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    I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    https://www.motor1.com/news/489509/porsche-synthetic-fuel-2022-production/

    85% clean as an EV. Yikes Who would have thought it was possible.


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    The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    nberry:

    https://www.motor1.com/news/489509/porsche-synthetic-fuel-2022-production/

    85% clean as an EV. Yikes Who would have thought it was possible.

    I read about this a while ago but I don’t know if this will be successful. It will be important how much it will cost in comparison to power/energy cost for EVs. Also, I believe that once the EV train starts to gain speed, there is no real need for synthetic fuels. EV performance cars will also be much faster than ICE cars and the next generation of drivers isn’t that fixated on emotional driving as we are.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)

     


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    These fuels will only be able to be manufactured in tiny quantities.  Your Porsche dealer may have a synthetic fuel pump, and Porsche will likely bring a fuel truck to official Porsche track events but that will be the extent of synthetic fuel availability.


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    GT-Boy:

    These fuels will only be able to be manufactured in tiny quantities.  Your Porsche dealer may have a synthetic fuel pump, and Porsche will likely bring a fuel truck to official Porsche track events but that will be the extent of synthetic fuel availability.

    I am going to be even more harsh.  If I was an investor in Porsche and I saw this detour being financed when they are so far behind the EV ball I would be pissed. This is complete nonsense. Period.  And yes it is an old story. 


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    When you consider the cost of infrastructure for EV’s, battery production and disposal and human resource issues, a fuel that’s 85% as clean as EV is a major initiative. I don’t know if it can be produced in bulk but if so, why transition to EV? The infrastructure is already in place. Porsche won’t be doing this unless they see an upside.


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    The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    EV with current battery tech full of rare earth elements is a sweet dream. Till the battery is made with much less limited material and the possibility to charge it in no time (<10-15 min) then ICE will be there. Hydrogen fuel cells are being studied deeply and I already mentioned that 2 years ago as I did some work on it and this is where they want to go. Hydrogen batteries will fuel an electric motor and you have your EV functioning the same way as ICE package.


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    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    There are still many things that are powered by fuel that aren't cars and won't be replaced with a electric version for a long long time.

    One needs to see the bigger picture on what synthetic fuel can do to replace traditional fossil fuel.

     


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    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    The other reason Porsche is pushing Synthetic Fuel is that they don't want to lose their hard earned ICE Motorsport expertise that they have accumulated over decades.  If the future of Motorsport is EV, then Porsche is starting from Zero just like everyone else and their ICE Motorsport expertise is useless.  Porsche is on record saying that many Race Series should move to ICEs using Synthetic Fuels.


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    correct - and the fuel comes from the UK angry


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    the-missile:

    EV with current battery tech full of rare earth elements is a sweet dream. Till the battery is made with much less limited material and the possibility to charge it in no time (<10-15 min) then ICE will be there. Hydrogen fuel cells are being studied deeply and I already mentioned that 2 years ago as I did some work on it and this is where they want to go. Hydrogen batteries will fuel an electric motor and you have your EV functioning the same way as ICE package.

    Hydrogen makes only sense in busses, trucks, etc., not in cars. Unless new innovative tech makes it to the markets. 

    Once new battery tech is available, hydrogen is done anyway. It is much simpler to charge your car at home.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    Charge your car at home if the network allows you to do so. We are very far from that across Europe. The power demand is already to the roof in winter season so how can you handle the demand of just 10% of the population is getting equipped with EV car and all need a charge at the same time? 
    this is not realistic. 
     


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    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    the-missile:

    Charge your car at home if the network allows you to do so. We are very far from that across Europe. The power demand is already to the roof in winter season so how can you handle the demand of just 10% of the population is getting equipped with EV car and all need a charge at the same time? 
    this is not realistic. 
     

    I was talking about new tech and this new tech is coming...including new and more efficient solar panels and batteries. 

    One of my customers works in the hydrogen fuel cells development and he said that they will work fine in larger vehicles but that the issues on cars and smaller vehicles are too complex to be solved any time soon, so he too thinks that EVs with charging at power outlets, not fueling up at hydrogen stations, will have a future. He is still into hydrogen stocks (like many other people) but I think this tech has no future (right now) for ordinary cars.


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    the-missile:

    Charge your car at home if the network allows you to do so. We are very far from that across Europe. The power demand is already to the roof in winter season so how can you handle the demand of just 10% of the population is getting equipped with EV car and all need a charge at the same time? 
    this is not realistic. 
     

