Crown

Forum - Thread


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    I think that the only non-S Porsche sportscar that sells is the Boxster. Real entry level car.

    Not so sure about it. I see many Carrera Cabs in Germany too. Probably people who want to have a 911 Cab but don't care too much about maximum performance. Smiley

    Speaking of Porsche: I'm in Austria right now and during my trip to the skiing resort, I think I met 50(!) Cayenne. Smiley Now the most curious part: Either Diesel/V6 (I think) or GTS. Saw only very few S and only one single Turbo. No S Diesel btw., I wonder who buys this model. Smiley  


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC ,

    I'm a huge fan of rennteam, and despite the fact I love reading your comments, I have no so much time to contribute and I m sorry for this. Nevertheless, when I see so much feedbacks on your fully objective comments regarding GT3 and turbo S, I cannot help myself raising my voice  : guys, come on, did RC deliver some inaccurate data and specs in the last few years ? Was he one time not objective about reviews and performance ?

    I think this is a crazy debate and there is no doubt that turbo s will be faster than GT3. Certainly less agile, more raw, but  still faster , especially on autobahn.I sold my gt3 mkII 1.5 year ago, and was waiting for 991.

    Now I need to drive it real in order to understand if PDK will be my taste or not. I was always a gt3 fan, and I m still. lIwill still argue on the supremacy of the gt3 because I like it so muchSmiley

    but common I will not try to  make statement that are nonsense.

    RC, again so many thanks for the nice info shared I this forum, and looking forward to meeting you and your turbo s in person once I would have found the gt3 I look for.

    xPS : I have not ordered a brand new car because of the bloody French government who decide to put a 8000 euro ecotaxe on the car, raising the car registration to something like 10 000 euro. I will not pay the Renault scenic and Clio bonuses from the other. Smiley This is a question of principle.

    I m condemned to wait a second hand with low mileage......

    and the the wait is killing me .........

    long life to the forum and happy new year to all of you guys !!!

     

     


    --

    997 Carrera S Triple Black Sold now ... Good car 997 GT3 triple black wow what a car !!!


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Thank you but maybe you are the first who actually got my "point": The GT3 is a great car. Apparently there is a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of superficial reading of my posts (all of them in a thread because they are connected) and of course some pride (and maybe a little antipathy here and there, maybe even some professional bashing) involved. I get it. I just find it said that some people seem, like you said, to appreciate the content of Rennteam but sometimes are only willing to accept certain facts which please them, ignoring (or even bashing) the not so pleasing stuff. This is of course human but I am a little bit disappointed, especially when I seem to give some users the impression that I bash the GT3. I don't, on the contrary.

    Unlike many others here, I have driven both, even back to back and even pretty early. This is why I made the comparison. Everything started with that italian comparison and it could have been a decent discussion. Unfortunately it ended up with me, as a Turbo S, defending my car and GT3 owners (or owners in spe) doing the same. What a pity.

    All I did was trying to help people to make the right buying decision. Smiley

    Btw: I sometimes get the feeling that some Rennteam users believe I work and advertise for Porsche. I do not. Porsche has no saying in Rennteam, they do not pay us to advertise their products, they do not influence us, they do not ask us to stop saying something bad about a product, they do not censor us, nothing. Actually, the only thing Porsche has done for us (or me) was as a Porsche customer, not as RC from Rennteam. So next time someone accuses me of advertising Porsche products, please be aware that this is not true. I have no professional or commercial ties to Porsche, strictly private and as a customer.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Thank you but maybe you are the first who actually got my "point": The GT3 is a great car. Apparently there is a lot of misunderstanding, a lot of superficial reading of my posts (all of them in a thread because they are connected) and of course some pride (and maybe a little antipathy here and there, maybe even some professional bashing) involved. I get it. I just find it said that some people seem, like you said, to appreciate the content of Rennteam but sometimes are only willing to accept certain facts which please them, ignoring (or even bashing) the not so pleasing stuff. This is of course human but I am a little bit disappointed, especially when I seem to give some users the impression that I bash the GT3. I don't, on the contrary.

    Unlike many others here, I have driven both, even back to back and even pretty early. This is why I made the comparison. Everything started with that italian comparison and it could have been a decent discussion. Unfortunately it ended up with me, as a Turbo S, defending my car and GT3 owners (or owners in spe) doing the same. What a pity.

    All I did was trying to help people to make the right buying decision. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    RC, why don't you open a new subject: "GT3 vs Turbo S"?
    As you've driven both, your input could/should be welcome and very interesting. :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Maybe because it doesn't have any point in my opinion? I don't think that the typical GT3 customer would opt for a Turbo S and vice versa. This was exactly my point all the time. This is also the reason why I mentioned I would love to own both. The GT3 and the Turbo S are for a different type of customer group in my opinion. I also think that someone buying a Turbo S mainly for track racing is doing something very very wrong. I said this many times but people read my posts only superficially and don't connect the dots. Also, there are some professional provocateurs here who seem to think it is fun to bash the GT3, then the Turbo S and maybe every other Porsche, just for the fun of it. We took some steps to keep a lid on these people. Long time users have all the right to make a point, newer users need to earn our trust. I think this is only fair.

    Btw: Would I buy a GT3 for street driving only? Hell yes. It is 60k EUR cheaper than the Turbo S, it is a lot of fun to drive and performance is much better than on the Carrera S (which costs almost the same with some options). Just don't expect to be faster than a Turbo S then. This is all I was saying and I think it sounds very reasonable.

    As to the upcoming GT3 RS, I said many times that this is going to be an amazing product but less compromises than the GT3. It will be a great track car, a great fun car but to use it's full capabilities, you need to drive it on the track. The price difference between the GT3 and GT3 RS is just too big to use the RS just for normal street driving. 

    Now I better stop before I make things sound even more confusing. 

    Bottom line is: Both are great cars but buyers need to know what they want and need. There seems to be a lot of prejudice going on for both cars and since I've driven both, this makes me a little bit sad (and disappointed). If you read a lie, you don't get upset? yes


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    I don't think that the typical GT3 customer would opt for a Turbo S and vice versa. 

