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    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Cayman S as best performing model (even on par with Cayenne sales) - quite impressive
    Of course a kind of launch effect (pre-ordered cars) might have have boosted the numbers (as with all new models), but even though one cannot deny that the croc had a head start into the sportscar djungle.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    If I was Porsche I would be greatly concerned about these numbers. Look at them closely and you will find that the 911 is not doing very well. They made up the short fall by not listing any Cab sales for the prior year and make the numbers look better than what they really are. Also, the Boxster sales were significantly lower which I assume is directly related to the Cayman.

    Finally Cayman sales look good but we do not know whether sales are to customers or dealerships. As an introductory model, it will get more interest. Whether the car has "legs" will remain to be seen.

    BTW the 997TT will save their bacon termporarily. However, it also will take a hit after the first year.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    That is surprising, although I do wonder whether PCNA counts sales to customers or sales to dealers in these figures.
    What surprises me more is the very low figure for "approved" used car sales. It seems to support my impression that my (US) dealer will not be very interested in buying my car back from me, even as a trade.
    I have the feeling that things are very different in the UK and used car sales there are just as important as new to the OPCs, if not more so. But in the UK they do not have a row of new cars ready to drive away.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    If I was Porsche I would be greatly concerned about these numbers.



    But Nick aren't you concerned about Porsche numbers since years

    I hope you didn't buy some put-options on Porsche stock a couple of years ago to make some money from your predictions

    As for the 997 cabs: no it's not a marketing-trick not to show any cab-sales for January '05 - there is a fairly good reason to do so - guess what reason (caution: this is a trick question)

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Yes, we still need to wait a while before we actually know how the Cayman will do in the long run. I do think the Cayman stole sales from both the 997 and Boxster....more so on the Boxster side though. None of that is really surprising to me.....pretty much exactly what I thought it would do. There will always be 911 owners with a few prosepective owners buying a Cayman instead. It also confirms that a *lot* of people like the idea of a hard top coupe on the Boxster platform and had no use for a drop top.....myself included. I think Porsche did exactly what they wanted to do.....grab the people that didn't want either a 997 or Boxster.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Anyone have figures for what the Boxster (987) did in it's first month for comparison?

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Yep, had the same idea and just checked PAG's press releases:

    Jan - 492
    Feb - 564
    Mar - 789
    Apr - 1,026
    May - 1,051
    Jun - 869
    Jul - n/a
    Aug - 661
    Sep - 476
    Oct - 571
    Nov - 436

    987 was launched mid-January '05 - so only two weeks counting (but same applies to Cayman's launch).

    Of course it's not an apple to apple comparison, as the Boxster existed before (986) and lot of first time Boxster owners may have opted to go pre-owned (nice discounts on young or almost "new" 986's) whereas the mid-engined Coupé was offered for the first time ever with people queueing up right after it became official that Porsche would build the car.

    Nevertheless the figures indicate, that Cayman had a good start in the US (I think for Germany PAG reported some 500-600 units for launch-month December). Still I don't know how many of these cars have gone to the dealerships and how many to customers (assuming consistency in PAG's reporting policies, this logic would be true for the reported Boxster-sales as well).

    I guess we have to wait for a couple of months or even longer to judge whether the demand for the Cayman would be sustainable.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    If I was Porsche I would be greatly concerned about these numbers. Look at them closely and you will find that the 911 is not doing very well. They made up the short fall by not listing any Cab sales for the prior year and make the numbers look better than what they really are. Also, the Boxster sales were significantly lower which I assume is directly related to the Cayman.

    Finally Cayman sales look good but we do not know whether sales are to customers or dealerships. As an introductory model, it will get more interest. Whether the car has "legs" will remain to be seen.

    BTW the 997TT will save their bacon termporarily. However, it also will take a hit after the first year.



    Nick, Nick, Nick, always twisting the numbers. In January 2005, 620 911s were sold. This year, 810 911s were sold. Not a bad increase in sales. And as a lawyer, you know companies can report only actual sales. How many companies have gotten in trouble for trying to report non-sales with sales?

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    I believe PAG/PCNA has officially stated that it counts a US sale to the dealer when the car leaves the PDI center; it used to be when the car arrived at the dealer' lot. The numbers should reflect this, not sales to end users.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    "I believe PAG/PCNA has officially stated that it counts a US sale to the dealer when the car leaves the PDI center; it used to be when the car arrived at the dealer' lot. The numbers should reflect this, not sales to end users. "

    If that is so the numbers are pretty meaningless.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    KenH said:

    If that is so the numbers are pretty meaningless.