    To put charging your car at home in perspective - out of my $200 monthly bill about $15 of it is car charging. Or about $.50 per day. In addition - Of all your electric use this one can be scheduled for off peak. 
    At some point soon (Lucent for one) EVs will be able to use their battery to back up you home and also to load level your or the communities wind and solar power.  The effect of millions of EVs attached to the grid to balance and distribute power is similar to how the internet has redundant packet switching to route data. 
    My fear is that this will actually delay upgrades to the grid as it will be a major stabilizing factor in time. 
    At any rate it makes more sense to have one power source for everything rather than some outlier for cars in the long run.  Then all you need is to focus on one type of power and distribution.  
     


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    RC:

    I was talking about new tech and this new tech is coming...including new and more efficient solar panels and batteries. 

    I am not worried about the batteries as there is no issue on that side apart it is taking unreasonable amount of rare earths that are in finite and limited quantity but it is completely outside the subject.

    the issue is the charger and that brings few challenges to the game. The first one is the nominal voltage as single phase can bring unbalance to the network. Tri-phase system is another issue as most homes are not equipped with this kind of supply as you have normally a single phase supply at home (in France, 99.9%). Depending on how low is your battery, you may need the booster to require high current for extended period of time then all will have the same requirement (majority works during day time) and you will overload the electrical network. Add to this the normal mode and the floating mode and a battery requires permanent connection to the network to maintain its efficiency. This is where is the concern, how to fill it within millions of homes.  

    For the solar panels as it is the same for the wind farms, good luck. Depending our power supply on this is a joke and a sweet dream for Europe. I can agree to a certain extent for the solar panels, in specific place in the world like desert area where the sun is there almost the entire year but in Europe, no chance.

    One of my customers works in the hydrogen fuel cells development and he said that they will work fine in larger vehicles but that the issues on cars and smaller vehicles are too complex to be solved any time soon, so he too thinks that EVs with charging at power outlets, not fueling up at hydrogen stations, will have a future. He is still into hydrogen stocks (like many other people) but I think this tech has no future (right now) for ordinary cars.

    neither current solution is ready for the show neither have realistic future solution with current state and shape of the infrastructure.


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    GT Lover, Porsche fan

    991.2 GT3 manual

    Cayenne GTS 2014


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    Hydrogen can be dispensed at the present gas stations just as Porsche’s synthetic fuel.


    --

    The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    nberry:

    Hydrogen can be dispensed at the present gas stations just as Porsche’s synthetic fuel.

    So why hasn't hydrogen had a breakthrough? BMW is offering hydrogen cars for a couple of years now (mostly for companies and beta testing) and there are even hydrogen fuel stations here in Bavaria. Smiley

    shell-wasserstoff-tankstelle-bremen.png

    BMW-i-Hydrogen-Next-fuel-cell-6.jpg


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    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Lamborghini Huracan Performante (2019), Mercedes GLC63 S AMG (2020), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Jeep Grand Cherokee Trackhawk (2019 EU)


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    One reason is storage of the hydrogen in the vehicle. It requires a special tank.


    --

    The purpose of life is to enjoy the moment.


    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    GT-Boy:

    The other reason Porsche is pushing Synthetic Fuel is that they don't want to lose their hard earned ICE Motorsport expertise that they have accumulated over decades.  If the future of Motorsport is EV, then Porsche is starting from Zero just like everyone else and their ICE Motorsport expertise is useless.  Porsche is on record saying that many Race Series should move to ICEs using Synthetic Fuels.

     

    Hmm, there isn't a separation of 'ICE Motorsport' expertise vs 'EV Motorsport' expertise...........

    Majority of Porsche's expertise are in the handling department and understanding rule books and there isn't a difference between using a electric motor or a normal engine in those area.

    Engines in race series are strictly regulated and all are artificially performance capped. EV racing, i.e. Formula E, are even stricter with everyone running basically the same unit. It's a spec race, on street tires.

    Asking other race series to use synthetic fuel make sense as people love watching motorsport WITH SOUND, and to be able to continue to do that while being politically acceptable, switching to 'green fuel' is an attractive option. 


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    Re: I think this is a MAJOR development for combustion engines and Porsche

    The small molecules of hydrogen make storage extremely difficult because the gas leaks past even the tightest of seals.  However, inventions like the following could alter the economics favorable. https://www.renewableenergymagazine.com/hydrogen/new-powerpaste-for-hydrogen-storage-20210204


     
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