    +1

    And, if I can add, I think the Turbo S is a little bit too expensive... Almost the price of the new Lamborghini Huracan (I don't mention the 458 Italia since the Huracan seems to have better performances and 4x4 traction like the Turbo S...).

    But the subject of this topic is the GT3! Can't wait to get mine... And share with you my feedback and review. :)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    I think that the only non-S Porsche sportscar that sells is the Boxster. Real entry level car.

    I see more 997 Carrera (non-S) than 987 Boxster (non-S) here in Zürich. Then again this place is pretty 911 dense in general Smiley


    --

    2014 981 Boxster S | Riviera Blue | PDK | Sport Suspension (-20mm) | PCCB | PTV | PSE
    2010 997.2 C2S | Carrara White | Manual | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE | OZ Superforgiata
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

    Previous
    2008 997.1 C4S | Guards Red | Manual | PSE | Bilstein PSS10 | H&R Roll Bars | Dension 500
    2007 997.1 Turbo | Meteor Gray | Manual | Bilstein PSS10 | Cargraphic Stage 2 | Dension 500
    2005 987.1 Boxster S | Arctic Silver | Manual | OZ Ultraleggera | H&R Cup Suspension | H&R Roll Bars | Sachs Racing Clutch | Recaro Shells
    2005 997.1 C2S | Atlas Gray | Manual | PSE | Sport Suspension (-20mm)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Speaking of Porsche: I'm in Austria right now and during my trip to the skiing resort, I think I met 50(!) Cayenne. Smiley Now the most curious part: Either Diesel/V6 (I think) or GTS. Saw only very few S and only one single Turbo. No S Diesel btw., I wonder who buys this model. Smiley  

    Hehe, I was in Austria over Christmas and I lost count on the number of Cayenne we met Smiley


    --

    2014 981 Boxster S | Riviera Blue | PDK | Sport Suspension (-20mm) | PCCB | PTV | PSE
    2010 997.2 C2S | Carrara White | Manual | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE | OZ Superforgiata
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

    Previous
    2008 997.1 C4S | Guards Red | Manual | PSE | Bilstein PSS10 | H&R Roll Bars | Dension 500
    2007 997.1 Turbo | Meteor Gray | Manual | Bilstein PSS10 | Cargraphic Stage 2 | Dension 500
    2005 987.1 Boxster S | Arctic Silver | Manual | OZ Ultraleggera | H&R Cup Suspension | H&R Roll Bars | Sachs Racing Clutch | Recaro Shells
    2005 997.1 C2S | Atlas Gray | Manual | PSE | Sport Suspension (-20mm)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Maybe because it doesn't have any point in my opinion? I don't think that the typical GT3 customer would opt for a Turbo S and vice versa. This was exactly my point all the time. This is also the reason why I mentioned I would love to own both. The GT3 and the Turbo S are for a different type of customer group in my opinion. I also think that someone buying a Turbo S mainly for track racing is doing something very very wrong. I said this many times but people read my posts only superficially and don't connect the dots. Also, there are some professional provocateurs here who seem to think it is fun to bash the GT3, then the Turbo S and maybe every other Porsche, just for the fun of it. We took some steps to keep a lid on these people. Long time users have all the right to make a point, newer users need to earn our trust. I think this is only fair.

    Btw: Would I buy a GT3 for street driving only? Hell yes. It is 60k EUR cheaper than the Turbo S, it is a lot of fun to drive and performance is much better than on the Carrera S (which costs almost the same with some options). Just don't expect to be faster than a Turbo S then. This is all I was saying and I think it sounds very reasonable.

    As to the upcoming GT3 RS, I said many times that this is going to be an amazing product but less compromises than the GT3. It will be a great track car, a great fun car but to use it's full capabilities, you need to drive it on the track. The price difference between the GT3 and GT3 RS is just too big to use the RS just for normal street driving. 

    Now I better stop before I make things sound even more confusing. 

    Bottom line is: Both are great cars but buyers need to know what they want and need. There seems to be a lot of prejudice going on for both cars and since I've driven both, this makes me a little bit sad (and disappointed). If you read a lie, you don't get upset? yes

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:

    Because the 991 Turbo is a bad deal vs. the Turbo S? With the same options, the price difference is ridiculous, so why order a Turbo instead (unless you have to for tax reasons, whatever).

    I did some comparisons and calculations using the configurator the other day and, in terms of cost per unit of horsepower, the 911 Turbo S vs the Turbo may be the best deal Porsche offers. Assuming you spec the non-S version to match the base S version as closely as possible and then assume the remaining price difference is for the engine power alone, the cost difference is (in the US at least) only around $8,500*, or ~$210/unit of hp. In comparison, the Panamera & Cayenne Turbo S vs Turbo are about $20,000 more (once the Turbo is otherwise spec'd up to S level), or ~$400/unit of hp. And the Carrera S Powerkit, which is $13,000 for the engine upgrades, comes out to ~$433/unit of hp.

    So, unless you don't want some of the Performance options, or things like the LED lights, that are standard on the Turbo S, the 911 Turbo S is the "bargain" of Porsche's offerings of S vs non-S. (For the Turbos, at least, I didn't do base vs S comparisons across model lines.)

    * The cost difference can further narrow, depending on other options, if you add them to both the Turbo S and Turbo.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    Btw: Would I buy a GT3 for street driving only? Hell yes. It is 60k EUR cheaper than the Turbo S, it is a lot of fun to drive and performance is much better than on the Carrera S (which costs almost the same with some options). Just don't expect to be faster than a Turbo S then. This is all I was saying and I think it sounds very reasonable.

    Smiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    vevesse:
    RC:
    Btw: Would I buy a GT3 for street driving only? Hell yes. It is 60k EUR cheaper than the Turbo S, it is a lot of fun to drive and performance is much better than on the Carrera S (which costs almost the same with some options). Just don't expect to be faster than a Turbo S then. This is all I was saying and I think it sounds very reasonable.