    Ultimately, sales to dealers are all that counts. When a car leaves the PDI center, it should have already been paid for by the dealer. At this point, Porsche has made its money on the car, more or less. There are aftermarket considerations, but the dealer seems to make most of that money.

    It's true that cars stacking up on dealer lots are bad, but often this is a self correcting phenomenon, as dealers should order less cars in the following months. Or Porsche allocates them less cars to order. That is the theory anyway.

    Anyway, over the long term, cars sold (cars that have left the PDI) are all that counts. However, the other considerations do affect this in some sense, but counting only cars sold to customers does not tell the whole story.

    - Justin

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    Justin said:
    It's true that cars stacking up on dealer lots are bad, but often this is a self correcting phenomenon, as dealers should order less cars in the following months. Or Porsche allocates them less cars to order. That is the theory anyway.

    - Justin



    Right, it's more a matter of how quick cars at the dealers' lot would be converted into end user cars - the next couple of months will show..

    BTW over here in Germany you can check how many cars have been REGISTERED (with carplates) - that includes the dealerships' demo cars (84 Porsche dealerships all over Germany), but not the cars just sitting in the showroom.

    Here are the numbers: launch date was end of November. Statistic data from the central registration authority says: 53 registrations in December BUT 406 cars for total year 2005 (indicating that first Caymans have been registered in September '05). Now I'm wondering whether all these cars registered from Sept.-Nov. (before official presentation at the dealerships) could be factory cars deployed all over Europe for journalist test drives etc.

    Somehow reminds me of the old saying: don't believe in statistics which you don't have faked by yourself

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    "It's true that cars stacking up on dealer lots are bad, but often this is a self correcting phenomenon, as dealers should order less cars in the following months. Or Porsche allocates them less cars to order. That is the theory anyway."

    It depends on the contracts between the dealers and Porsche.
    When I was in the motor industry dealers for the manufacturer I worked for had to agree to take a certain number for the year - and they got them whether or not they were selling.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    "Ultimately, sales to dealers are all that counts. When a car leaves the PDI center, it should have already been paid for by the dealer. At this point, Porsche has made its money on the car, more or less. "

    Ultimately, to Porsche, in the short-term that is true. But if the cars don't sell on to end-users then the figures become meaningless.
    What we don't know is how many of the "sold" cars are actually sold to end-users. I think it is a reasonable assumption that a high proportion of 997s have already been sold to end-users and, (at the moment at least) a much lower proportion of Cayennes are pre-sold. Probably a smaller proportion of Boxsters are pre-sold too as dealers are happy to have a few in stock.
    What we have no feel for yet is the proportion of Caymans that are pre-sold.
    That should become apparent in the next few months.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    vtrader said:
    Quote:
    nberry said:
    If I was Porsche I would be greatly concerned about these numbers. Look at them closely and you will find that the 911 is not doing very well. They made up the short fall by not listing any Cab sales for the prior year and make the numbers look better than what they really are. Also, the Boxster sales were significantly lower which I assume is directly related to the Cayman.

    Finally Cayman sales look good but we do not know whether sales are to customers or dealerships. As an introductory model, it will get more interest. Whether the car has "legs" will remain to be seen.

    BTW the 997TT will save their bacon termporarily. However, it also will take a hit after the first year.



    Nick, Nick, Nick, always twisting the numbers. In January 2005, 620 911s were sold. This year, 810 911s were sold. Not a bad increase in sales. And as a lawyer, you know companies can report only actual sales. How many companies have gotten in trouble for trying to report non-sales with sales?



    Not so. If you exclude the Cab sales (they were not counted last year because they were introduced in March/April ) you will note that the 997 and 997S had an appreciable decline from year to year. My prediction of the 997 sales tanking is right on track.

    However with every number there is hope. Consider that 997's will be discounted even more than they are now and( something close to my heart) less of them.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    KenH said:
    That is surprising, although I do wonder whether PCNA counts sales to customers or sales to dealers in these figures.
    What surprises me more is the very low figure for "approved" used car sales. It seems to support my impression that my (US) dealer will not be very interested in buying my car back from me, even as a trade.
    I have the feeling that things are very different in the UK and used car sales there are just as important as new to the OPCs, if not more so. But in the UK they do not have a row of new cars ready to drive away.



    Are these numbers cars sold to customers or launch cars which have been registered to the dealerships?

    Just for the book: german dealers have almost all a Cayman or two in stock for immediate delivery, so maybe all this Cayman "hype" is more of a US thing.

