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    PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Hi everybody could you guys please let me know what you think of pasm or -20mm lsd as i will have to spec my 997s soon i will probably never use it on trackdays , but i obviously want it to have sharp handling,(i will be ordering chrono sport after reading RCs comments on this issue)i wont be doing anymore than say 5000 miles per annum .Also does the car look visually lower with -20mm or is it impossible to notice?Thanks for all the great info on here,rennteam rocks

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Hum, RC or other's people here on the board may and are better than me to answer your questions...

    But anyway, it i was to buy i would probably go with the 20mm/LSD.

    Regarding if the car does look lower or not i think it was here on the board that someone said the diference isn't that much.

    But i could be wrong so you better wait for someone that can give you an exact answer.

    Woshhhhhhh

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Robbo,

    Glad someone else is having this dilemma - I'll be having the same one soon no doubt so I'll be keeping an eye on this thread too. (Personally I think the visual difference will be noticable - it's amazing what an apparently small drop in ride height can do for the appearence) If I can add a suplementary question - does anyone know of a way of working out if the car will clear a speedhump - I've a particularly severe one at the end of my drive that my Boxster (S, 17" wheels - normal suspension) used to clear fine but am wondering if the 20mm drop, different wheelbase/length of nose will be too much for the 997 and I'll end up grinding the nose.

    Also, have you shopped around for insurance yet to cover your trackdays - be interested to know who you approach as currently my broker doesn't deal with anyone who does and I'd love to get this baby out there once in a while....

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    I would get the -20mm w/ LSD. I shy away from unnecessary electronics and mechanical complication whenever possible. When the PASM wears out, it will be expensive to replace. Also, with the -20mm, you'll be able to change to aftermarket springs/shocks for variable ride heights and stiffness later without upsetting the computer systems (and keep the LSD which is not available any other way).

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    I would personally choose the -20mm/rear LSD due to:

    - better and sportier handling
    - versatility of future changes in suspensions, upgrades, etc. If you get the PASM, you are stuck with it for life.
    - not prone to electronic glitches, maintenance problems, repair or substitution costs unlike the newish first year production electronic PASM.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Quote:
    Rich C (UK) said:
    Robbo,

    Also, have you shopped around for insurance yet to cover your trackdays - be interested to know who you approach as currently my broker doesn't deal with anyone who does and I'd love to get this baby out there once in a while....



    I believe the Porsche Owners Club can organise insurance cover?

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    According to a chart in "MotorTrend" magazine's September issue, page 60, the ground clearances are as follow:

    997 = 4.2 inches (106.6mm)
    997S = 3.8 inches (96.5mm)
    The difference is 10mm for PASM suspension.

    997S with Sport Suspension would be another 10mm lower than with PASM.
    997 with Sport Suspension would be 20mm lower than standard

    997S = 86.5mm (3.4 inches)
    997 = 86.5mm (3.4 inches)

    If you go to the British Porsche website and click on the 911 you can find under "Highlights" a selection for "Chassis & Aerodynamics". Click on this and under this heading click on "Sport Suspension". If you roll your mouse over the three suspension settings, you can see the visual difference in height, tire clearance in wheel wells, etc. Absent having cars with all three suspension types in front of you, this is a good approximation of what you might expect.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Thanks guys for your input ,yeah i think im gonna go -20mm at moment,seems to make a visual difference too if the porsche website is accurate .Just wonder which suspension combo will sell better in the uk market and which will be most sought after when selling on ?

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    I'm guessing that either you're able to sell the car with the -20mm due to its rarity (got a feeling this could be unpopular in the UK because of the amount of speed humps), or that it might be difficult due to the above.....?

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Robbo,
    You guys are so lucky. The -20mm/LSD is not available in the US. I wish that it is. I would definitely choose -20mm/LSD over PASM.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Quote:
    robbo said:
    Thanks guys for your input ,yeah i think im gonna go -20mm at moment,seems to make a visual difference too if the porsche website is accurate .Just wonder which suspension combo will sell better in the uk market and which will be most sought after when selling on ?



    The ONLY reason I bought the 997 Carrera S right now was because of the 20 mm chassis/LSD performance. I was so impressed, so surprised because I never thought I could get this kind of handling and razor sharp handling on an "ordinary" 911. My other option was the 996 GT3 MkII which was available for immediate delivery too at the SAME price as the 997 Carrera S I've gone for (PCCB makes it pretty expensive).