    Smiley

    sure, but i expect the GT3 to be much more fun than the turbo S. in fact i know it is (for me). all this is in no contradiction, you just have to know what you want. a sporty GT car or a sports car with GT capabilities. not sure why there is an argument...

    well maybe the problem is the RC wants to make everyone believe that the turbo s in the 'eierlegendevollmilchsau' (translation: the pig which lays eggs and gives milk, i.e. the one solution to every problem). if we all agree  that the turbo s is faster than the GT3 than RC may be able to sleep better...


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Porsche 991 GT3 driven on European roads by Macca...


    ...all due credit to Macca and his Porsche 991 GT3!

    Smiley SmileySmiley

    Thanks Boxter Coupe GTS for taking the time and effort to do this transfer Smiley

    I went over to the other forum to read Macca's reports . I had not been to that forum for more then 2 years I think. I was very surprised at the amount of posts and activity there seems to be there . Saw quite a few avatar from this forum . It looked to have more references then on here Smiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Gnil:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Porsche 991 GT3 driven on European roads by Macca...

     

    ...all due credit to Macca and his Porsche 991 GT3!

    Smiley SmileySmiley

    Thanks Boxter Coupe GTS for taking the time and effort to do this transfer Smiley

    I went over to the other forum to read Macca's reports . I had not been to that forum for more then 2 years I think. I was very surprised at the amount of posts and activity there seems to be there . Saw quite a few avatar from this forum . It looked to have more references then on here Smiley

    Funnily enough you are well known by name on that forum too Smiley I wonder why? SmileySmileySmiley

    Thanks for the transfer! Smiley


    --

    2014 981 Boxster S | Riviera Blue | PDK | Sport Suspension (-20mm) | PCCB | PTV | PSE
    2010 997.2 C2S | Carrara White | Manual | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE | OZ Superforgiata
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

    Previous
    2008 997.1 C4S | Guards Red | Manual | PSE | Bilstein PSS10 | H&R Roll Bars | Dension 500
    2007 997.1 Turbo | Meteor Gray | Manual | Bilstein PSS10 | Cargraphic Stage 2 | Dension 500
    2005 987.1 Boxster S | Arctic Silver | Manual | OZ Ultraleggera | H&R Cup Suspension | H&R Roll Bars | Sachs Racing Clutch | Recaro Shells
    2005 997.1 C2S | Atlas Gray | Manual | PSE | Sport Suspension (-20mm)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    bluelines:
    Gnil:
    Boxster Coupe GTS:

    Porsche 991 GT3 driven on European roads by Macca...

     

    ...all due credit to Macca and his Porsche 991 GT3!

    Smiley SmileySmiley

    Thanks Boxter Coupe GTS for taking the time and effort to do this transfer Smiley

    I went over to the other forum to read Macca's reports . I had not been to that forum for more then 2 years I think. I was very surprised at the amount of posts and activity there seems to be there . Saw quite a few avatar from this forum . It looked to have more references then on here Smiley

    Funnily enough you are well known by name on that forum too Smiley I wonder why? SmileySmileySmiley

    Thanks for the transfer! Smiley

    probably some leaks a year ago ….  but I promise, I will not reveal my source SmileySmiley


    --

     997.2 C2S, PDK, -20mm


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC - thank you for the hints about the new RS :)

    I believe the new GT3 RS will be shown at Geneva in March and some info will be given to dealers in February. Cars can be specced in March for those who have a deposit. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    andyFE:
    well maybe the problem is the RC wants to make everyone believe that the turbo s in the 'eierlegendevollmilchsau' (translation: the pig which lays eggs and gives milk, i.e. the one solution to every problem). if we all agree  that the turbo s is faster than the GT3 than RC may be able to sleep better...

    It actually is...with one little exception: Whoever wants to seriously track race, not just a couple of rounds for the usual fun or some driving ed events, should not opt for the Turbo S. Cost is much higher vs. the GT3, I would also order the GT3 without PCCB and the additional weight of the Turbo S will take it's toll after a number of extensive rounds on the track. This is also the reason why I don't think that anyone should seriously consider the Turbo S over the GT3 for track racing.

    As to the fun part: One reason I wanted to go for the GT3 instead of the next gen Turbo/S was my experience with my previous 997 Turbo. Even tuned to over 550 hp and equipped with a sport exhaust, this car was only limited fun. It felt too sterile and the chassis wasn't really on it's top of the game. So I wanted something else for a change and the GT3 just fit in perfectly. Until a "friend" advised me to go for the 991 Turbo S since he knows me well and knows what I was looking for. He was right, the Turbo S is a lot of fun and most buyers and reviewers seem to agree with me. It is interesting to read the many negative comments about the Turbo S coming from people who I sometimes suspect haven't even driven one or not for a prolonged period of time. Doing a couple of miles around the dealership doesn't say much about the car. Also, it should be compared to the old Turbo S, not the GT3. Although Porsche did a great job making the Turbo S feel lighter, more agile and more direct (steering).

    So in my opinion and I repeat myself, I think that the GT3 and the Turbo S are the same fun for different people, depending on what they are looking for. The Turbo S is not as boring as the "old" one, the developers took the criticism to their heart and tried to create more emotions. Successfully. 
    As to the new Turbo S being too expensive, I agree. I think I mentioned the reasons for that but of course it shouldn't be my job to find excuses for Porsche. The car is expensive and if the new Huracan or even R8 provide the same performance at 20-30k EUR less, Porsche could be in trouble. I think Porsche is aware of that and I know that they are working on improvements. I just wish these improvements would be for free, like McLaren did once. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I keep reading people referring to the fun factor in the GT3. Are they just repeating journalists' quotes about fun? Or are they having fun in their GT3?

    What is fun?

    Is enjoying the 9000rpm song fun? Or the bumpier ride fun? Or the fact that it's rear wheel drive only so it's perceived to be easier to slide the tail out fun?