    BTW, Nick: I don't know about the US but in Germany, the 911 sells very well. The C4/C4S models are actually "sold out" until next model year and it would be a huge surprise if somebody could get a new 997 Turbo before the factory re-opens after the summer vacation shutdown if he didn't pre-order one many months ago.

    Right now I think Porsche is more worrying about the Cayenne but this shouldn't be a problem either because the facelift (and a pretty substantial one) comes in 2007.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    As I wrote before, the 997 TT will temporarily increase the 997 sales. I am not sure why Porsche would want to limit initial production. They do not need to artificially create a market for it. However maybe Porsche is becoming sensitive to some of the recent criticism levied at the 911. That is, as one car magazine phrased it, " It seems likes everybody already has one"

    Not good for a $150,000 car because only the true Porsche enthusiast can tell the difference between a TT, 997 or Cayman for that matter.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    True, what's even more bizarre is that if you want an interesting, fun German built (by Kaman) coupe or convertible with a supercharged 3.2l, 330 hp six cylinder(Mercedes) engine, it's not the Boxster or Cayman it's the Chrysler Crossfire SRT6. I drove one of these on a track, both autocross and road course, and it performs very well. Not a Porsche, but you are talking about a $45,000 car nicely equipped and not one you see very much on the road.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Not good for a $150,000 car because only the true Porsche enthusiast can tell the difference between a TT, 997 or Cayman for that matter.



    Yeah, Nick...I'm sure that most people know the difference between a F348, F355, F360 and F430 when they see one. It is even worse: when a Ferrari isn't red, a lot of people think it is some sort of rice burner. I had this funny "encounter" twice over the past few days, we had a light blue colored F360 in the hotel garage and I listened to the comments of the people walking by. Most of these people being intellectuals and/or pretty wealthy people.

    Today when I drove back home from Austria, I had a lot of traffic. I watched the cars and people outside carefully (since we were driving pretty slow, especially around Garmisch-Partenkirchen) and to my surprise, our Cayenne Turbo attracted a lot of looks (which actually does bother me because I don't like it to be starred at). Then, I started to watch the other cars around me more closely and to my surprise, there were TONS of new BMW 5 series, Audi A4/A6, Mercedes A and C class, VW Passats, VW Golfs and so on. During my trip, I saw a single Porsche 996 C4 and two Cayenne S, one of them in the hotel garage. But I saw TONS of BMWs, Mercedes, VW, Audi and whatever.

    So even in the country of Porsche, Porsche cars are pretty seldom on the street and Germany is the second largest market for Porsche after the US. Your "problem" is that you're living in a region where a lot of wealthy people are living and cars like a BMW 7 series, Mercedes S class and maybe even Porsche 911/Boxster became pretty "common".
    Well, good for you. But the truth is: I wish my "common high production" car would attract less attention than it does right now. But some people need some sort of "compensation" for their lack of lets call it "mojo" (greetings to Austin Powers ) or whatever. I still have my own hair, I still have some quality time with my wife, I still have a decent weight wich doesn't make my bath scale explode and I still have some self-esteem and self-conscience that I don't need to attract the attention of other people with a car. Sorry. And if you're claiming now that you bought your Ferrari solely for YOUR personal enjoyment, I don't believe you. Otherwise you wouldn't brag all the time about looks, production numbers, etc.

    To each his own like I always say.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    You have the last word. However, for the record, I am 5'11 1/2", weigh 180 pds and have all my hair which is all black.

    Also, I am VERY comfortable within my skin.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    You have the last word. However, for the record, I am 5'11 1/2", weigh 180 pds and have all my hair which is all black.

    Also, I am VERY comfortable within my skin.



    Nick, I didn't want to get personal, sorry, I saw a picture of you and I know that. I just wanted to speculate about some of the reasons somebody would like to attract attention but of course I'm not shrink.
    Maybe you just love the beauty of this car but I think I have a little bit of a point in my previous post, even if it may not be valid for you.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    KenH said:
    "I believe PAG/PCNA has officially stated that it counts a US sale to the dealer when the car leaves the PDI center; it used to be when the car arrived at the dealer' lot. The numbers should reflect this, not sales to end users. "

    If that is so the numbers are pretty meaningless.



    This is the US where only end sales to customers can be reported.

    From the press release:
    "We are thrilled with our customers' reception of the Cayman S," said Peter Schwarzenbauer, PCNA President and CEO. "With more than 1,000 cars sold in just over two weeks, our new mid-engine sports car exceeded both our and our dealers' expectations."

