Crown

Board: Porsche - 911 - 996 Language: English Region: Worldwide Share/Save/Bookmark Close

Forum - Thread


    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Dan,

    An F1 car designer once described the 911 to me as being a triumph of development over design.
    Not a bad assessment in my view, but development DID manage to triumph.

    As others have written, the rear engine does allow a passable 2+2 seat arrangement. I can't remember having seen a viable mid-engined car which did, so I think the 911 concept still has legs.

    fritz

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Stephen..if it helps, not sure that it will tell you anything you have not already surmised....run a search on Nick's posts on Funcars...should help to establish context....

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Having owned and enjoyed Porsches for 40 years (gasp!), I certainly admire the marque and the rear engine concept. I think it still has a future, but do wish for a bolder design on the 997 or future platform. Something like the improvement (in my personal view) of the GT2 over the 996 turbo (which I own and truly enjoy).

    I also wish that Porsche would design a new mid-engine car, similar to the 360, in addition to the 997 and offspring. I believe it would have a niche, and not compete. There is a clear difference between the looks and appeal of the two designs, with both having distinct advantages. If both were offered, I think I would still opt for the rear engine design, as it provides a larger cockpit space, better rear viewing, and a more open feel all around inside. I drove a mid-engined Porsche (a 904 GTS) for many years--on the street and track--and can testify that the mid-engine layout has distinct disadvantages.

    On the 911 being boring, I know what Nberry is getting at, as I actually lost interest in 911s over the late eighties and early nineties. I thought the design had stopped evolving. But with the 993 and 996, I got excited again as I saw the new designs as cleaner, more integrated, elegant and complete. I also thought Ferrari went well off course at one point, but regained its design footing with the 360.

    A final comment about boring and out of date (which I could be). I own two beautiful 356s, and they get sincere, adoring comments all the time--all grounded in their simple, classic lines. And my guess is that Ferrari Daytona and 330 owners get the same. Older and simpler doesn't mean boring (I sure hope!).

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Stephen do not personalize my comments. I posit my comments in a very argumentative manner only to be stimulating.

    I sincerely believe in two points. First the manual transmission is a dinosaur and will be gone for good in 5-10 years. Second Porsche has lost it bearings and its market segment base is growing older but porsche styling and product development is in a time warp. Yes they have sold well but I believe the end is near. The younger generation is headed in a different direction and it is not in foreign sport cars. Porsche success continues to be with the baby boomers because all of us grew up dreaming of owning a Porsche. Many of us are beginning to look elsewhere.

    I also believe Porsche knows this but exploiting the marque to squeeze a few more dollars out of this platform. We all know the back seats in a sport car particularly a Porsche are useless. Lose the weight; gives us better handling and a larger engine. The car will sell IF Porsche does not ruin its good will built up over the years. Today, my and many others, biggest fear is buying a Porsche means substantial depreciation in a very short time. With Porsche prices what they are, one is looking at losing a lot of money. Porsche could care less.

    I predict within a couple of years they will salvage the Boxster by increasing its power and possible exceeding the performance of the 911. They will leave it to the public to chose which they prefer. I will wager the 911 rear engine configuration loses.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:First the manual transmission is a dinosaur and will be gone for good in 5-10 years.




    In other type of cars maybe, but in sportcars there will always be people who buy their sportcars for the purpose of enjoying driving them and for whom an involving manual tranny is part of the pleasure and experience, and to them driving an auto sportcar for and extended period of time turns to like having sex with a condom. And not all sporcars will have full electronic stability systems in 5-10 yrs or "classic" sportcars go out of fashion because they are not modern, etc. As for the rest of the prophecies... well, don't quit you day job for prophet Nick

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Personally I find the rear engined (rear weight biased) 911 more predictable and easy to drive at (and exceeding) the limit than any 50/50 car I've thus far driven. The trottle steering available from this set up is just so amazing once you learn it. The dance between under and oversteer via the throttle on a 911 is like no other that I am aware of. Further, it's hard to beat the breaking of the 911 owing to the weight transfer that can only come from a rear weight biased car.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Stephen do not personalize my comments. I posit my comments in a very argumentative manner only to be stimulating.



    Well Nick,

    You saw from the responses that your post had surely been stimulating.
    I don't think that the responses were prompted so much by an "argumentative manner" as the fact that you make bold statements without any reasoned arguments to back them up. Your statements frequently contradict other peoples' own observations and experience, but you do not provide any new insights or perceptions which might prompt others to re-examine their own beliefs. If you were to occasionally back up your statements with relevant facts or figures, they would have to be taken more seriously.