    The Turbo S has space shuttle launch type acceleration G-forces, isn't that fun? It may not have the absolute cornering grip of a GT3, but it's pretty damn close, isn't that fun enough? Even at speed at any rpm, it still has rocket like accelerations, unlike the GT3 which needs to be in high rpm to have that kind of power, isn't that acceleration speed junkie craves?

     


    --

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    RC:
    andyFE:
    well maybe the problem is the RC wants to make everyone believe that the turbo s in the 'eierlegendevollmilchsau' (translation: the pig which lays eggs and gives milk, i.e. the one solution to every problem). if we all agree  that the turbo s is faster than the GT3 than RC may be able to sleep better...

    It actually is...with one little exception: Whoever wants to seriously track race, not just a couple of rounds for the usual fun or some driving ed events, should not opt for the Turbo S. Cost is much higher vs. the GT3, I would also order the GT3 without PCCB and the additional weight of the Turbo S will take it's toll after a number of extensive rounds on the track. This is also the reason why I don't think that anyone should seriously consider the Turbo S over the GT3 for track racing.

    As to the fun part: One reason I wanted to go for the GT3 instead of the next gen Turbo/S was my experience with my previous 997 Turbo. Even tuned to over 550 hp and equipped with a sport exhaust, this car was only limited fun. It felt too sterile and the chassis wasn't really on it's top of the game. So I wanted something else for a change and the GT3 just fit in perfectly. Until a "friend" advised me to go for the 991 Turbo S since he knows me well and knows what I was looking for. He was right, the Turbo S is a lot of fun and most buyers and reviewers seem to agree with me. It is interesting to read the many negative comments about the Turbo S coming from people who I sometimes suspect haven't even driven one or not for a prolonged period of time. Doing a couple of miles around the dealership doesn't say much about the car. Also, it should be compared to the old Turbo S, not the GT3. Although Porsche did a great job making the Turbo S feel lighter, more agile and more direct (steering).

    So in my opinion and I repeat myself, I think that the GT3 and the Turbo S are the same fun for different people, depending on what they are looking for. The Turbo S is not as boring as the "old" one, the developers took the criticism to their heart and tried to create more emotions. Successfully. 
    As to the new Turbo S being too expensive, I agree. I think I mentioned the reasons for that but of course it shouldn't be my job to find excuses for Porsche. The car is expensive and if the new Huracan or even R8 provide the same performance at 20-30k EUR less, Porsche could be in trouble. I think Porsche is aware of that and I know that they are working on improvements. I just wish these improvements would be for free, like McLaren did once. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)

    well, here is my criticism (again), for street driving:

    1)150kg (at least) too heavy. and please RC, don't tell me you don't feel the weight in twisties. it is there and shows in the weight transfers. the only way to overlook this is too be overwhelmed by the car's torque and FWD road adhesion. for the money porsche is asking for the car they should use more exotic materials to make is lighter.

    2)the sound from the interior is a ridiculous nothing (better from outside). some artificial quasi-periodic low frequency noise which makes me think that they should fire their sound engineers. any house-DJ could do better.

    3)design: very basic, too high rear end. looks are just ....ordinary. some road presence yes, but they could improve a lot in this. i am wondering: is is that the porsche designers are such a conservative bunch or is it the customers?

    i hope for the 960 to improve on these issues.


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Whoopsy:

    I keep reading people referring to the fun factor in the GT3. Are they just repeating journalists' quotes about fun? Or are they having fun in their GT3?

    What is fun?

    Is enjoying the 9000rpm song fun?

     

    yes, precisely. 

     

    Or the bumpier ride fun? Or the fact that it's rear wheel drive only so it's perceived to be easier to slide the tail out fun?

    The Turbo S has space shuttle launch type acceleration G-forces, isn't that fun? It may not have the absolute cornering grip of a GT3, but it's pretty damn close, isn't that fun enough? Even at speed at any rpm, it still has rocket like accelerations, unlike the GT3 which needs to be in high rpm to have that kind of power, isn't that acceleration speed junkie craves?

     

     


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Whoopsy:

    I keep reading people referring to the fun factor in the GT3. 

    A bit off topic, but still related. The most fun car to drive that I ever owned was my (subtly modified) 987 Boxster S. It was not quick in a straight line nor did it rev to 9000... but it felt involving, it connected you to the road and it drove like a go-cart when throwing it through the curves. That for me was fun factor overdose.

    I did also own a 580HP / 800Nm 997 Turbo which was probably quicker'ish than the current 991 Turbo S in a straight line Smiley This was fun too, for a short while. But more from a "holy sh*t" angle than from a driver involvement and driving pleasure. This turbo fun slowly wore off.

    Anyway, this had neither with the new GT3 nor with the new Turbo S to do... just my view on fun factor Smiley


    --

    2014 981 Boxster S | Riviera Blue | PDK | Sport Suspension (-20mm) | PCCB | PTV | PSE
    2010 997.2 C2S | Carrara White | Manual | S-PASM (-20mm) | PSE | OZ Superforgiata
    2010 Audi S5 cabrio | Ibis White

    Previous
    2008 997.1 C4S | Guards Red | Manual | PSE | Bilstein PSS10 | H&R Roll Bars | Dension 500
    2007 997.1 Turbo | Meteor Gray | Manual | Bilstein PSS10 | Cargraphic Stage 2 | Dension 500
    2005 987.1 Boxster S | Arctic Silver | Manual | OZ Ultraleggera | H&R Cup Suspension | H&R Roll Bars | Sachs Racing Clutch | Recaro Shells
    2005 997.1 C2S | Atlas Gray | Manual | PSE | Sport Suspension (-20mm)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Porsche 991 GT3 Road Trip: Going Anywhere, Fast...

    Two days and 1200 miles in Britain’s best driver’s car on Britain’s best driving roads. Andrew Frankel goes for a drive. Because he can...

