111R and Exige are about half of the price of a new Mk2. GT3! Compare it to the -still more expensive - C2 (320hp and sport package) and you have a different picture : 1:17.1 on the Hockenheim Shorttrack.

    Anyways, I agree with you on two points - the Porsche for example is usable for far more things than the Exige or Elise and the power issue is still the main deficit of these cars. If you install the Honda 2-litre engine (which Honda doesn't supply to Lotus) or the Audi 1.8-Turbo the picture would be a lot better! And then there is even more fun in these funcars!

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Apparently the old Exige did 1.14,8 on Hockenheim, so apparently they are regressing!

    Seems like it's just a difference in driving priorities. For SoCal driving, the things you need are low weight, good brakes, and good tires. The 111R is a poor choice for German drivers, but it's British afterall. I'm going to have to agree with Ferdie, and ask you to compare the car to a Boxster S in terms of dynamics and lap times if you prefer. The Elise is still the baby car for Lotus and it would be more fair to wait until Lotus releases their mid-level concept and the new Esprit (450hp, at least 600 .lbs less than 996TT) before making comparisons. Let's not use the argument of the Boxster not being a real Porsche, because it is in the same market segment as the 111R. If Germans are so embarassed by the 986/987, they shouldn't put their badge on it!

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Great post, carlos, as usual. You said so many of the things I would have wanted to. I take my (imaginary) hat off to you.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Great post!! This is exactly the question I pose myself when wondering if I should trade my Elise for a GT3 or get an Honda engine...

    Just one little story. Did a passanger lap in a GT2 at Donnington and although the lap overall was properly faster than my Elise - have to say I found it outright boring. I like the way the little toy drives and how you can slide it around turns, brake extremely late, etc. And even after 30 min I was still going strong when the GT2 guy had to slow down to cool his brakes!

    But as others have said I have also drove the GT3 on track and it rocks (imagine how great the RS is) but at the end it is just different!!

    P.S. RC I read this Autosport report and either they had a bad car or something else because other reports of the new Exige have been very positive.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    It just goes to show that the Elise should only be compared to the Boxster, not any 911. Because Lotus builds such focused cars there aren't many competitors in this very limited segment of the market. The GT3 is the most natural comparison though because of its deliberate track bias, like the Elise (Exige more so) and that's why the magazines compare the two so often.

    Any comparison between the Cayenne and the Elise (or any Lotus for that matter) is comical. You may as well compare Kate Moss with Norbet Haug. No car has any business being over 2 ton and despite its incredible performance and engineering prowess it is nowhere near in the same catagory as the Exige. It's awesome for lugging around the family though.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Maybe I should offend now even more people by saying what a friend of mine said when he bought one (111R): the poor man's Porsche.



    Now you sound like nberry. Is Porsche a 'poor man''s Ferrari'?

    As we say in the US, different strokes for different folks. Some people like top speed in a straight line, some of us like top speed in corners.

    RC is right, if you want a GT, Porsche makes much better examples.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:
    mapes said:
    Now you sound like nberry. Is Porsche a 'poor man''s Ferrari'?

    As we say in the US, different strokes for different folks. Some people like top speed in a straight line, some of us like top speed in corners.

    RC is right, if you want a GT, Porsche makes much better examples.



    Why? At the time I bought my 996 Turbo back in 2000, I could have had a 360 Modena for less money.
    And how much does the GT2 cost? How much does the Carrera GT cost?

    Regarding drive feel: what is more challenging than to drive a 2.5 ton Cayenne Turbo on the track? Driving light weight cars with low power engines is a joke in my eyes. It gives the drivers the feeling to be fast but feelings can mislead.

    Motorcycles are a very good example: my neighbor has a Kawasaki limited to 27 HP. He drives a BMW family car and whenever he enjoys his bike, he is in heaven. Lately I stand beside him at a red light in my Cayenne Turbo (remember...the 2.5 ton monster). We both accelerated from standstill and at around 120 kph he was half of a car length behind me...and pretty shocked.
    I drove his Kawasaki too, it feels ten times faster than my Cayenne. Got it?

