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    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    "The safety agency did not identify the Tesla driver who was killed when a tractor-trailer turned in front of the car."

    Basically we should hold off any early conclusion. It is totally possible the autopilot encountered an event it was not programmed to handle, or that there was no way to avoid the accident, autopilot or human...


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    What a way to go, how sad.



    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Am I right in thinking that Tesla does not have a radar sensor as used by other manufacturers for collision avoidance systems?
    Both this incident and the video recently linked to of a Tesla colliding with a high-mounted obstacle out of the camera's field of view appear from the information so far published to be due to deficiencies in the sensors used or their layout.  


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    This Autopilot system is a huge marketing ploy, nothing more.

    Tesla asks people who use the Autopilot to keep their hands on the steering wheel and to be prepared to react and brake. So why do I need the Autopilot then? broken heart yes


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Because it is in beta...


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    SciFrog:

    Because it is in beta...

    Using software declared as a "beta" version on a PC is relatively harmless. Releasing a beta version autopilot software to the public for unsupervised use is, frankly, irresponsible. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Unless you tell people to keep their hands on the wheel? No one yet said autonomous cars will be accident free, they are saying the are safer than human drivers... Just yesterday was taking a left turn in a 3 lane road and the big truck on the left lane went in my lane and lightly clipped the rear of my loaner at 15mph. I was ahead of him. Would an autonomous car with today technology have help? I doubt it. Would a car that talks to other cars and has radars and cameras all around helped? Probably, but that's far in the future.

    After reading this tough it seems that it would have been likely avoided by a human:

     

     

    Joshua D. Brown, of Canton, Ohio, died in the May 7 crash in Williston, Florida, when his car’s cameras failed to distinguish the white side of a turning tractor-trailer rig from a brightly lit sky and didn’t automatically activate its brakes, according to government records and a Tesla statement issued Thursday.

    Brown, who owned a technology company, just one month earlier credited his 2015 Tesla with preventing a crash on an interstate highway. The government said it is investigating the design and performance of the Tesla system.

    Preliminary reports indicate the crash occurred when Baressi’s rig turned left in front of Brown at an intersection of a divided highway where there was no traffic light, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said. Brown died at the scene just southwest of Gainesville, the Florida Highway Patrol reported.

    By the time firefighters arrived, the Tesla wreckage — with its roof sheared off — had come to rest in a yard hundreds of feet from the crash site.

    Tesla said in a statement that this was the first known death in over 130 million miles of Autopilot operation. Before Autopilot can be used, drivers have to acknowledge that the system is an “assist feature” that requires both hands on the wheel. Drivers are told they need must be prepared to take over controls, the statement said.

    Autopilot checks to make sure a driver’s hands are on the wheel, and it gives visual and audible alerts if they aren’t. It also will gradually slow the car until the driver responds, the statement said.

    The system allows the Model S to steer itself within a lane, change lanes and speed up or slow down based on surrounding traffic or the driver’s set speed. It can automatically apply brakes and slow the vehicle.

    Tesla said Autopilot “results in a statistically significant improvement in safety.”

    Brown’s death comes as NHTSA is taking steps to ease self-driving cars onto the nation’s roads, an anticipated sea-change in driving where Tesla has been a leader. Self-driving cars are expected to eliminate human errors that are responsible for 94 percent of crashes.

    This is not the first time automatic braking systems have malfunctioned, and several have been recalled to fix problems. Last fall, Ford, for instance, recalled 37,000 F-150 pickups because they braked with nothing in the way. The company said the radar could become confused when passing a large, reflective truck.

    The technology relies on multiple cameras, radar, laser and computers to sense objects and determine if they are in the car’s way. Systems like Tesla’s, which rely heavily on cameras, “aren’t sophisticated enough to overcome blindness from bright or low contrast light,” said Mike Harley, an analyst at Kelley Blue Book.

    Harley said that more deaths can be expected as the autonomous technology is refined.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    fritz:
    SciFrog:

    Because it is in beta...

    Using software declared as a "beta" version on a PC is relatively harmless. Releasing a beta version autopilot software to the public for unsupervised use is, frankly, irresponsible

    It is indeed but Tesla needed some marketing tricks and this is one of them.

    Look at the Ludicrous mode (P90): A couple of times from standstill and the battery is empty. Seriously. Just imagine you do ten launch control starts in a Turbo S and the fuel tank is empty. This is ridiculous. Actually, I think that the Ludicrous mode drains the battery even faster, so ten times is wishful thinking.