    (4 January 2013)

    We all like driving, otherwise your eyes and my words would not be meeting on this page now.
     
    But how often do you go for a drive? The difference between driving and going for a drive is profound. Given our common passion you have thought we’d all be out there, driving for the sake of driving. But that’s not what happens: every drive is compromised, usually by the destination. The hard facts are that you are here and it is there. These are immovable parameters within which you must work.
     
    What if you woke up one morning and just drove and not just for a few hours but a couple of days? What if driving became not the means, but the end? Where would you go?I thought I knew. We needed a car and as the Porsche 911 GT3 is our current Britain’s Best Driver’s Car champion, that choice was not difficult.
     
    But we also needed a route. This was the delicious bit. To keep it relevant, the only limit to this plan would be the shores of Great Britain. Upon that canvas I could doodle any damn journey I chose, taking in the roads of England, Wales and Scotland over which I’d most enjoyed driving cars during 25 years in this job.
     
    As most journeys tend to, this one started at home. I live in the Wye Valley where if you drive west from London is where the good roads start. Parked outside my shed with my old Peugeot, older Land Rover and ancient Fiat peering down upon it, I fondly imagined startled gasps of French, English and Italian as my blue collar accumulation of antediluvian wreckage beheld the young German nobleman in their midst.
     
    Wingman would be Autocar staff photographer Stuart Price, picked not just for his talent with a camera, but his tolerance of the kind of driving I have in mind. He’s done 200 miles just to get here, so now it’s already lunchtime on day one, and our journey has yet to commence. On the plus side, Stu is lovingly constructing a tuna and Quavers sandwich: if he can stomach that, he has nothing to fear from my driving.
     
    Where to go? I thought about the west country, but few memorable drives have come on those roads, fewer still since a blanket speed limit was draped over Dartmoor. So we go west to objective one at Black Mountain, probably the single most challenging road in Wales.
     
    I’d not say the road from Brynamman to Llangadog is perfectly for the GT3 – its narrowness makes it a more Caterham-friendly facility, but the Porsche still flings itself at the mountain with monumental conviction. There’s no time to relax here: huge boulders line the road that can – and have – ripped entire suspension assemblies off cars conducted by drivers greedy for more than their fair share of apex.
     
    But armed with a precision instrument and taking care only to drive what you can see, it presents an inspiring challenge. Of all the roads for which we are heading, this presents the toughest intellectual challenge. You might not whoop with joy at its conclusion, but that quiet glow is no less satisfying for that.
     
    We fill for the first time in Llandovery and at just 3.30pm, the light is already failing. Photo shoots usually stop around now at this time of year, but this is not a shoot: it’s a drive during which we’re taking some shots to prove we did it. Besides I love driving in the dark: roads you think you know well become strange and new as your journey through the night takes on an altogether more intrepid quality.
     
    So we hammer north, up the wonderful A483 to Beulah and then the B4358 to Newbridge-on-Wye. The A470 from there to Rhayader is fast, but the B4518 from there to Llanidoes and on to Llanbynmair is simply epic. Narrow, quick, full of crests and cambers its surfaces are made variable by the ingredients of both its tarmac and stomach contents of the livestock that frequently passes this way.
     
    I’ve worked out the best configuration for the GT3: shockers on soft, gearbox in sport, exhaust left quiet, all safety nets disengaged. On this road an old GT3 would be a handful: you’d need to be in the right gear and mindful of its desire to understeer. The new car is not like this: both physically and mentally it asks a lot less of its driver, though whether that comes at the price of providing less pleasure in return is one of the questions I’m here to answer. We rejoin the A470, head up to Dolgellau and then turn north again on the A494 to Lake Bala.
     
    Turn left from Bala town itself on the A4212 and you will drive through the best corner in Britain. Not the fastest, or toughest, just the best – an endless, wide open left through which there’s time to load the GT3’s Dunlop Sport Maxx tyres to the limit and then ease on and off the throttle to see how it addresses the road. It adjusts its attitude as if your foot were literally pulling and pushing the nose toward and away from the apex. Clearly beside himself with admiration for my talent, Stu is staring at the stars and propounding a theory of the universe that can only be the product of a brain too long exposed to a diet of tuna and Quavers.
     
    Soon my hidden agenda is revealed. Living in Wales as I do, I know that when it comes to heroically awful Christmas decorations, this country is in a league of one, which is why I have chosen to drive from its south to north coast under cover of night. In Blaenau our efforts are rewarded by a single dwelling whose illuminations are almost certainly visible from space, let from the A470.
     
    I’d like to stay but time is pressing and Snowdonia is waiting. At Betws-y-coed we turn left to Capel Curig and left again onto the A4086 and over the magnificent Llanberis Pass. In most cars you tend to adopt higher gears as confidence builds, but not this one: because the engine is so mighty between 5000-7000rpm, you need to teach yourself to use all 9000rpm that this extraordinary motor provides. My only complaint is the choice of ratios. First and second are two low, with too long a gap to third. Fourth, fifth and sixth are too high, especially since 7th is geared low enough to ensure maximum speed occurs at peak power.
     
    At Bangor we take the A55 east, stopping only in Llandudno when Stuart’s lustings for an irradiated steak and kidney pudding become insatiable; but in Rhyl we need more fuel. This tank is far too small for this kind of work. It’s past 10.00pm now but I have neither the time nor inclination to stop. The radio insists we’re heading into the worst weather the north of England and Scotland have seen in years, but I figure if we don’t sleep until Glasgow 280 miles away, by the time we wake up, it will have passed. I say ‘we’ - Stu announces he’s going to have to have a snooze, shuts his eyes and wakes up four hours later in Scotland.
     
    In the meantime I’ve taken the A55, M53 and M56 to the M6 north and crossed the Lake District in the dead of night. In fact despite the beauty of the scenery, the actual driving to be done past Windermere and up past Ullswater pales beside what we’ve seen in Wales. From Penrith to Carlisle then through the borders I take the line of least resistance until lured by the Holiday Inn Express in Hamilton at 2.00am.
     