    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I sincerely believe in two points. First the manual transmission is a dinosaur and will be gone for good in 5-10 years.



    I thought exactly that as a young engineer over twenty years ago. Manually shifting a transmission seemed so primitive. Then I started being able to drive sports cars instead of just reading about them, and came to realize the virtues of a manual transmission.

    Having driven several of the clutchless transmissions now available, including the Modena F1, BMW ASG, Audi DSG, I also realize that there is still some way to go before these transmissions will totally supplant manual shift boxes in sports cars. Torque converter transmissions, including the "Tiptronic" type are far from capable of doing that. 5-10 years? Doubt it!





    Quote:
    nberry said:
    The younger generation is headed in a different direction and it is not in foreign sport cars.




    I would be interested to read any demographic studies which back up this statement. Can you point me in the right direction?







    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Porsche success continues to be with the baby boomers because all of us grew up dreaming of owning a Porsche. Many of us are beginning to look elsewhere.




    Looking elsewhere does not necessarily mean that you will find something which fulfils all requirements to the same level. I wish it were otherwise, because I think competition is healthy.






    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Today, my and many others, biggest fear is buying a Porsche means substantial depreciation in a very short time. With Porsche prices what they are, one is looking at losing a lot of money.




    I can't speak for the USA, but in Europe depreciation rates on the 911, for instance, are still amongst the best out there, and certainly a lot better than the more exotic Italian marques.






    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I predict within a couple of years they will salvage the Boxster by increasing its power and possible exceeding the performance of the 911. They will leave it to the public to chose which they prefer. I will wager the 911 rear engine configuration loses.




    I bought my first new 911 over 20 years ago, though I could ill afford it. I thought it might be the last chance to do so, because it was supposed to be replaced by the 928.
    Boy, did I get that wrong. But i never regretted it.

    The Boxster was developed as Porsche's entry-level model. If they took it up-market, they would only have to re-invent it.

    If you really think you can predict the future, you should concentrate on next week's figures for the Florida Lottery. If that works out, don't forget all your friends at Rennteam.com!

    fritz

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Fritz I appreciate your comments. Unfortunately your views are embedded within the 911 and no amount of reasoning or logic will release you. Porsche has you "hook, line and sinker"

    First your point abour manual or Tiptronic. Two famous drivers for Porsche, Hurley Haywood and Dave Murry are on record stating the Tiptronic is what they prefer (they told me the same thing in private). Also, I believe Porsche was working on a sequential transmission for the CGT but was unable to finish it in time and found it, for now, adding considerable expense to an already VERY expensive car.

    Other car manufacturers are abandoning the manual. I believe BMW is about to dump it all together. VW I understand is on the verge of doing the same.

    As soon as Porsche fully develops the tranny it will become standard. Now it may be possible for those living in the middles ages( they keep tell themselves they like to work a car ) to order a manual in the future but it will cost them plenty for old technology.

    Regarding the buying public, I do not have studies directed to this issue but our younger generation are finding other priorities which do not include expensive foreign sport cars. Many like the Corvette (their favorite) Viper and the Z300. As a matter of fact, the 350Z performs equal to the 911 for 1/2 the price. They know this and are buying them.

    Sales of aport cars in the US would have been down dramatically but for the 350Z. Porsche sales are down 30% in the US.

    Regarding depreciation just talk to any US owner of a Porsche. To a person they will tell you they have taken a bath on their car. The shame is the TT is the best car for the money anywhere. Sadly, Porsche put profits over customer interest.

    I understand I will not win any popularity contest on this board because I go against the grain and people just do not like that. I also know I will not pursuade anyone. But I have a right to express my opinion.

    Finally, I am not wedded to Ferrari. I love the styling and sensual elements to the car. ON US roads that is all you have.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    Also, I believe Porsche was working on a sequential transmission for the CGT but was unable to finish it in time and found it, for now, adding considerable expense to an already VERY expensive car.




    The reason was that they did not have the time to develop a system which would meet Porsches stringent quality standards.
    The Carrera GT has gone through the same reliability tests as the Boxster.

    How many miles per year do you drive your 360 Nick?

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    You certainly do have a right to express your opinion. You just seem to do so with the intent of exacerbating the rest of us. I am sure you may find a more receptive audience elsewhere, but you seem to enjoy enciting those of us that enjoy a particular maker's vehicles.