    Also, to use Ludicrous mode, the battery needs to be...brace yourself...hot. In a very cold environment, Ludicrous mode doesn't work. 

    Tesla clearly has a history of offering beta versions of software and letting customers test new features but when it comes to safety, this needs to stop. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    SciFrog:

    Unless you tell people to keep their hands on the wheel? No one yet said autonomous cars will be accident free, they are saying the are safer than human drivers... Just yesterday was taking a left turn in a 3 lane road and the big truck on the left lane went in my lane and lightly clipped the rear of my loaner at 15mph. I was ahead of him. Would an autonomous car with today technology have help? I doubt it. Would a car that talks to other cars and has radars and cameras all around helped? Probably, but that's far in the future.

    After reading this tough it seems that it would have been likely avoided by a human:

     

     

    Joshua D. Brown, of Canton, Ohio, died in the May 7 crash in Williston, Florida, when his car’s cameras failed to distinguish the white side of a turning tractor-trailer rig from a brightly lit sky and didn’t automatically activate its brakes, according to government records and a Tesla statement issued Thursday.

    Brown, who owned a technology company, just one month earlier credited his 2015 Tesla with preventing a crash on an interstate highway. The government said it is investigating the design and performance of the Tesla system.

    Preliminary reports indicate the crash occurred when Baressi’s rig turned left in front of Brown at an intersection of a divided highway where there was no traffic light, the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said. Brown died at the scene just southwest of Gainesville, the Florida Highway Patrol reported.

    By the time firefighters arrived, the Tesla wreckage — with its roof sheared off — had come to rest in a yard hundreds of feet from the crash site.

    Tesla said in a statement that this was the first known death in over 130 million miles of Autopilot operation. Before Autopilot can be used, drivers have to acknowledge that the system is an “assist feature” that requires both hands on the wheel. Drivers are told they need must be prepared to take over controls, the statement said.

    Autopilot checks to make sure a driver’s hands are on the wheel, and it gives visual and audible alerts if they aren’t. It also will gradually slow the car until the driver responds, the statement said.

    The system allows the Model S to steer itself within a lane, change lanes and speed up or slow down based on surrounding traffic or the driver’s set speed. It can automatically apply brakes and slow the vehicle.

    Tesla said Autopilot “results in a statistically significant improvement in safety.”

    Brown’s death comes as NHTSA is taking steps to ease self-driving cars onto the nation’s roads, an anticipated sea-change in driving where Tesla has been a leader. Self-driving cars are expected to eliminate human errors that are responsible for 94 percent of crashes.

    This is not the first time automatic braking systems have malfunctioned, and several have been recalled to fix problems. Last fall, Ford, for instance, recalled 37,000 F-150 pickups because they braked with nothing in the way. The company said the radar could become confused when passing a large, reflective truck.

    The technology relies on multiple cameras, radar, laser and computers to sense objects and determine if they are in the car’s way. Systems like Tesla’s, which rely heavily on cameras, “aren’t sophisticated enough to overcome blindness from bright or low contrast light,” said Mike Harley, an analyst at Kelley Blue Book.

    Harley said that more deaths can be expected as the autonomous technology is refined.

    Just as I thought. Tesla's system appears to be a "fair weather" system relying on good light, no fog and no blinding light shining into the driver's eyes / cameras' lenses.  


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:
    fritz:
    SciFrog:

    Because it is in beta...

    Using software declared as a "beta" version on a PC is relatively harmless. Releasing a beta version autopilot software to the public for unsupervised use is, frankly, irresponsible

    It is indeed but Tesla needed some marketing tricks and this is one of them.

    Look at the Ludicrous mode (P90): A couple of times from standstill and the battery is empty. Seriously. Just imagine you do ten launch control starts in a Turbo S and the fuel tank is empty. This is ridiculous. Actually, I think that the Ludicrous mode drains the battery even faster, so ten times is wishful thinking.

    Also, to use Ludicrous mode, the battery needs to be...brace yourself...hot. In a very cold environment, Ludicrous mode doesn't work. 

    Tesla clearly has a history of offering beta versions of software and letting customers test new features but when it comes to safety, this needs to stop. 

    They knew what they were doing when they named it the Ludicrous mode. 


    --

    fritz


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Very few people get the ludicrous mode. It is a marketing feature. I was not planning to get it on the X if I pull the trigger. Same for 22" wheels, they reduce autonomy by 15%...