    Four hours later we emerge to find Glasgow apparently under water. For tyres with the word ‘race’ written on their sidewalls, the Dunlops are remarkably good in these conditions and despite wind speeds of 70mph or more, the low, wide GT3 barely notices the gusts. Somewhere up a nearby mountain, one hits 140mph. Every few miles we find some van, lorry or other vehicle that’s been blown onto its side and each time I have to remind myself how it got that way.
     
    By Loch Lomond the worst of the weather has gone, but it has left behind a trail of destruction that has felled thousands of trees, cut electricity to entire communities and caused at least one fatality. We try the west shore but are turned around before Tarbet; the east is no better so we end up on the coast in Helensburgh where the route north is also blocked. The plan had always been to get to Fort William then turn up the A82 to Port Augustus on one of the most beautiful roads in Europe. I’d even fondly entertained hopes of getting to Ullapool because it is where I’d live if all I ever had to do in life was drive.
     
    But the weather has other plans. Faced with spending the rest of this feature providing you with an in depth analysis of a GT3 motor’s idling strategy or heading south once more, we exercise the only option we have. We fuel up – again – and turn around.
     
    Quantum mechanics, string theory and what really goes on at Pine Gap in Australia are just some of the wide and diverse range of topics postulated by my valiant and now entirely refreshed co-driver as we head back over the border. We are fortunate in this currently United Kingdom that despite its population density you can drive such a great distance, hit a dead end and still have so many other outstanding roads on which to play. I am fortunate to have such an original thinker by my side.
     
    My target is clear: the moorland of North Yorkshire is accessible by taking the A66 East from Penrith to Scotch Corner. From there we should head south on the A1 but I’m bored so instead thread my way freehand across to the A19, then up the A172 to Stokesley and across to Castleton. Here commences my favourite single road certainly in England and probably Great Britain.
     
    The route south across Castleton Ridge and Blakey Ridge to Kirkbymoorside is even more of a challenge for a car than its driver. What’s needed here is body control: an ability to maintain ride height whatever the road throws at you. The approaches are slushy and slippery and the light is fading again, but once on top of the moor, the GT3 is in the environment for which it was born.
     
    I’ve driven McLarens, Ferraris and, most recently, a Mercedes SLS Black Series across this road, but I’ve never known it devoured like this. The impregnable poise, whip-crack gear shifts and bewildering grip are enough to reduce even Stu to awe-struck silence. More fuel is taken in Kirkbymoorside as night descends again. But we’re not done yet. Not quite at least.
     
    It’s dark as we hit the A1, M18 and M1 south but at Chesterfield we veer to the right and head out across the Pennines again, into the Peak District, the last great wilderness of our trip. We overnight in Buxton. With its proud claim to be England’s highest market town it seems fitting that it’s here that Stuart introduces me to the dubious delights of combining England’s two favourite foods. However bad curry and chips sounds, it tastes worse.
     
    Waking up at dawn it hits me. My insides have spent most of the night wrestling Buxton’s finest Balti into some semblance of submission, but for the first time on the trip, I am truly tired. There’s a thin veil of snow on the roof the GT3 and for just a moment I’m ashamed to say I’d have chosen my bed over its thin, black carbon fibre bucket.
     
    One crank of the motor blows such unworthy thoughts to dust. It turns out the GT3 is one of those rare sports cars you don’t have to drive fast to enjoy. It’s a special car just to be with, even if you just drive it slowly through the morning commute.
     
    Or over the Cat & Fiddle pass to Macclesfield. Even in dry weather this is reputedly Britain’s most dangerous road, but in ice and slush and snow, in a GT3 on summer tyres, it is lethal. One substantial slither, too far and fast for the ESP to catch, is enough to make me take the shortest route possible to lower ground and head for home. When we get back, the trip says we’d done a little over 1200 miles in a little less than 25 hours driving.
     
    Not much is it? An average of just 50mph. I once covered almost double that distance in 24 hours in a 90bhp Ford Mondeo. But it is enough: enough to confirm the greatness of the GT3 and its worthiness as the next in a long and illustrious line. Is it more fun than the car it replaces? Probably not; but if like me you believe a car’s enjoyment is defined by how much fun it is to drive multiplied by how often you feel inclined to drive it, over a lifetime it would be the more satisfying car to own.
     
    More importantly, those 1200 miles showed that most people who live on this land mass are never actually that far from truly great driving roads. Overpopulated though this island is, for the length, breadth, quality and sheer accessibility of its best roads, if all you want to do is drive, this is still one of the best places on earth to do it.

    Porsche 991 GT3 Road Trip: Going Anywhere, Fast -- Autocar Link

    ...all due credit to Andrew Frankel at Autocar and Porsche!

    Smiley SmileySmiley


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Whoopsy:

    I keep reading people referring to the fun factor in the GT3. Are they just repeating journalists' quotes about fun? Or are they having fun in their GT3?

    What is fun?

    Is enjoying the 9000rpm song fun? Or the bumpier ride fun? Or the fact that it's rear wheel drive only so it's perceived to be easier to slide the tail out fun?

    The Turbo S has space shuttle launch type acceleration G-forces, isn't that fun? It may not have the absolute cornering grip of a GT3, but it's pretty damn close, isn't that fun enough? Even at speed at any rpm, it still has rocket like accelerations, unlike the GT3 which needs to be in high rpm to have that kind of power, isn't that acceleration speed junkie craves?

     

    This will be a long post - you are warned…….

    Whoopsy - I believe we (as individuals) have seen our definition of "fun" evolve somewhat over the years (I'm now in my 50's but don't tell anyone).  What seems to be good one year may not fit the bill the next. My taste in cars and motorcycles (for instance) has changed/expanded over the years.

    Some must have the latest and greatest, others need to have the fastest, while others may enjoy a vehicle's sound/feel/styling/presence/comfort, etc.  Some can afford to have several cars with different attributes. It's all good!!