    If the 911 is dead, why are so many people on pins and needles awaiting the next incarnation? 911 is damned near synonomous with Porsche. 911 is an icon to sports car enthusiasts. By enthusiast, I mean people who actually want to DRIVE their cars and don't give a lick about being seen in it.

    If our loyalty to the brand means we have truely been taken hook, line and sinker then I guess sombody better help my fat ass into the boat because I LIKE the bait they are using.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    Sydney said:
    I drove a mid-engined Porsche (a 904 GTS) for many years--on the street and track--and can testify that the mid-engine layout has distinct disadvantages.



    Actually, I can sympathize with this view ... I haven't driven a 904, but I have driven a couple of Lotus Elises and a Lotus Exige which I imagine would be similar in feel to a 904.

    The Exige in particular had fantastic handling, but is very hot and cramped. It's also difficult to drive at the limit (twitchy rear, but the model I drove probably could have used an alignment.) By comparison, the Boxster S I drove later was plush!

    One thing is for sure, if Porsche do make a coupe version of the Boxster sporting the right numbers, I'd probably have a deposit down tomorrow!

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    I predict within a couple of years they will salvage the Boxster by increasing its power and possible exceeding the performance of the 911. They will leave it to the public to chose which they prefer. I will wager the 911 rear engine configuration loses.



    I actually always heard something completely different from PAG. The 911 stays the Porsche sportscar for many years from now on, the Boxster will always be at a lower level for marketing purposes. A mid-engine design is nice but not really something most people want to have, not to speak about the fact that most customers don't even care or know the difference. I even heard that there are some 911 buyers who don't know that the engine is in the rear.

    In Germany, the Boxster somehow got the image of a woman's car and I have to admit that I wouldn't really want to buy one now. It is a good car but it is underpowered and...outdated.

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Anyway.....a nice toy for a woman!

    ...........the Boxter needs (under my opinion) a "hard top" as the SLK..........if that: Absolutely perfect for a beautiful woman (I'd love to see my dear driving one)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    "In Germany, the Boxster somehow got the image of a woman's car and I have to admit that I wouldn't really want to buy one now. It is a good car but it is underpowered and...outdated. "

    RC,

    I dont know if you drove Boxter but when I did and I really liked its handling, the car is so easy to control and the S version can be driven on the edge :-)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Yes, I can't agree more...........

    But, of what "Edge" are we talking about?


    There will allways be a "sunday edge" before dining with the family, for shure, very, very, enjoyable............

    But seriously driving..........a Boxter is a Toy!!!! (That's why is "easy"....)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    .....a seriusly appointed "911" is another galaxy.........if you really want to approach "The edge", better allow yourself some years of expirience (and I'm not talking about stupid acceleration in a highway).........."The creature" surprises me day by day.

    I have the permanent feeling that something new to learn is there (Of course, not in the Trak...........after some months, every turn is so predictable, that finally it is only a matter of more and more horse power).......But in our Spanish ordinary roads, with their changing conditions, the Carrera is the best imaginable partner......

    .....and Teacher......(Regardless the number of wheels with traction)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Couldnt agree more

    Edge means that you basically bring the car to the (close of) max of what it can do. No I am not talking about stupid highway acceleration :-) but I am talking about taking challenging corners, driving through your favor and probably not easy roads and track too. Again doing it not with max speed but with max smartness, I guess I shouldnt explain that here but when you drive 911 or Porsche so to speak in the right way you just know it from the car and what e feeling it is! :-)

    I have 996 TT2002 and its a great car that I have to admit I didnt bring probably to 25% of its "edge" :-) and I am not forcing things and trying to learn via various track and racing schools opps. And you are right my TT teaches me every day something new and I love this daily challenge too :-)

    For me my 996TT 2002 is like best fighting war craft out there (ala F16 etc.) but Boxter being more exhibition airplane for nice air stunts :-)

    I know that the comparison may look weird :-)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    ..........without the intention of abusing the forum's pacience (not shure if correctly written), just a word.........

    Maybe a Porsche in the US is an "Ordinary car"....maybe.....

    .....maybe some young costumers are "bored" about the "old 911"....

    BUT:

    1.- The "Carrera" is NOT only a car: The Porsche Carrera is History (Not kiddin')

    2.- It is the real car that will teach you how to handle in a serious way (After this accademy, maybe you'd try a Ferrari-fantastic also-, but "not the same").

