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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:

    Highlight of the race weekend, it's not Max winning the WDC, it's not Ocon's great defence from Hamilton, nor was it Vettel vs Alonso, or Leclerc over cooked it in the last chicane.

    It is Mick Schumacher leading a GP!!!

    For the shortest moment, he was P1 across the line before Verstappen swiftly passed him. 

     

    3ml1yd3ijqs91.png


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:
    But unfortunately the race is considered finished even with only running 28 laps as the checkered flag waved. The rule says those points schedule columns only applied if a race is 'suspended'

     

    This was the unclear part. Thanks .

    So confusing these rules .


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    As expected and widely reported, it is Red Bull and Aston Martin that ran foul of the cost cap regulations.

    https://www.planetf1.com/news/fia-red-bull-guilty-minor-overspend/

    In Aston Martin's case, it was a procedural breach and not a spending breach, similar to Williams earlier. But for Red Bull, it was both procedural and spending. But it is considered a minor spending breach. Guess they thought they could send all the extra spending over to the powertrain division but not quite able to. 

    Will be very interesting to get Horner on the mic to explain himself about all the posturing he did last week.

    Let's see how much backbone the FIA has in levying the proper penalties. This will be the litmus test for the new rules. If they go easy on Red Bull, that means in the future Ferrari and Mercedes can spend that much more over the cap knowing full well Red Bull has set a precedent for ruling. Basically turning the cost cap rule into a toothless tiger. 

    Now if they stand firm and come down hard on Red Bull to set an example, say docking constructor points, driver points, cutting testing time and also cutting the spending cap, all the new Netflix Max fans will cry foul and runs amok on discussion forums and such. It will also embarrassing their new golden goose who happens to just clinched his 2nd title, which could very well be his first if things unfolds not favourably. 

    Now it wouldn't be fair to Max if he losses his first from last year, but then again he didn't quite claimed it cleanly without some outside help that breached the rules, in the end it would just be a wash. But I suspect the FIA won't touch the drivers' points and only dock enough points from Red Bull last year for them to stay in 2nd place in the Constructor standing, so token amount of testing time will be cut, and some form of fine levied which will be a drop int he bucket for Red Bull. it won't be as severe as the McLaren spy gate for sure. 

    FIA is back to between a rock and a hard place. 


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Conspiracy theorist in me thinks the FIA may have delayed the press release on cap hoping Max clinched his "second title".  This way if they come down hard on 2021, he is still a "World Champion".  Red Bull looses testing time and cap going forward.  And it sets up story lines for both sides going into next season.  Netflix would love that!


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    The penalty  for Hamilton's 0.2mm rear wing was  disqualification .  Let's see......


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Probably the overage was caused by the repairs necessary after the Silverstone incident.  


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    CGX car nut:

    Probably the overage was caused by the repairs necessary after the Silverstone incident.  

     

    Only Silverstone? And Hungary repairs are free then? All teams budgeted in damage $$, if one spend more on damage repairs, then one can't spend more on development. The damage argument doesn't hold any water.

    Last year engine development wasn't capped, and powertrain development can have it's own wind tunnel time and floor development for 'packaging' reasons. Red Bull likely spent a lot of time doing that and tried to chalked them all up to the powertrain side, hence the delay as they filed the paper work late. That would be the 'procedural infraction'. But even that didn't covered everything hence the spending infraction also.

    Could be very plain and simple, they cheated and got caught. They could have save themselves a lot of headaches and embarrassment had they gone to the FIA and consult to see if they is legal or is that illegal, like how Mercedes did it with all their clever bits. 

    Rules can be interpret differently depending on point of views, it would seems Red Bull and FIA had differences, they had all the chances to ask for clarifications but they didn't. That could be the reason why Horner was so loud in proclaiming they are in compliance to start off with. 

    Ferrari tried to cheat too and got caught. Got a mysterious punishment also. 

    Also strange that Mercedes has been very silent throughout the whole thing, while the press and the internet are calling for Toto's head also for some reason, he only ever said something about it when asked by a reporter. Ferrari on the other hand is acting very different, Binotto is calling for an absolute and harsh punishment. One can also safely assume if it was Mercedes or Ferrari are the one over the cap, Horner will be harping about it 24/7 to anyone and everyone.

     

     

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    https://frontofficesports.com/newsletter/fos-pm-mercedes-f1-cost-cap-win/


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    Mike

    918 Spyder + 992 GT3 Touring + Taycan Turbo + Tesla Roadster 1.5 & Model S P100D AP2 + BMWs (Z8 + 3.0 CSi) + Bentley Arnage T


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Gnil:

    The penalty  for Hamilton's 0.2mm rear wing was  disqualification .  Let's see......

     

    That was a technical infraction, black and white. Not unlike Red Bull's flexy wing which got stiffened up very quickly after a directive.

    Cost cap is a sporting violation. Much more grey area to play with with the wording of the rules. It was never stated concretely all the punishment category has to be applied together, could be one of them or all of them or any combination of them. 