    RC - SA may be your automotive bible - that's OK. But it just doesn't work for me - sorry. Do they test RWHP, standing 1/4 mile or standing km? I'm not that familiar with their tests (plus I don't speak German). IMO, time to distance is the way to go. I've mentioned this before. A car can be faster thru the 1/4 mile or standing km but have slower trap speeds. You also seem to focus a lot on 0-300 but not on top speed? Why stop at 300kmh and not look at top speed? I don't get it?  Yes, I can see you racing someone from 80 or 100kmh thru to top speed on the Autobahn. But to actually stop first and do 0-300kmh, and not run the whole distance or up to top speed?  Do you guys do this at night like they do here (illegally of course)? 

    Tested track times are fun to read and provide a good indication of a vehicle's potential. But I just can't use SA's findings as my only source. I know they have a great reputation but IMO there are just too many variables involved. Sure, if a car's performance is vastly different than promised (by the manufacturer) it will raise red flags, but a few seconds (especially on the RING) make NO difference to me. Anyway, the driver makes the greatest difference IMO, so a few seconds doesn't mean much after all. As you've correctly mentioned many times, some cars are more difficult to drive for us mortals anyway. Best to take some driving course before focusing too much on these magazine times IMO.  Given you are a retired professional driver, I'm amazed how important this stuff is to you? - since you can probably beat anyone in your new Boxster anyway - I'm being serious here.

    Your comment about the 997tt chassis being inadequate (or something like that) made me giggle. I thought the car was glued to the road!! Just shows how inadequate most of us are anyway. LOL 

    You criticized the Italian magazines, but both Auto and Automobilismo had similar results for the TTS - which you never responded to? Yes, the TTS vs GT3 test was suspiciously close. But, I really can't see the TTS doing 10.4 1/4 miles at 220kmh. Or reaching 270kmh in a standing KM. Even the CGT didn't achieve these performance levels? However, the TTS is VERY fast. Perhaps the German models have a longer over boost calibration due to your Autobahn? Who knows, but 0-200kmh in 9.6 also seems to be a "stretch". There is something suspicious about its 0-300kmh time of around 30s as well, IMO. Isn't this what the CGT achieved? How can this be? I'll focus more on Porsche's figures (perhaps I'm naive), but IMO they have always been fairly honest.

    Getting on topic, IMO the new GT3 is a great car. It appears to be faster in a straight line vs the old GT3/RS and even the 4.0 - excluding perhaps 0-300kmh times, but its top speed is about 5kmh faster anyway. It's even faster than the 997tt in the 1/4 mile and perhaps even the standing km. Porsche's official track times also seem better than before. The GT3's power to weight is very close to a tts. Like I said above, unless German tts' have longer over boost calibrations, why would the acceleration figures be grossly different - as you state, based on your tests? That sounds suspicious to me as well? 

    Sure, the future GT3 RS will be even faster, but this IMO is a track focused car - no air conditioning, or radio with fixed seats (I believe). A much more raw vehicle which is meant to be driven on the track - with limited road use, unless you are extremely hard core. 

    IMO, all these cars (tts, GT3/RS) can appeal to the same customer. Some will own both tts and GT3/RS. 

    Bottom line, IMO I don't see why anyone would be at all disappointed in a GT3? Several magazines have picked it as their Car of the Year for good reason. Just don't expect to beat anyone on the track unless you have the proper skills.

    RC - This is my prediction for you. Can't see you buying a GT3 since SA wasn't totally sold on its track performance but I do see a GT3 RS in your future. LOL


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Whoopsy is a retired professional driver and owns a Boxster????cheeky

    I do agree with the rest of your post.kiss


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    nberry:

    Whoopsy is a retired professional driver and owns a Boxster????cheeky

    I do agree with the rest of your post.kiss

    He was addressing RC


    --

    991 GT3 incoming, 964 Turbo 3.6, E36 M3 ltw S54 conversion, bunch of other stuff


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    Those pictures were amazing. but I just can't want to see a GTS, every time I see a GT3 I imagine it without a wing and think it's the best looking 991 ever. 


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    I haven't driven the 991 4WD, but many magazines have declared it as the best Carrera version a d not only in the wet or snow. What do people who have had experience of both, believe?

    I don't sincerely want the RWD archetypal 911 to take second place surprise


    --

    "Form follows function"


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    for me the GT3 is the more interesting car, compared to the turbo S but the unavailability of a rear view camera and of parking sensors make it much less practical than the turbo S. also, in austria (with all the crazy taxes here) a well specced GT3 runs around 200K euro and a well equipped turbo S around 235K euro: not such a big difference as in germany. on both cars i can get around 6% discount.

    when will the turbo S facelift be out?


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    andyFE:

    for me the GT3 is the more interesting car, compared to the turbo S but the unavailability of a rear view camera and of parking sensors make it much less practical than the turbo S. also, in austria (with all the crazy taxes here) a well specced GT3 runs around 200K euro and a well equipped turbo S around 235K euro: not such a big difference as in germany. on both cars i can get around 6% discount.

    when will the turbo S facelift be out?

    The problem with you is always that you love to brag about this and that car but you actually never seem to have driven one of these cars, even if you claim differently. There are already many different users on other (mostly German) car forums who claimed they have driven the Turbo S but actually never did (and proving it was quite simple).

    I don't say you lie but even if you did a couple of km in the Turbo S and then the GT3, it wouldn't be enough. I have driven a couple of hundreds of km in the new GT3 and around 6000 km (my car has now 5600 km) in the Turbo S. Yes, I may be biased because I actually went for a Turbo S but if you read my older posts starting with post number 1 (GT3 and Turbo S threads), you will realize that my predictions were quite true and actually nothing has changed.