    I actually wanted to wait for the 997 Turbo or maybe the 997 GT3 but the 20 mm chassis made me change my mind.
    I drive the 997 just as a fun car on the weekends, sometimes with my wife and maybe the kids but usually we're using the Cayenne as a family car. Not much Autobahn driving either, so the 20 mm chassis "serves" me much better and provides more fun than 500 HP.

    So if the 997 Carrera S is NOT your daily driver, just a fun car, go for the 20 mm chassis, it is well worth it.:)

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Can RC or somebody who tried the 997 (or 997S) w/ PASM comment on its performance and different settings? Thanks.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Quote:
    ADias said:
    Can RC or somebody who tried the 997 (or 997S) w/ PASM comment on its performance and different settings? Thanks.



    I'm sorry, I forgot completely. Yes, I testdrove PASM lately for about one hour. It works pretty well, the comfort setting is really comfortable (maybe a bit too soft for my taste) but the sport setting really is very good but I was surprised to get a different steering and curve feel than with my car because despite PASM and PCCB, the car I drove was practically the same, even including chrono sport.
    But don't get me wrong, I liked PASM. The steering feel is not that razor sharp as on the 20 mm chassis, with the advantage that it can be driven with less concentration.
    There is a slight tendency of a bit of understeer (you have to be very fast to experience it) with PASM, something I also didn't know from my 20 mm chassis but could be related to the fact that the PASM car didn't have the LSD.
    Traction was very good on the PASM car too.

    I would describe the stiffness and sportiness of the PASM system to be slightly sportier than the 996 M030 but maybe I got this feeling also because of the stickier and wider tires. Very nice is actually also the automatic adaptation to drive style. You don't have to press that damper symbol button to be sporty, as soon as you start to drive "wild", the PASM changes automatically to the sport setting.
    You can feel it right away, it works VERY fast.
    Overall I'd say that I like PASM, of course not as much as my 20 mm option with LSD but most people would probably prefer PASM over the 20 mm chassis after testdriving both because of the nervous and sharp steering/curve feel of the 20 mm chassis. I don't know but somehow it feels that the 20 mm chassis equipped car also has a different steering setup but maybe it is just the overall suspension (dampers, springs, swaybars, etc.) setup which influences the steering feel that much.
    I know that a lot of people from the US are sad because the 20 mm chassis isn't available to them yet but trust me guys, I bet 90% of those who would want it, wouldn't REALLY want it after testdriving it. Porsche describes the 20 mm chassis with LSD mostly suitable from track racing in their internal documentation and this actually says it all. They also say that this is the option for "people who completely want to sacrifice comfort for sportiness", no more explenation needed I guess.
    The only disadvantage I see with PASM is the lack of being able to install aftermarket springs, dampers, swaybars, etc. or even a complete coilover kit. Once you go PASM, there doesn't seem to be a "turning back".
    Highly recommendable for people who use the 997 as a daily driver, who have back problems, sensible wifes/kids or who are living in areas with bad streets. Every bump makes my denture try to escape from my mouth.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Thanks, RC.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    RC:

    I really appreciate your very detailed explanations of the various elements of the 997 and 997S. It makes it far easier for those of us who have not yet had the chance to sit in one, let alone drive one, to get a feel for what the car(s) is(are) like. In my case, I know your driving skills far exceed mine and therefore your ability to test the limits and describe the nuances of the drive trains and suspension are, indeed, very helpful. Bless you!

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    ...
    The only disadvantage I see with PASM is the lack of being able to install aftermarket springs, dampers, swaybars, etc. or even a complete coilover kit. Once you go PASM, there doesn't seem to be a "turning back".
    Highly recommendable for people who use the 997 as a daily driver, who have back problems, sensible wifes/kids or who are living in areas with bad streets. Every bump makes my denture try to escape from my mouth.



    RC, I could imagine that there will be a solution for serious track use - either an adapted PASM or a complete change of suspension. Are the suspension geometry or the damper connections to the suspension completely different to the 20mm version (camber etc)?

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Okay, read your comment on the other suspension topic.

    Anyways, as you indicated, I could imagine some tuner will offer a black-box solution to replace PASM and to communicate with the ABS/ESP system.

    Any possibilities to change the valves inside the PASM dampers - e.g. alterning damping rate even more?

    One other question: did you also experience a significant amount of warm-up time for the tires until they really work well. Haven't experienced this on any street tire so far - what's your experience with that?

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Quote:
    Ferdie said:
    One other question: did you also experience a significant amount of warm-up time for the tires until they really work well. Haven't experienced this on any street tire so far - what's your experience with that?



