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    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    We'll see how that plays out, even if they don't retain Lamborghini. Someone else will. What a monopoly the market will be for Ferrari

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    It's interesting that the "no toys" comment is being interpreted as referring to Lamborghini. With the business accumen that Mr Wiedeking has I'd be more inclined to believe he was referring to Bugatti as it stands little chance of ever making money and was a flight of fancy by Herr Piech. Lambo on the other hand does generate cash and has the ability to expand it's model range to fit in a 2 or 4 seat GT car in the price range of the 599. It also gives the group a halo brand with a growing positive reputation with which to compete against Ferrari. Whilst the upper 997 models offer great performance Porsche don't really operate in this "exotic" segment currently and it is questionable whether they need to in future if they have Lambo as part of the stable. If Lambo remains in house it gives them well defined price points for their brands and those are things that aren't given up lightly by shrewd marketers. If it is kept "in-house" then it is also possible to ensure it is not a direct competitor chasing the same sales as the upper model 997's and the under the skin technology can be shared to keep future development cost down and profit margins up. A Porsche reworked Lambo V10 in the forthcoming Panamera being one potential example perhaps? It is harder to see a long term future for the R8 in such a scenario though.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    http://www.motorauthority.com/news/industry/future-grim-for-lamborghini-and-bugatti/



    I highly doubt it. The toy reference was actually more a "shot" against projects like the Veyron.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    It just has been updates..

    Updated - Porsche CEO not planning to kill off supercars

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    To have Porsche instead of even Audi (still a good match) to aid lambo in its engineering would be a dream...I hope that the marque sticks around, I think they are some of the most exciting cars there are, esp the V12 cars, which with any luck will continue with something radical new and NON-AUDI in the next generation!

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Does anyone here have enough money to buy both Aston Martin and Lamborghini
    The worlds most beautiful GTs and the worlds wildest supercars - now that would be a nice company

    Mike S

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    I think the reference to 'no more toys' simply means no more unprofitable projects that don't pay for themselves e.g. the Veyron.

    Certainly, VW/Audi may sell off Bugatti and Lamborghini in the future but I find it extremely hard to believe that the Lamborghini and Bugatti marques (which have enormous kudos and undeniable brand value) would be allowed to die. That would make poor business & financial sense. Ask any business startup what an advantage it must be to have global brand recognition and notoriety.

    IMO It would be premature to form such dire conclusions based on some off the cuff comments.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    I would find it hard to believe that Porsche, the king of extracting profit, would let hundreds of millions of dollars worth of brands die. I concur with easy rider911... if it does to make profit... don't do it... from my business school days... "If it does not jingle it does not count" ;-)

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    I think Lamborghini and Bugatti are totally different cases. If Bugatti is not profitable, there is no way to recoup the expenses. It's quite different with Lamborghini (or for that matter, Bentley).

    The Veyron is so much out of this world that the components that were developed for it can't be used in any car that's selling in any reasonable volume (i.e. Bentley and Lambo don't count). Moreover, it will always be cheaper to build a specific part that matches Audi's cost/performance/reliability requirements, than to reuse an overengineered Bugatti part. Which means Bugatti has to be profitable on its own.

    On the other hand, Lamborghini, Bentley and Audi's high-end models are not too dissimilar. Which means you can share R&D costs across 3 brands, and get enough volume to recoup your investment.
    It also means you can diversify away part of your risk (e.g. if the VW Phaeton has failed, the Bentley Continental is a success).


    The second argument is the flagship argument. If the Carrera GT failed to meet the 1,500 unit goal, it did help move quite a few Boxsters. Unfortunately, the flagship argument does not work so well when brands are different. How is Bugatti helping VW move Golfs and Jettas (or even Audis)?

    Granted, the flagship argument can work between different brands provided it is possible to share key parts. I remember the Lancia Thema 8.32 with the Ferrari engine. Audi is doing it right now: every car nut knows the R8/S6/S8 have or are getting a Lamborghini engine.

    But once again, you can't do that with Bugatti. Nothing shouts "polished turd" like a "VW Golf R32 by Bugatti" (or a Lancia Thema 8.32 for that matter).

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    I would find it hard to believe that Porsche, the king of extracting profit, would let hundreds of millions of dollars worth of brands die. I concur with easy rider911... if it does to make profit... don't do it... from my business school days... "If it does not jingle it does not count" ;-)


    No matter how prestigious, a brand that cannot be made profitable and brings no value to your current brand portfolio has a negative value in my book.