    As to getting a GT3 RS: I would get one in a heartbeat if I could afford several fun cars at once. If I could afford a GT3 RS as well (besides my Turbo S), this would mean that I have enough money to stop working and enough money to enjoy life. Yes, then a GT3 RS would make sense because I would love to spend some quality time on the track with some friends, something I cannot afford doing now. Not necessarily because of time (yes, time is money) but because track racing takes a heavy toll on tires and brake pads and because such events, I don't go to the amateur events Smiley, usually cost a lot of money, especially when first class race car drivers are involved. Nothing is for free in life. These events also usually require 2-4 days at a row and since my wife isn't really into this stuff, I would have to leave her alone with the kids, which is impossible since she has a real life job and needs to take care of her own business.

    Bottom line is: The Turbo S is for me just perfect. Like Whoopsie said, people have different preferences when driving and at my age (48), you have seen this, done that and with experience comes wisdom (and caution). The only thing I would like to see from Porsche would have been some sort of Turbo RS. A Turbo S with 100 kg less weight and 600 hp Everything else, incl. AWD and AWS, should still be there. Unfortunately Porsche will rather offer a GT2 RS, which will be a great car but no rear seats, not much comfort and forget about driving it in snow. I think Porsche is missing an opportunity here because I know there is demand for such a car but maybe not high enough to make it happen.

    As to the emotional stuff: The exhaust sound of the Turbo S is almost perfect in my opinion. I just wish the exhaust would be a little bit raunchier when accelerating with less than 50% throttle. Otherwise, I have no complaints. Oh wait, I wish there would be no speed traps along my favorite routes. Smiley


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


    Re: OFFICIAL: New 911 GT3 (991)

    reginos:

    I haven't driven the 991 4WD, but many magazines have declared it as the best Carrera version a d not only in the wet or snow. What do people who have had experience of both, believe?

    I don't sincerely want the RWD archetypal 911 to take second place surprise

    The electric steering has changed the drive feel of these cars a lot and lately, in a very positive way. In the past, you could actually feel the difference between a C2 and a C4 but nowadays, the difference is minimal, thanks to the electric steering software programming. I said it before, the Turbo S steering (which, as far as I remember is similar to the C4S steering setup) is 10% more direct than the GT3 steering. Does anyone believe me? I guess not. Smiley Smiley Btw: According to rumors, Porsche didn't "allow" the GT3 a more direct steering setup because they were afraid that unexperienced customers couldn't handle it. 


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Porsche 991 Turbo S, Porsche Boxster S (981), BMW X3 35d (2013)


     
    Edit

    Forum

    Board Subject Last post Rating Views Replies
    Porsche Sticky The moment I've been waiting for... 10/25/21 12:29 AM
    Pilot
     
     
     
     
     
    492503 1291
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: New Porsche 911 Turbo S (2020) 11/8/21 7:43 PM
    Leawood911
    181149 1154
    Porsche Sticky Welcome to Rennteam: Cars and Coffee... (photos) 11/12/21 10:01 AM
    Boxster Coupe GTS
    71753 383
    Porsche Sticky SUN'S LAST RUN TO WILSON, WY - 991 C2S CAB LIFE, END OF AN ERA (Part II) 11/25/21 6:30 PM
    watt
    67304 686
    Porsche Sticky Porsche Taycan Turbo S - Short Review 11/19/21 6:44 AM
    bluelines
    53275 529
    Porsche Sticky ROAD TEST: New 992 Carrera 4S 3/3/21 10:57 PM
    Wonderbar
    49102 336
    Porsche Sticky Porsche extends the Taycan model range (Taycan 2WD) 2/1/21 12:42 PM
    Leawood911
    13444 29
    Porsche Sticky OFFICIAL: Cayman GT4 RS (2021) 11/18/21 3:28 PM
    RCA
    529 0
    Porsche Cayman GT4 10/5/21 7:04 PM
    Topspeed
    474168 3587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 GT2 RS (2017) 9/28/21 3:25 AM
    WhoopsyM
    390046 3507
    McLaren McLaren on a winning streak 11/25/21 12:31 AM
    WhoopsyM
    386227 3949
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 991.2 GT3 RS (2018) 11/17/21 5:18 PM
    Rossi
    351721 3256
    Porsche OFFICIAL: 911 R (2016) 10/8/21 11:41 AM
    xpto
    321091 2647
    Porsche 992 GT3 12/1/21 8:05 AM
    throt
    278521 3125
    Porsche OFFICIAL: The new Porsche 992 – a design icon and high-tech sports car 9/29/21 1:59 AM
    watt
    254854 1587
    Porsche OFFICIAL: New Panamera (2016) 2/11/21 9:22 AM
    Itsme
    169376 1379
    Lambo Lamborghini Huracan and variants 4/9/21 4:32 PM
    Topspeed
    120090 1225
    Porsche Donor vehicle for Singer Vehicle Design 9/22/21 1:28 AM
    Leawood911
    104512 749
    Porsche Welcome to the new Taycan Forum! 10/9/21 1:11 PM
    CGX car nut
    95451 1231
    McLaren F1 7/10/21 7:43 AM
    BiTurbo
    83328 209
    Lambo Aventador and SV 8/27/21 2:33 PM
    Topspeed
    74266 698
    AMG AMG GT R 7/8/21 3:07 PM
    CGX car nut
    74211 824
    Others Tesla 2 the new thread 11/30/21 2:32 PM
    RCA
    53940 1398
    Others Bugatti Chiron 11/4/21 5:58 AM
    WhoopsyM
    44112 500
    Ferrari Ferrari 812 Superfast 11/10/21 2:32 PM
    Topspeed
    41154 532
    Porsche Olive 991.2 GT3 Clubsport 1/1/21 7:58 PM
    throt
    39937 615
    Porsche GT4RS 11/28/21 2:38 PM
    bluelines
    38161 710
    Motor Sp. [2021] Formula 1 12/1/21 11:22 AM
    kudryavchik
    33295 1074
    BMW M BMW M2 Rumors 7/7/21 8:38 PM
    Jim_in_Iowa
    31190 394
    Ferrari 488 Replacement 4/17/21 8:28 PM
    Rossi
    28008 370
    252 items found, displaying 1 to 30.