    Just a short comment regarding PASM and aftermarket mods: I really doubt that a solution can be offered by a Tuner, at least not something really worth going for. I can however imagine that Porsche offers some kind of "enhancement" kit but I doubt that too to be honest. The problem isn't the dampers, the problem is the software adaption. The whole PASM system is "communicating" with various systems on the car's "network", so I can imagine what happens if somebody messes up with that.

    Regarding the tires: interesting question, I tried to find that out myself too. I have the impression that the warmer the tires get, the better they stick but I don't think this is really surprising considering the "new" type of tire Porsche uses for the 997. According to them, the 19'' Michelin Pilot Sport 2 N1 has been specifically developped with better traction, better sticking and better braking in mind. I can confirm that, this tire is great but surprisingly, the rear tires get VERY hot (I almost can't touch them) after a fast drive. Never experienced that with any of my cars (I have the habit to touch the tires after fast rides ) and even the heavy Cayenne Turbo has pretty "cool" tires, even if I'm driving top speed and the car is loaded, for example during our trip to Italy.
    So I suppose that the Michelin tires NEED temperature to get real sticky and they indeed are.
    One downside though: when I fully accelerated on a completely wet street at around 80-90 kph, the rear started to dance and the PSM light came on. I was going straight!
    I reached my destination shortly after this happened and when I got back to the car, the pavement was already dry again and I wasn't able to collect more information.
    So I assume that these tires might not be perfect on wet pavement but I'll definetely try it again as soon as the weather conditions allow it. Right now I'm happy if it isn't raining over here.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Yeah, some tyres break loose in the wet...!

    When I attacked the first corners I experienced quite a bit of understeer which was completely gone once the tires' temperature increased. I was kind of surprised how early the tyres break loose - and the PSM kicks in - in tight corners - and I was way below the huge power thump.

    Regarding the PASM system: I could imagine that a "black-box device" to simulate a communication between dampers and system should be manageable.
    However, what do the dampers communicate to the system - other than current setting?
    What about the suspension settings - any difference between PASM and 20mm?

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    I'm a technic and electro freak - so normal, I would go for a PASM out of that. BUT - I have testdriven a the 997S with 20mm/LSD and WOSH - WOW - this susp. feels great. Very sharp not to harsh, still a little comfortable and I only can say its the pure fun!

    Go for it....

    L@rs

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Robbo,

    I drove a 997S with 20mm for about an hour. No track racing of course. Handling was superb. But even though I really slowed down to almost zero I scratched quite hard three speedbumpers in the city. I really wouldn't like that if this was my car.

    I will go for PASM. I heard in Sport mode it's similar to 20mm, at least for people like me. Fast driver but no racer. So you always have the choice. And my wife and my doughter will like it too.

    I have to add that I will go for a cab. So sport suspension makes probably no sense anyway. And I will beware of changing anything on my car anyway.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    So I assume that these tires might not be perfect on wet pavement but I'll definetely try it again as soon as the weather conditions allow it.



    I am really interested in this, please comment back on the tires in the wet when you do get some rain. Especially their water evacuation capacity at high speeds.

    Also, are the tires "Pilot Sport 2" or "Pilot Sport PS2"?

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Dear RC,
    refer to your statement tht install of aftermarket springs is not possible. I'd like to draw yr attention to the latest edition of German car magazine 'Sport Auto'which reports that 'Techart' offers 30 mm shorter springs - seems to be available also for the 'S' as you can see red callipers on the photo. Maybe of interest for our friends in the U.S.
    By the way, believe to remember that you were disappointed with the performance of the car below 5000 revs. Test datas in the same magazine confirm your impression - the tested 'S' achieves by the skin of its teeth the results of a common 996 C2. Very annoying the more as media cars are normally handpicked with some extra HP.
    brgds, Tom

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    Quote:
    Tom said:
    Dear RC,
    refer to your statement tht install of aftermarket springs is not possible. I'd like to draw yr attention to the latest edition of German car magazine 'Sport Auto'which reports that 'Techart' offers 30 mm shorter springs - seems to be available also for the 'S' as you can see red callipers on the photo. Maybe of interest for our friends in the U.S.



    That Techart kit is most lickely for the regualr 997 and -20mm optioned 997S' only since it would be just changing shocks and springs for stiffer ones, but not available for the PASM equiped 997S with variable dampning shocks tied to all the software/harware of the car.

    Re: PASM OR -20MM LSD?

    From what i've been told PASM is speed dependant as well
    Chart shows the overlaps of PASM as well as the -20mm sport

     
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