    3.- If All this Bla bla matters you nothing, we are in different planets: Some of us make a BIG effort purchasing masterpieces (cars) because we love them....not because we try to gain a social level or a "Hollywood" image..As a very realistic opinion of a member of the forum recently said, we are just Car lovers, and our satisfaction is driving (not showing a social status)

    So..........nothing to do with what some young (of course absolutely respectable) winds smell...........PLEASE:

    Get a Carrera and forget about image (If image is the first, forget about Porsche....this is a car for drivers): enjoy and feel how nice is sweeping a bend (not to mention the sound percived with hands on wheel!)

    If you disagree (and I absolutely respect your opinion -as good as mine-), much better a colouful Lambo or Ferrari (Also fantstic cars)....but my point of view is the one that a pilot has........not trying to impress anybody.....but, sensations "Close to the edge" can't be paid with money or "prstige"...........not excluding Ferraris.......just enjoying and learning!

    PD: Please be indulget with my shurely "english written mistakes".....thanks in advance

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Lev, I can't agree more with your words..............

    ....., the TT is (maybe) an even more difficult approach..(Specially in slippery or bended roads) but : WHAT A SINGULAR CREATURE!

    Some adrenaline problems I had experienced in the past. My approaach was maybe diferent .....my first Carrera was a fantastic "Rally" car ....Years after, I could manage to "fix" my existence to my dream : The turbo. He/She gave some non desirble sensations......, we finally reached a reasonable agreement....?meeting point?.......) Since then,I got used to my previously mentioned teacher....His/Her name kept changing and improoving, butthe teacher has allways taken care of us ........Despite I'm a horrible pupil!

    Thank you for your response, really.....I Wonder if sometime we could make a "Rennteam material meeting" for shure we would not only learn from our "Lovers" (I meen our cars!)

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Just one more word: Brilliant comparison!!!

    Very accurate!

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    Quote:
    nberry said:
    Fritz I appreciate your comments. Unfortunately your views are embedded within the 911 and no amount of reasoning or logic will release you. Porsche has you "hook, line and sinker"



    Nick,

    You still don't get it.

    One of my points in my last post in this thread was that you had not provided any reasoned logical arguments.

    Another was, that I would welcome it if Porsche had real competition, because it would force them to raise the level of their game. My words were, "competition is healthy".

    It's obvious that you are really not into rational analysis or discussion based on fact or thought-through opinions. I'm going to take Mike's advice and stop feeding the Trolls.

    Bibi

    fritz

    Re: Since we now know what Porsche can do with a mid engine

    I have just the manufacturer for you.

    TVR.

    It does everything that you want and more.

    www.tvr.co.uk

    P.

    Nick is right ... but so what?

    I happen to agree with Nick that the rear-engine layout of the 911 is not optimal. I think we all know that it has been kept for marketing purposes mostly. The layout is now considered sacred within Porsche and therefore no one will dare challenge it.

    But wait a second, how much of a difference does it really make? How heavy is that engine hanging off the back of the 911? And how far off the back is it really hanging? What's more, having the engine at the rear allows Porsche to put the gearbox ahead of the rear wheels. How heavy is the gearbox? If Porsche put the engine ahead of the rear wheels then it would be forced to hang the gearbox off the back (barring some sort of complicated split gearbox/differential with long drive shafts connecting the two).

    The first thing that would need to go is the rear seats. This is why you do not find rear-mid engines in many sedans. A short polar moment of inertia is incompatible with a large passenger compartment. These aren't race cars but are intended for use on the street.

    Then there are some clear advantages to a rear engine. Under acceleration a rear engine puts more weight over the driven wheels. More rear weight also means bigger rear tyres which also help under acceleration. Under braking the car is also more optimally balanced than would be a mid-rear engine car. This is especially nice for trail braking into the corner.

    And what exactly does it mean to not have the shortest polar moment of inertia? In steady state it means nothing. It is only transitions where it matters. The polar moment of inertia is going to affect how quickly the car can turn in to a corner. It will not affect the maximum cornering of the car in steady state cornering. Of course a faster turn-in is better. But how much difference does it really make?

    Furthermore, in the hands of a novice, a shorter polar moment of inertia can mean trouble. The novice is not able to handle the instability. Certain rear-mid engine cars have a reputation for spinning quickly and this is the reason why. Again, these are not race cars but are intended to be used on the streets by ordinary drivers.

    The real problem with the 996 is that it is way too heavy. A shorter polar moment of inertia isn't going to fix that.

    Oh, and lastly, what did Porsche try to substitute when it decided that the rear engine was finished? A conventional front engine. Why, economics - it is easier to develop and manufacture.

