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    EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    This months EVO Magazine has an interesting article on the new Aston Martin V8 Vantage. 1st let me say, that I think it is a beautifull car.

    In the article there's a lot of references to the 997S. The guy that runs Aston also talks about it, he used to run Porsche during the times of the 993.

    One point that I found interesting is the Front-Mid-Engine placement that gives the car a nearly perfect 50-50 weight distribution, the guys in the article compare that to the fight aganst physics that Porsche has to deal with when developing a 911 because of the engine positioning.

    Let's not get into the old argument of why a 911 does not make sense and why the Boxster is a better car, what I really wanted to hear is what you guys think of this new Aston vis-a-vi the 997S and future models from Porsche.

    As I said the new Aston looks great and and that price range and specs it appears to me that it can be serious competition for Porsche (it can't in sales because of limited production compared to Porsche, but it can in performance and value for money)

    Any opinions?

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    I'm sure the Aston will be fantastic, and the Brit in me really wants it to be!

    However, I can't help but think of the Aston as an older man's car - when I'm in my 30s I want to be driving a Porsche - maybe I'll move to an Aston when I'm in my 40s.

    Regarding weight distribution, if 50/50 was that important to me, I'd have bought a BMW. Even though the 997 is so well sorted in terms of being able to drive fast easily, I still enjoy the challenge it offers in terms of weight distribution and how this translates into the handling.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    I do agree with you in as far as the AMV8 is a very very good looking car. I , as one example, was tempted to go with the amv8 against the 911S. BUT I did not. For me, it is an older man's car (as Ed J was saying). It does not have the 40 years of evolution the 911 has. The performance figures are exciting on paper. The engine position is good, but does it have -for me- the athletic makeup of the 911.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    senra said:
    This months EVO Magazine has an interesting article on the new Aston Martin V8 Vantage. 1st let me say, that I think it is a beautifull car.

    In the article there's a lot of references to the 997S. The guy that runs Aston also talks about it, he used to run Porsche during the times of the 993.

    One point that I found interesting is the Front-Mid-Engine placement that gives the car a nearly perfect 50-50 weight distribution, the guys in the article compare that to the fight aganst physics that Porsche has to deal with when developing a 911 because of the engine positioning.

    Let's not get into the old argument of why a 911 does not make sense and why the Boxster is a better car, what I really wanted to hear is what you guys think of this new Aston vis-a-vi the 997S and future models from Porsche.

    As I said the new Aston looks great and and that price range and specs it appears to me that it can be serious competition for Porsche (it can't in sales because of limited production compared to Porsche, but it can in performance and value for money)

    Any opinions?



    This is all great pre - marketing for the AMV8. The looks are fabulous. What really counts is performance, and they have given very little factual data on that so far (not by accident either). If the performance matches the 997 S (not just in a straight line) then we have a serious driver's car for all regardless of age. It would be the first Aston that I would consider buying whilst still in my 30s. On the other hand, the 997TT is out next year, so doesn't matter anyway

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Regarding your comment on the 997TT the article does mention a possible V8 S Turbo to compete with 997TT. I don't think it would be fair to compare the V8 to the 997TT since the 997TT will be more expensive, I think about 40K USD more.

    On the age comment, I am 33, and although I have always seen AM as a car for older people, this car might change the way people feel about AM in that respect, just like the Boxster changed things for Porsche with regards to price range.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    The full article is posted in the sports car board here. Everything seems great on that car. As to "old guys car", that was true in the 80's when AM was tacky looking and of questionable build quality, but not now.

    Tom

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    IMHO, the AM V8 is absolutely stunning...but I still love the 2+2 layout of the 911. As ridiculous as this sounds, I love to hear my 3 year old in the back carseat say "vroom!" when I accelerate from a red light...

    The "New Aston Martin"

    If you get the chance take a trip around Newport Pagnell or even better Gaydon and see how the cars are built. It's a fabulous confluence of high-tech meets cottage industry. One lone robot at Gaydon does all the glueing of the tub (and they have the humor to call it "James Bonder") and yet you have people sitting with sowing machines stitching leather for seats and steering wheel trim. The whole experience of choosing the spec on the car feels very special, bespoke, like getting a hand-made suit, and a million miles away from your typical Porsche dealer experience.

    It may in some eyes be an old man's car, but it's a very, very classy experience, and when you see and hear an all-black Vanquish leave the "factory" gates I don't think you would say it's an old man's car.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    50/50 weight distribution is only 50/50 when speed is constant, so it's not necessarily the holy grail goal when building a track car. How the car balances out when you're under full power, and under full braking, is just as important as when you're maintaining a steady pace. Porsche has proved that there's more than one way to "skin the cat", albeit their way is arguably the tougher row...