    Give me a Lotus Exige with 300 HP at the same weight.
    Then, I might agree. But right now, the Lotus Elise/Exige or whatever are just toy cars or cars which bring a lot of fun to their owners but who aren't actually real sportscars.

    And another thing: from my own experiene, I think most Porsche drivers who drive their Porsche on the track (especially GT3, GT2 and Turbo owners) don't drive at full potential (whether it is due to the driver's limited potential or because they don't want to damage their cars).

    I don't say I don't like the Elise/Exige, I just say that they're disappointing because they aren't actually more than a bike with 4 wheels. So I'd prefer to own a Hayabusa (which I wouldn't because I'd surely kill myself sooner or later) and a GT3 and not a Elise/Exige.

    It is not my intention to bash Lotus (I always loved the Esprit since I was a kid) but their products are not what I call a real sportscar. Maybe a track or weekend toy for big boy racers but nothing more. And if I had the money to own several cars at the same time, I might have a Lotus Exige in my garage too. Well, maybe.
    And since their cars also gained weight over the past few years, I really don't understand why someone would buy them. Well...getting back to the poor man's Porsche.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    I think I will leave this argument where it is, but I still don't understand why it's not a real sports car, other than the lack of power.

    I can understand the disappointment compared to a $110k Porsche, but compared to any other $45k sports car out there? What would you rather buy in the U.S.? (not for flat Florida)

    It is priced to be in the Boxster/Boxster S segment. It seems to outperform both until you get into autobahn territory, so I believe then that you feel the 986/987 is a complete joke as well. Is that the true poor man's Porsche?

    Why did your friend buy the 111R and not a Boxster?

    In the U.S., Turbos were never cheaper than the F360 unless there was a big difference in miles on the car. So you can see why mapes makes his comment.

    - J

    PS: If you want fun and cheap, then a 125cc shifter kart is still the best bet. Make things very difficult for almost any sports car. But middle aged dentists would be embarassed to be seen in one of these right?

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    You don't fool me RC, I know you are just bashing the Elise because what you secretly love is the SMART ROADSTER! and the Elise makes your secret love look like a joke

    Don't try to deny it RC, you were caught on camera, see!!

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:
    carlos fromspain said:
    Don't try to deny it RC, you were caught on camera, see!!



    Brilliant!

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    RC, I thought you just didn't get the Lotus Elise, but you do after all..........


    Quote:
    RC said:
    .... the Lotus Elise/Exige or whatever are just cars which bring a lot of fun to their owners ..............




    So where's the problem?

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:
    RC said: So I'd prefer to own a Hayabusa (which I wouldn't because I'd surely kill myself sooner or later) and a GT3 and not a Elise/Exige.




    The Hayabusa is a great bike in a straight line. In a corner it will lose out to my Ducati. Knowledgeable sportbike riders realize that it is not a well balanced sportbike. It's the motorcycle equivalent of the old Viper.

    Since the Elise will out perform a standard 911, is it still not a real sportscar? Maybe the standard 911 is also considered a joke by your standards?

    Your comment about weight gain in the Elise is also a bit puzzling to me. Since when is a 1975 lb car considered overweight? The Elise meets the more stringent safety AND emmissions requirements found in the US. Naturally it gained some weight in the process.

    While you're having fun on the Autobahn in your 450hp truck, I'll be smiling like an idiot in my 190hp toy whilst blasting through the countless California canyon roads.

    Different strokes for different folks.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    RC, I have great respect for you and this forum. And everything you had said up until this Lotus thread was basically 100% correct. But to say that the Elise is not a real sports car, this is just wrong. I have a 340R which is a more extreme Elise and its a sports car. There is just no way to argue around that. Its not a GT, but its certainly a sports car. Its not just about figures and 'ring times. Its about the feeling the car gives you. And in this respect the elise is one of the all time greats.

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    Quote:


    Now you sound like nberry



    I was thinking the same - RC the "Porsche nberry" - Come on Christian you know better!

    I like most of your comments on such a wide range of topics but here you're simply of your mark

    But we like you anyway

    Re: Lotus Exige SPORT AUTO Supertest - Disappointing

    I love the 340R!!! Congrats!!!
    Certainly one of the purest sports cars out there. Credits to Lotus for actually building that road legal Go Kart!

     
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