    Of course, the market might disagree temporarily, but anyone straying away too much from the bottom line, hoping for a greater fool, is bound to be that fool at some point.

    It's like paying $1m for a $400k house. You might see a $1m house, but I see someone who wasted $600k.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    After reading the entire article, I think Wiedeking wants profitable cars instead of "toys" - like the Veyron. Right now he's more focused on developing bread and butter cars and utilizing all engineering resources by not putting them on non-profitable projects. He's wanting to develop technology that can be shared with Audi, VW and Porsche, which makes sense. It'll lower manufacturing costs for all and help create a profit by spreading the technology around and build in greater numbers. VW has been in trouble for a little while now and Porsche knows a thing or two about that. They are now the most profitable car company in the world. Porsche wants to turn the VW group around and it's going to take something like this to do it.
    Lambo will more than likely be retained, but no new products for a while. Bugatti is probably gone or left by the way side. Unless they completely change what they've been doing (making cars at a loss and not share any components with anything else).

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    01Box06Z06 said:
    After reading the entire article, I think Wiedeking wants profitable cars instead of "toys" - like the Veyron. Right now he's more focused on developing bread and butter cars and utilizing all engineering resources by not putting them on non-profitable projects. He's wanting to develop technology that can be shared with Audi, VW and Porsche, which makes sense. It'll lower manufacturing costs for all and help create a profit by spreading the technology around and build in greater numbers. VW has been in trouble for a little while now and Porsche knows a thing or two about that. They are now the most profitable car company in the world. Porsche wants to turn the VW group around and it's going to take something like this to do it.
    Lambo will more than likely be retained, but no new products for a while. Bugatti is probably gone or left by the way side. Unless they completely change what they've been doing (making cars at a loss and not share any components with anything else).



    Perhaps they could make Bugatti compete with supercars such as the Zonda ? All that Veyron tech in a lighter, more agile car at $600.000 should be able to rake in some cash.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Absolutely there is enough cash out there for someone to buy both Aston Martin and Lamborghini! Basically the world is afloat in cash, since the US treasury has been pumping out money since the dot.com crash of 2000. The bigger question would be are there the people out there who could run both companies, without running them into the ground.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    lanbo increased its profit by 37% in 2006, and wiedeking likes cash, so i dont think lambo isin danger..

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Does anyone here have enough money to buy both Aston Martin and Lamborghini
    The worlds most beautiful GTs and the worlds wildest supercars - now that would be a nice company

    Mike S



    Temm,

    That would be coolest thing if happens

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    If he really wants to compete with Toyota then Bugatti, Lambo and Bentley needs to be ditched. Cars at the lower end of the scale are increasingly becoming commoditized and to fight that trend requires some remarkable engineering and technological advancements. For instance, Toyota is trying to develop a system to cut the number of parts used in the assembly of a vehicle by half. I've been reading about it and amount of engineering in devoted towards manufacturing productivity in Toyota leaves companies like GM, Ford and VW in the dust.

    If he really intends on developing VW into a Toyota competitor, then he has got a lot of work ahead of him and companies like Lambo and Bugatti are nothing but expensive vanity projects.

    And as for making a 600k competitor to the Zonda, well, I seriously doubt you would be able to "rake in" any significant amount of money relative to the size of VW.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Danny G said:
    And as for making a 600k competitor to the Zonda, well, I seriously doubt you would be able to "rake in" any significant amount of money relative to the size of VW.



    That is true. However, better to at least gain a profit several million dollars than to dump the brand at a net loss of several million dollars. After all, the brand has been established and the technology developed. Since it isn't applicable to cheap cars, all that Veyron tech should be used in high-end cars. It may or may not cover the whole investment, but I'm of a belief that a significant loss is still better than a total loss.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    temm said:
    Does anyone here have enough money to buy both Aston Martin and Lamborghini
    The worlds most beautiful GTs and the worlds wildest supercars - now that would be a nice company

    Mike S



    There are lots of people that have both marques! Don't put the spotlight on me again

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.



    Hahaha, know what the irony is. I was....

    You posted that at 13:43 yesterday Rossi, at that time I was busy negotiating prices with the dealer.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    VGA18 said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Does anyone here have enough money to buy both Aston Martin and Lamborghini
    The worlds most beautiful GTs and the worlds wildest supercars - now that would be a nice company

    Mike S



    Temm,

    That would be coolest thing if happens



    1 down, 1 to go! I want to wait till the AM Vantage Cabrio comes out, then we will see....