    Re: The "New Aston Martin"


    "The whole experience of choosing the spec on the car feels very special, bespoke, like getting a hand-made suit, and a million miles away from your typical Porsche dealer experience"


    Le Chef, you just touched on an interesting topic, the three times I have purchased a Porsche, I have felt I was doing them a favour by purchasing a car, I think this is due to the high volume of sales they have. That on top of the fact that when I picked up my last one, the guy did not even know how to turn on the PCM

    What I mean with all this,is that I did not feel I was picking up an exclusive car, I felt no different than when I was in college and I purchased a Honda Civic, actually the after-sale service in Honda was a lot better than in my current Porsche.

    All this have led me as of late to wonder if its different in other car manofacturers, don't missunderstand me, I love Porsche's but the sales and after-sale experience will have an impact long-term if they don't get their act together.

    The Buying Experience

    In the UK you virtually have to give away your first-born to get on the waiting list, so the dealers can treat you with absolute distain, knowing full well for every person who walks away there's another waiting patiently in line to be insulted.

    In the US it's different: it's almost a "Luxury Volume" business. You don't feel like you're buying any exclusivity when you see rows of unsold Boxsters and 996's and 997's waiting patiently for customers - that's what you get at a chevy or Ford dealership. Dealers treat you more like they would in a BMW dealership when you're buying a 3 series - you're just another customer - "move along please and talk to Big Joe Goldfender in finance" - yet they pretend there's an aura or mystique to buying a Porsche when in reality there's not.

    I would love to see both JD Power and Fisher data over the last 10 years for the Porsche sales experience...

    Re: The Buying Experience

    I love my Porsche dealer. It's primarily composed of three guys. They are part of a 3-building spread, one housing VW, another with BMW, and the last with Porsche. All of the financing happens in the center BMW building. But in my Porsche building, there's one sales guy, who's just a nice down-to-earth and soft-spoken guy. One parts-guy. And a working service manager/master tech (meaning he runs the department, and wrenches on the cars with a couple assistants helping). They're all great guys, and they all know me and address me by my first name. I don't get served a Latte', I don't get fawned over or treated like a king, I just feel like I'm among NORMAL folks doing a pleasurable and calm and honest transaction, without any of the b.s. or greaseballs you've got to endure at EITHER end of the spectrum. Be it a Chevy dealership where the Old Spice cologne hangs thick and the coke-habit red noses glow and the fake gold chains rattle and they try to wrestle every scam in the book out of you, or....

    At the Rolls/Aston dealer, where they blow more sunshine up your skirt than a tanning salon and stain their noses browner than a mud wrestling contestant when you're just trying to quietly browse and ask questions.

    So I like my little home-town low-key Porsche dealer!!

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Ed J said:
    I'm sure the Aston will be fantastic, and the Brit in me really wants it to be!

    However, I can't help but think of the Aston as an older man's car - when I'm in my 30s I want to be driving a Porsche - maybe I'll move to an Aston when I'm in my 40s.

    Regarding weight distribution, if 50/50 was that important to me, I'd have bought a BMW. Even though the 997 is so well sorted in terms of being able to drive fast easily, I still enjoy the challenge it offers in terms of weight distribution and how this translates into the handling.



    It would seem with Porsche's campaign to deny warranty claims based on PCA autocrossing and the like, that the base 911 is more a street only car now with a marketing focus largely to the posuer group. If that's the case, the much better looking and more exclusive AM V8 will definetely be taking some 911 biz. But as someone has already mentioned, the extremely low volume of the AM V8 won't be more than a pimple on Porsche's butt.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    50/50 weight distribution is only 50/50 when speed is constant, so it's not necessarily the holy grail goal when building a track car. How the car balances out when you're under full power, and under full braking, is just as important as when you're maintaining a steady pace. Porsche has proved that there's more than one way to "skin the cat", albeit their way is arguably the tougher row...



    50/50 weight distribution is a marketing gimmick, 50/50 is for sedans and econoboxes, not sportcars. Racecars are built with a rear weight bias, true sportcars have a rear-weight bias, only front engined cars have a 50/50 or even front weight bias because of their engine placement they can't achieve a rear weight bias (except cars like F612 or Mas Quattroporte which went through a lot of trouble moving the engine rearward as much as possible at the expense of cabin space and confort just to have a rear weight bias for sportier handling inspite their front engine).

    50/50 is nice and safe for non-sportcars but for optimun handling rear-weight bias is superior. The rear is were you want your weight to be in order to achieve maximum traction coming out of the curve, upon braking into the corner and resulting sudden weight tranfer to the front a rear weight bias allows for better weight distribution, and in the middle of the corner a rear weight bias allows for sportier handling with less understeer.

    BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, VW, Volvos and the such are 50/50. Porsches, Ferraris, Lotus, TVR, Lambos and the such are rear-weight bias. So Aston claiming about a 50/50 is only marketing since it sound sinonimous with "balnaced car" to most people but its only so only when parked on the street, not while going form corner to corner, not a good thing in my eyes to be in the first group.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    50/50 weight distribution is only 50/50 when speed is constant, so it's not necessarily the holy grail goal when building a track car. How the car balances out when you're under full power, and under full braking, is just as important as when you're maintaining a steady pace. Porsche has proved that there's more than one way to "skin the cat", albeit their way is arguably the tougher row...



    50/50 weight distribution is a marketing gimmick, 50/50 is for sedans and econoboxes, not sportcars. Racecars are built with a rear weight bias, true sportcars have a rear-weight bias, only front engined cars have a 50/50 or even front weight bias because of their engine placement they can't achieve a rear weight bias (except cars like F612 or Mas Quattroporte which went through a lot of trouble moving the engine rearward as much as possible at the expense of cabin space and confort just to have a rear weight bias for sportier handling inspite their front engine).

    50/50 is nice and safe for non-sportcars but for optimun handling rear-weight bias is superior. The rear is were you want your weight to be in order to achieve maximum traction coming out of the curve, upon braking into the corner and resulting sudden weight tranfer to the front a rear weight bias allows for better weight distribution, and in the middle of the corner a rear weight bias allows for sportier handling with less understeer.

    BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, VW, Volvos and the such are 50/50. Porsches, Ferraris, Lotus, TVR, Lambos and the such are rear-weight bias. So Aston claiming about a 50/50 is only marketing since it sound sinonimous with "balnaced car" to most people but its only so only when parked on the street, not while going form corner to corner, not a good thing in my eyes to be in the first group.



    Carlos is correct,
    And it's very funny to hear people critisise the handling of the 911 because of its rear engined characteristic.
    Actually, throughout the year, the weight balance of the car has moved towards the front a bit, you could say now that, from the 996 onwards, the engine actually "sits" on the rear axle.
    And now for comparison figures, this is interesting:
    Front/ rear balance (%):

    Porsche Boxster 42/58

    Ferrari F430 40/60 (more rear biased than the 987 bc of the additionnal two cylinders)

    Porsche 997 38/62

    So one realises that the difference is not that big.
    It's more of a psychological thing really;)
    But indeed, a rear engined car will always have better traction that a front engined car, simple physics.

    Re: The Buying Experience

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    Be it a Chevy dealership where the Old Spice cologne hangs thick and the coke-habit red noses glow and the fake gold chains rattle and they try to wrestle every scam in the book out of you, or....
    At the Rolls/Aston dealer, where they blow more sunshine up your skirt than a tanning salon and stain their noses browner than a mud wrestling contestant when you're just trying to quietly browse and ask questions.




    LOOOOOL! Man, that's some funny shet!
    Your writing is absolutely inspiring...let's have more of that, please?

    (still giggling)

    Re: The Buying Experience

    I can't complain about the service that I got when I purchased my S - infact it was excellent, but then, so long as I was treated with respect, I would'nt really care. I'm buying the car because of what it is and its capabilities. Sure, buying an AM may be exlusive, but in my list of priorities in life, a salesmans facade means nothing to me. I spent two hours total with the salesman when I ordered the car. I'll spend countless hours more with my new best friend.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    50/50 weight distribution is only 50/50 when speed is constant, so it's not necessarily the holy grail goal when building a track car. How the car balances out when you're under full power, and under full braking, is just as important as when you're maintaining a steady pace. Porsche has proved that there's more than one way to "skin the cat", albeit their way is arguably the tougher row...



    50/50 weight distribution is a marketing gimmick, 50/50 is for sedans and econoboxes, not sportcars. Racecars are built with a rear weight bias, true sportcars have a rear-weight bias, only front engined cars have a 50/50 or even front weight bias because of their engine placement they can't achieve a rear weight bias (except cars like F612 or Mas Quattroporte which went through a lot of trouble moving the engine rearward as much as possible at the expense of cabin space and confort just to have a rear weight bias for sportier handling inspite their front engine).

    50/50 is nice and safe for non-sportcars but for optimun handling rear-weight bias is superior. The rear is were you want your weight to be in order to achieve maximum traction coming out of the curve, upon braking into the corner and resulting sudden weight tranfer to the front a rear weight bias allows for better weight distribution, and in the middle of the corner a rear weight bias allows for sportier handling with less understeer.