    So Nick is right ... but so what?

    Stephen

    Re: Nick is right ... but so what?

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    I happen to agree with Nick that the rear-engine layout of the 911 is not optimal. I think we all know that it has been kept for marketing purposes mostly. The layout is now considered sacred within Porsche and therefore no one will dare challenge it.

    So Nick is right ... but so what?

    Stephen



    Rear engine layout not optimal? Maybe. But which layout would be optimal in your view? This layout provides a fantastic traction like almost no other car out there.
    Drive a 996 C2 and Mercedes CLK 55 AMG or BMW M3 and you understand what I mean.

    Nick is right? Well, it depends what you're looking for.
    I'm looking for fun, excitement and as less technical flaws as possible. A Porsche really falls into that category.

    Re: Nick is right ... but so what?

    Quote:
    FixedWing said:
    I happen to agree with Nick that the rear-engine layout of the 911 is not optimal.



    Nobody's ever said it was OPTIMAL. But somehow it just keeps winning races and winning fans.

    Notice how, with minimal factory support, Porsche dominates the GT class. And at Daytona this year, 911's finished 2nd and 3rd overall, ahead of all but one of the Daytona prototypes and GTS cars.

    If that's not optimal, then optimal is overrated.

    Dain

    Additional advantage of rear engine layout!

    In addition to what RC said about traction advantages of a rear engine layout, I would think that there are some more advantages under breaking as well.

    Since every car 'nose dives' under breaking, I'd expect a positive effect of the relatively heavy engine at the back. Because there is a more even weight distribution under breaking (compared to any other engine layout), the two rubbers in the rear can support breaking more efficiently.

    Good day to all!

    Gregor

    Re: Additional advantage of rear engine layout!

    The advantages all of you have pointed out are also somewhat indicative of the advantages of mid-engine vehicles.

    Porsche is very good at tuning suspension. The triumph of evolution over design has been brought up many times. Who is to say they couldn't do even better with a completely fresh slate (that is perhaps mid-engined)?

    Re: Additional advantage of rear engine layout!

    Any news of the Ruf R50? 996TT motor with 600+ hp, midengine design, Porsche components, and Ruf's own chassis.

    Re: Additional advantage of rear engine layout!

    There's an interesing post from CFG on "funcarsonline" where he claims that the next version of the "911" will likely be a mid-engined V8.

    Worth reading:

    Future 998?

     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part I) Thread Closed 9/24/20 12:47 AM
    watt
    629687 2849
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 12/30/20 9:03 AM
    rhino
     
     
     
     
     
    389506 1279
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 7/4/21 12:06 PM
    nberry
    91572 1094
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 7/28/21 4:07 PM
    pgouveia
    49468 354
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    37436 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 10/19/20 6:12 PM
    Leawood911
    34919 380
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 8/2/21 4:14 PM
    lexs4
    21731 465
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    5755 29
    Porsche Cayman GT4 5/4/21 4:46 PM
    Topspeed
    447845 3586
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 6/25/21 2:56 PM
    the-missile
    373829 3506
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 6/22/21 5:42 PM
    Topspeed
    373440 3917
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 4/28/21 12:26 PM
    W8MM
    336303 3252
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 12/8/20 7:51 PM
    DJM48
    312777 2646
    Porsche Tesla Roadster 9/23/20 8:22 PM
    bluelines
    282828 4279
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 7/20/21 3:10 PM
    Topspeed
    239506 1567
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    163666 1379
    Porsche 992 GT3 7/31/21 11:32 PM
    bvineyards
    150200 2840
    Others Alfa Romeo 4C 9/23/20 10:22 AM
    RCA
    139628 792
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    113316 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 7/30/21 4:07 PM
    WhoopsyM
    96736 735
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 7/5/21 4:30 PM
    BjoernB
    80158 1221
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    78586 209
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    67380 824
    Lambo Aventador and SV 7/10/21 1:17 AM
    4trac
    67163 697
    Porsche 991 Speedster 9/3/20 4:29 PM
    Topspeed
    64571 878
    Porsche Nürburgring - Tesla vs. Taycan 11/23/20 6:10 PM
    Topspeed
    46738 596
    Others Bugatti Chiron 7/22/21 6:55 PM
    Topspeed
    38435 480
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 6/24/21 6:30 PM
    Porker
    35216 531
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    35197 615
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 7/31/21 9:40 PM
    Gladstone
    30010 1117
    269 items found, displaying 1 to 30.