    Launch mode on a car? To me it is absolutely useless and I have never used it on any of my carsSmiley


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    SciFrog:

    Very few people get the ludicrous mode. It is a marketing feature. I was not planning to get it on the X if I pull the trigger. Same for 22" wheels, they reduce autonomy by 15%...

    Launch mode on a car? To me it is absolutely useless and I have never used it on any of my carsSmiley

    I'm debating between Cayenne and Model X, myself.  My son is pressuring me to buy the Model X...


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    SoCal Alan:
    SciFrog:

    Very few people get the ludicrous mode. It is a marketing feature. I was not planning to get it on the X if I pull the trigger. Same for 22" wheels, they reduce autonomy by 15%...

    Launch mode on a car? To me it is absolutely useless and I have never used it on any of my carsSmiley

    I'm debating between Cayenne and Model X, myself.  My son is pressuring me to buy the Model X...

    Seems to be the next "cool" SUV in the US but I wish Tesla would have designed the X a bit more SUV-like. Currently, the X looks more like a Minivan, which is a total no-go for me...or my wife (she hates Minivans more than station wagons... Smiley).


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    I don't trust other drivers in cars, much less an "autonomously driven" car!


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    964C2:

    I don't trust other drivers in cars, much less an "autonomously driven" car!

    When the saleslady asked me if I wanted to use the Autopilot mode (while test driving the Model X on Pacific Coast Highway), I said no thanks. Smiley


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:
    SoCal Alan:
    SciFrog:

    Very few people get the ludicrous mode. It is a marketing feature. I was not planning to get it on the X if I pull the trigger. Same for 22" wheels, they reduce autonomy by 15%...

    Launch mode on a car? To me it is absolutely useless and I have never used it on any of my carsSmiley

    I'm debating between Cayenne and Model X, myself.  My son is pressuring me to buy the Model X...

    Seems to be the next "cool" SUV in the US but I wish Tesla would have designed the X a bit more SUV-like. Currently, the X looks more like a Minivan, which is a total no-go for me...or my wife (she hates Minivans more than station wagons... Smiley).

    That's the dirty secret of the X. It is functional like a minivan, has AWD like a SUV, accelerates like a sport car, can use HOV lanes like a Prius, seats 7 people better than a Q7 or X5 and looks like a crossover. Plus because of the technology it is a "cool" car. Pure genius made only possible by not being afraid to go back to the drawing board and use out of the box solutions. If you can live with the current battery limitations and the somewhat lesser interior than the top of the segment, it is THE car of the decade.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    964C2:

    I don't trust other drivers in cars, much less an "autonomously driven" car!

    Remember, it's not really autonomous, it's driven by software connected to hardware. Most non-trivial software has bugs and/or boundary conditions under which it may behave unpredictably. The same is true of the hardware. I don't think I will ever want to put my life in the hands of software in that way.

    And, no, this is not really the same as autopilot on a plane.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    apias:
    964C2:

    I don't trust other drivers in cars, much less an "autonomously driven" car!

    Remember, it's not really autonomous, it's driven by software connected to hardware.

     

    These aren't mutually exclusive. 

    Interesting that the Tesla official term is not "autopilot". Is this true?

    This is very misleading.  Autopilot, to me, means, "set it and forget it".  Tesla requires, however, that you keep your hands on the wheel.


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    SoCal Alan:
    apias:
    964C2:

    I don't trust other drivers in cars, much less an "autonomously driven" car!

    Remember, it's not really autonomous, it's driven by software connected to hardware.

    These aren't mutually exclusive. 

    The point being, software is fallible and I would rather not trust a programmer to be in control of a moving vehicle I'm in.

    Interestingly, though, Rolls-Royce seems to be going all in on autonomous vehicles, I guess so you don't have to hire a chauffeur.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    I test drove the model x a few weeks ago with my wife. My wife is demanding it as her next suv. Fortunately I loved it too. I will be getting a 90D for the end of the year. The only thing I didn't like was a bad reflect from the dash on the wind screen. Everything about it I loved. Even the quality seems a step forward. It's not an Audi in that department but I don't see any other suv out there I want more right now. 