    BMW, Mercedes, Lexus, Jaguar, VW, Volvos and the such are 50/50. Porsches, Ferraris, Lotus, TVR, Lambos and the such are rear-weight bias. So Aston claiming about a 50/50 is only marketing since it sound sinonimous with "balnaced car" to most people but its only so only when parked on the street, not while going form corner to corner, not a good thing in my eyes to be in the first group.



    Carols,

    Thank you for an excellent explanation re weight distribution. Like many on this board, I have driven various types of "50/50" cars. None match the feel and balance of the 997S. It feels right. I have often wondered about the science behind making the rear biased car feel so right.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    P_Nut said:I have driven various types of "50/50" cars. None match the feel and balance of the 997S. It feels right. I have often wondered about the science behind making the rear biased car feel so right.



    A picture is worth a thousand words. This is the mighty Porsche 917 racecar, years beyond its competition of the time and absolute dominator in competition (after they fixed its first-year rear downforce aerodinamic issues almost by accident, but thats another story )... now this is rear weight bias! it stands on its rear!!

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    ... now this is rear weight bias! it stands on its rear!!



    Wow, Carlos, that's impressive weight bias.

    Must be 100% rear and 0% front, no?

    Or, ... maybe you're not telling us everything about the circumstances of this picture?

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Its a true pic as far as I know. Looks like >50% of the weight is on the last third of the car, of course a Flat-12 inside an overall 800Kg car has got to have an effect on weight bias

    Re: The Buying Experience

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    and they all know me and address me by my first name.



    Aah you live in the US right? Isn't everything there on a first name basis...?

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    Its a true pic as far as I know. Looks like >50% of the weight is on the last third of the car, of course a Flat-12 inside an overall 800Kg car has got to have an effect on weight bias



    I, too, think it's a real photo. But, I think the car was in motion when the pic was snapped

    Think about it! How could the car sit with its front wheels off the ground and still be able to steer around a corner?

    Huh?

    Gotta be "ramp-hopping"

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    In today's Autoweek:

    Taking Aim at Porsche - V8 Vantage has the Venerable 911 in its Sights.

    This is all about positioning. The folks at Ford are trying to leverage off the 911. and yes, the AM is absolutely gorgeous! And so is the 997 in my humble but biased view!!

    If BMW had just hired whoever designed the Aston Martins instead of BangleBut....

    BTW, to quote Autoweek:

    "Power is around 390 hp and weight around 3250 pounds, a combo said (by Ford no doubt) to be enough for 0 to 60 in sub-five seconds, with a top speed in excess of 170 mph. In other words close to the 911".

    In other words, close, but no cigar!

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    The Aston designer "Henrik Fisker" did work for BMW indeed and his last design was the BMW Z8.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Carlos is correct,
    And it's very funny to hear people critisise the handling of the 911 because of its rear engined characteristic.
    Actually, throughout the year, the weight balance of the car has moved towards the front a bit, you could say now that, from the 996 onwards, the engine actually "sits" on the rear axle.
    And now for comparison figures, this is interesting:
    Front/ rear balance (%):

    Porsche Boxster 42/58

    Ferrari F430 40/60 (more rear biased than the 987 bc of the additionnal two cylinders)

    Porsche 997 38/62

    So one realises that the difference is not that big.
    It's more of a psychological thing really;)
    But indeed, a rear engined car will always have better traction that a front engined car, simple physics.




    Boxster's weight distribution is 46/54.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Ron (Houston) said:
    The Aston designer "Henrik Fisker" did work for BMW indeed and his last design was the BMW Z8.



    I had no idea. What a mistake to let him go and keep Bungle.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    W8MM said:
    I, too, think it's a real photo. But, I think the car was in motion when the pic was snapped



    I think its moving a bit since it loks more blurry than the backround, but the car is standing on its belly not the rear wheels IMO which is why its not falling over

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Carlos - thanks for the excellent explanation re 50/50 weight distribution. Why do I not read that sort of thing in all the car magazines!

    By the way, I did not say the Aston was an "old" man's car, just that it's an "older" man's car. The two are very different. I am looking forward to buying an Aston one day, it's just something I'm quite happy to put off for a few years.

    Re: EVO Magazine - New AM V8 and 997 S

    Quote:
    Carlos from Spain said:
    I think its moving a bit since it loks more blurry than the backround, but the car is standing on its belly not the rear wheels IMO which is why its not falling over



    Carlos,

    I have seen this picture somewhere on the web before. IIRC, it was taken during a suspension test session of some sort. I'm quite certain this 917 is about to come in for a landing

    What were the pic's "properties"(url) before you uploaded it to Rennteam?

     
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