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.



    Hahaha, know what the irony is. I was....

    You posted that at 13:43 yesterday Rossi, at that time I was busy negotiating prices with the dealer.



    Well, I just knew it.

    What car BTW?

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.



    Hahaha, know what the irony is. I was....

    You posted that at 13:43 yesterday Rossi, at that time I was busy negotiating prices with the dealer.



    Well, I just knew it.

    What car BTW?



    The ML63... Rossi, you replied to in that thread. Did you forget already?

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.



    Hahaha, know what the irony is. I was....

    You posted that at 13:43 yesterday Rossi, at that time I was busy negotiating prices with the dealer.



    Well, I just knew it.

    What car BTW?



    The ML63... Rossi, you replied to in that thread. Did you forget already?



    First answer: I got confused by you, so many cars in such a short time.

    Second answer: I thought the price negotiations for ML63 were sorted out a long time ago and you were negotiating about the next car.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.



    Hahaha, know what the irony is. I was....

    You posted that at 13:43 yesterday Rossi, at that time I was busy negotiating prices with the dealer.



    Well, I just knew it.

    What car BTW?



    The ML63... Rossi, you replied to in that thread. Did you forget already?



    First answer: I got confused by you, so many cars in such a short time.

    Second answer: I thought the price negotiations for ML63 were sorted out a long time ago and you were negotiating about the next car.



    Lol, the first 63 I came across, the salesman was out of his mind. He wanted almost 200k for it....

    So I didn't go through with that one. This is the 2nd one I was notified about, so I went to look at it. The deal was good so I went through with it.

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.



    Hahaha, know what the irony is. I was....

    You posted that at 13:43 yesterday Rossi, at that time I was busy negotiating prices with the dealer.



    Well, I just knew it.

    What car BTW?



    The ML63... Rossi, you replied to in that thread. Did you forget already?



    First answer: I got confused by you, so many cars in such a short time.

    Second answer: I thought the price negotiations for ML63 were sorted out a long time ago and you were negotiating about the next car.



    Lol, the first 63 I came across, the salesman was out of his mind. He wanted almost 200k for it....

    So I didn't go through with that one. This is the 2nd one I was notified about, so I went to look at it. The deal was good so I went through with it.



    What is it with you two and mass quoting!!!

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Hi DHayek,

    How do you know Lambo's profits increased by 37% in 2006?

    To the best of my knowledge they don't publish earnings.

    May be you are referring to unit sales growth?

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    jamesaug said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    Mike S said:
    Quote:
    Rossi said:
    Quote:
    temm said:
    Mike S



    Nah, he's too busy buying cars.



    Hahaha, know what the irony is. I was....

    You posted that at 13:43 yesterday Rossi, at that time I was busy negotiating prices with the dealer.



    Well, I just knew it.

    What car BTW?



    The ML63... Rossi, you replied to in that thread. Did you forget already?



    First answer: I got confused by you, so many cars in such a short time.

    Second answer: I thought the price negotiations for ML63 were sorted out a long time ago and you were negotiating about the next car.



    Lol, the first 63 I came across, the salesman was out of his mind. He wanted almost 200k for it....

    So I didn't go through with that one. This is the 2nd one I was notified about, so I went to look at it. The deal was good so I went through with it.



    What is it with you two and mass quoting!!!



    Well, you don't have to read it, do you?

    Re: Lambo days numbered ?

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    Quote:
    thuggy said:
    I would find it hard to believe that Porsche, the king of extracting profit, would let hundreds of millions of dollars worth of brands die. I concur with easy rider911... if it does to make profit... don't do it... from my business school days... "If it does not jingle it does not count" ;-)


    No matter how prestigious, a brand that cannot be made profitable and brings no value to your current brand portfolio has a negative value in my book.

    Of course, the market might disagree temporarily, but anyone straying away too much from the bottom line, hoping for a greater fool, is bound to be that fool at some point.

    It's like paying $1m for a $400k house. You might see a $1m house, but I see someone who wasted $600k.



    The analogy of a house is not quite the same. The Veyron was supposed to be an exercise in relaunching a storied brand, basically an investment that is now a sunk cost, to not follow up on the investment with a more reasonable profitable car would be throwing away an investment in marketing. At the very least, they could sell the brand and extract the goodwill.

     
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