    --

    2013 BMW 750 xDrive & 2014 x5 & 2014 991 TTS Cab 2014 BMW i3 2017 Porsche Mission E & 991.2 GT3 on order


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    EnglishManInNY:

    I test drove the model x a few weeks ago with my wife. My wife is demanding it as her next suv. Fortunately I loved it too. I will be getting a 90D for the end of the year. The only thing I didn't like was a bad reflect from the dash on the wind screen. Everything about it I loved. Even the quality seems a step forward. It's not an Audi in that department but I don't see any other suv out there I want more right now. 

    Get the P90D !!!


    --

    2005 997S Blk/Blk


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    SoCal Alan:
    EnglishManInNY:

    I test drove the model x a few weeks ago with my wife. My wife is demanding it as her next suv. Fortunately I loved it too. I will be getting a 90D for the end of the year. The only thing I didn't like was a bad reflect from the dash on the wind screen. Everything about it I loved. Even the quality seems a step forward. It's not an Audi in that department but I don't see any other suv out there I want more right now. 

    Get the P90D !!!

    +1

    P90D with all the goodies, about $130k. Well worth it. I already specced mine, just waiting for approval from the boss and hookup in my rented garage. It is this or a red GLS 63 AMG but this "tank" has no of cool factor whatsoever vs the most innovative car on the market. No doubt the german brands will catch up and surpass Tesla, but right now, the X is THE car of the decade due to the risks taken during development.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    We are probably getting a 90D. 

    The Ludicrious mode is fun, but 30.000,- € extra for something I might use only 3 times is just not worth it. In the standard mode the cars are almost the same, you have to activate ludicrous to get a difference. Also - range at the end is most important and the 90D is just 15% better.

     


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    After listening to a 610 hp V10 engine for over 700 km this weekend, I wouldn't set a foot in an ELV even if this thing does 0-100 kph in one second.  angry

    Next family car on our radar: RS6 Performance or next gen Cayenne Turbo (if they get the exhaust sound right).

     


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Carrera 4 GTS Cabriolet, Porsche Macan Turbo, Audi R8 V10 Plus (2017), Mini JCW (2015), Jeep Grand Cherokee SRT (2014)


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    Lars997:

    We are probably getting a 90D. 

    The Ludicrious mode is fun, but 30.000,- € extra for something I might use only 3 times is just not worth it. In the standard mode the cars are almost the same, you have to activate ludicrous to get a difference. Also - range at the end is most important and the 90D is just 15% better.

     

    The 90D is rated 257 miles and the P90D 250 miles. The 15% difference is if you select 22" wheels vs 20". 90D is 4.8 0-60 but the 90D 3.8s. For the extra $20k we think the P90D is worth it.


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:

    After listening to a 610 hp V10 engine for over 700 km this weekend, I wouldn't set a foot in an ELV even if this thing does 0-100 kph in one second.  angry

    Next family car on our radar: RS6 Performance or next gen Cayenne Turbo (if they get the exhaust sound right).

    You are going all out Audi Smiley

    Then again, so would I. These Audis are being more fun than Porsches angry


    --

    2015 981 Cayman GT4 | Powerkit White - The fastest car on Rennteam
    2013 Audi S3 | Glacier White


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    RC:

    After listening to a 610 hp V10 engine for over 700 km this weekend, I wouldn't set a foot in an ELV even if this thing does 0-100 kph in one second.  angry

    Next family car on our radar: RS6 Performance or next gen Cayenne Turbo (if they get the exhaust sound right).

     

    Two different purposes... One is a daily driver the other is a weekend toy... Few cars sound as good as your V10...


    Re: Self-Driving Tesla Was Involved in Fatal Crash

    SciFrog:
    RC:

    After listening to a 610 hp V10 engine for over 700 km this weekend, I wouldn't set a foot in an ELV even if this thing does 0-100 kph in one second.  angry

    Next family car on our radar: RS6 Performance or next gen Cayenne Turbo (if they get the exhaust sound right).

     

    Two different purposes... One is a daily driver the other is a weekend toy... Few cars sound as good as your V10...

    And that raises a good point - in the future regulatory states our daily drivers are going to be more boring even if we are still piloting them ourselves and not robotically, so our weekend toys need to be even more exciting to compensate - but the same regulatory states will also condemn the toys to be as boring as the DDs (noise restrictions, the move to small displacement+turbo motors etc).   Seems to me this will not be in the best interests of the German auto industry, whose superiority is premised on the performance driving details and nuances that are slowly disappearing.  


    --

    2011 Range Rover Sport S/C,  2009 Porsche 911S


     
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