    Porsche is reporting sales to customers not dealers. Remember in the US, a sale is only consider when it is to the end customer. That is the normal accounting practice in the US. How many companies have gotten in to trouble when they try to report deliveries to dealers instead of customers? I can think of several in the last year alone where their CEOs now have opulent jail cells.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    From the current issue of autoextremist.com :


    " Word from Porsche Land is not good. We're hearing from some very big and very important Porsche dealer principals that the Porsche Cayman S is as close to being dead in the water as a new car can be. "Customers come in, call it a Boxster S Coupe, see it's about ten grand more than a regular Boxster S any way you slice it, mutter something about 'why is a Coupe ten grand more than the convertible?' - and then they either start looking at the Boxster S or they walk out. Porche blew the Cayman pricing, period," was the word from one dealer we talked to who shall remain nameless. "


    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Not so. If you exclude the Cab sales (they were not counted last year because they were introduced in March/April ) you will note that the 997 and 997S had an appreciable decline from year to year. My prediction of the 997 sales tanking is right on track.

    However with every number there is hope. Consider that 997's will be discounted even more than they are now and( something close to my heart) less of them.



    That shouldn't be much concern though, as the Cabs count for more than 50% of the US-bound production. Also, while the sale is to the end-customer, not all of the customers may have been in possession of the car...

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Sounds like garbage from a dealer who didn't order enough of them and contradicts just about every other account out there....including Porsches own statements.

    First of all it's not $10k over a Boxster (at least in the US).....they could at least get the facts straight. Just sounds like someone taking a swipe at the Cayman. No wonder they remained "nameless".

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    They don't seem to be that hard to find, certainly no over-MSRP demand. The few that have been touted on eBay at a premium haven't sold, and a couple that were offered at slightly under MSRP also didn't sell. It will be interesting to see what happens this year as the supply builds.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    MKW said:
    From the current issue of autoextremist.com :


    " Word from Porsche Land is not good. We're hearing from some very big and very important Porsche dealer principals that the Porsche Cayman S is as close to being dead in the water as a new car can be. "Customers come in, call it a Boxster S Coupe, see it's about ten grand more than a regular Boxster S any way you slice it, mutter something about 'why is a Coupe ten grand more than the convertible?' - and then they either start looking at the Boxster S or they walk out. Porche blew the Cayman pricing, period," was the word from one dealer we talked to who shall remain nameless. "





    Bingo.

    Should be priced same as the Boxster S. Then you choose, convertible or more power and better handling.

    Good luck to the dealer who tries to explain the pricing to a first time Porsche buyer. Porsche might loose him for good, it is a small step to think Porsche is gouging people on the whole lineup.

    Also resale value will suffer a lot, in a few years there will be some low priced Caymans out there going for less than regular Boxsters. And the typical Cayman will care about resale value, else he probably would have gotten a 997S instead.

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    SciFrog said:
    Quote:
    MKW said:
    From the current issue of autoextremist.com :

    " Word from Porsche Land is not good. We're hearing from some very big and very important Porsche dealer principals that the Porsche Cayman S is as close to being dead in the water as a new car can be. "Customers come in, call it a Boxster S Coupe, see it's about ten grand more than a regular Boxster S any way you slice it, mutter something about 'why is a Coupe ten grand more than the convertible?' - and then they either start looking at the Boxster S or they walk out. Porche blew the Cayman pricing, period," was the word from one dealer we talked to who shall remain nameless. "





    Bingo.

    Should be priced same as the Boxster S. Then you choose, convertible or more power and better handling.

    Good luck to the dealer who tries to explain the pricing to a first time Porsche buyer. Porsche might loose him for good, it is a small step to think Porsche is gouging people on the whole lineup.

    Also resale value will suffer a lot, in a few years there will be some low priced Caymans out there going for less than regular Boxsters. And the typical Cayman will care about resale value, else he probably would have gotten a 997S instead.


    I don't understand all this fuss over Cayman pricing....think of it as a Boxster S with a "Power kit" at only $280 per additional HP, on the 997S you have to pay $650 per HP for it's "Power kit"!!

    Re: Is it selling?.....Read on....

    Quote:
    964C2 said:
    I don't understand all this fuss over Cayman pricing....think of it as a Boxster S with a "Power kit" at only $280 per additional HP, on the 997S you have to pay $650 per HP for it's "Power kit"!!



    I think $$/HP ratio is much closer as 997 power kit comes with PSE also. But even taken the PSE into account your logic would work yet.

     
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