    Ferrari would be hoping for a very very harsh one so they can move up to 2nd place in the Constructor. Mercedes won that so they have no money in the pot, won't affect them. While deducting driver points is on the cards, FIA would much prefer not to apply that, especially when it's is only a minor and not a major, as even docking 10 points off the driver standing would change the WDC winner. I mean if they do that, they would 'silently' fixed what Masi messed up to start off with................

    But what is a fitting punishment? That's what they are debating. 10 points off? 50 points off? 100 points off? Those are all 'relatively' minor punishment as oppose to say exclusion, which would only happen for a major breach. Red Bull has almost 600 points last year, over 270 points clear of 3rd place Ferrari, would deducting 300 points still a 'minor' penalty? Even this year Red Bull still has like a 170 points lead over Ferrari. 

    Doesn't matter how hard and loud Ferrari is gonna shout, they aren't getting 2nd place for 2021. 

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Ah, one last thing about the punishment.

    FIA, has the option of offering an ABA, Accepted Breach Agreement. Which means the team accept responsibility and won't challenge the findings. Points penalty will be off the table and no reduction in future cap.

    With Red Bull's press release saying they still believe they are in the right, so that offer should be off the table now. Leaving the door open for points deduction and reduction in cap and the full suits of punishments. 

    As for Aston and Williams, they will very likely agree to the ABA, taking a public reprimand on the chin and move on. Maybe also missing a practice session or two. And/or some limitation on testing. 

    Fun times.

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    W8MM:

    https://frontofficesports.com/newsletter/fos-pm-mercedes-f1-cost-cap-win/

    Yup, cost caps are huge for owners in sports… that’s why they are now harping about including caps for drivers salaries. 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Well, I think they need a penalty that is harsh so teams don’t “tactically foul.”  To that end, they need a penalty that impacts the year of infraction and also  removes any knock on benefits in following years so we don’t have a situation like the engine penalties use to be where the teams tank one race and stuff three engines in.  Otherwise what’s for stop Mercedes from jamming in a bunch of upgrades now  and research for next year now to help them next year?


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    For one engine developments are frozen till 2026, if Mercedes were to do that they missed the boat already. They can do 'reliability updates' but those aren't giving as much performance as actual performance upgrades. Think last time an engine manufacturer got a good jump on performance from 'reliability update' was Red Bull when they change the engine oil formula.

    Ferrari and Honda/Red Bull made quite a big gain on engine output before the freeze, they have left the Mercedes engine behind. Alpine also made gains and arguably, they are like neck and neck with the Mercedes engine if not ahead.

    Only hope for Mercedes to catch up is chassis development and aero. Mercedes will benefit from extra testing afford by them finishing 3rd instead of 1st. 

    The 2022 season is almost over, Red Bull's 2023 car should be down the home stretch already. Even testing penalty won't affect Red Bull's 2023 car much. 2024 however will be a different story.

    The 2022 Red Bull is one of the most dominating car ever, it is basically fastest on a straight line, It doesn't give up much, if at all, in the corners, and it is also the gentlest on tires. 2022 Ferrari car has fast one lap pace, very fast, but it works the tires too much to achieve that, so that pace just can't last. There was a picture floating on the internet somewhere, comparing Verstappen's tires with Leclerc's. Leclerc's tire are basically bald already at the end of the race, while Verstappen's tires looks only slightly worn with full tread left. Ferrari, while seems 'close' on paper, in reality they aren't, they are quite far behind Red Bull. 

     

     

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    I was using the engine example from 2020 rules where teams would take multiple penalties in one race to stockpile engines for use later in the season, this was outlawed.  FIA needs to prevent the same tactical fouling of cost cap in one season to benefit future seasons.

    I think the power discrepancy between engines is over blown, Honda and Ferrari did eliminate gap but I believe most experts like Craig Scarborough say the top speed differences has more to do with aero strategy than horsepower.   RedBull and Ferrari are producing less draggy downforce.   This is further evidenced by Aston being near top of speed traps in many tracks and they run the same powerplant.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    It's more than the 'top speed' in speed traps. It's more about how it get there. Like from corner exit out. Top speed will be affected by drag, but the initial acceleration is all engine power. Or, 'drivability' in drivability speak. 

    Bottas has already gone on record about the Ferrari engine being more drivable than his old Mercedes engine.

    Aston has focus on 'top speed', but they are almost always around the slowest around corners. They trade corner grip with top speed in order to not be passed on the straights. It has also been widely accepted that the Mercedes chassis has a lot of drag despite the spaceship look, for a given power level, the Mercedes will go slower than most. 

    Between Red Bull and Ferrari, there are numerous on-boards that shows Leclerc might be right there entering a corner behind Verstappen, but Verstappen simply gained more in the corner and basically disappeared at the exits, Leclerc doesn't quite get back to the tail again at the end of the straights before braking. 

    One way to explain that is that the Ferrari makes more ultimate power, but the Honda power plant in the Red Bull has more 'area under the curve'. Not a new concept, Porsche had been doing that during their 919 days, big power down low to exit the corner faster, and make the other guy playing catching for the whole straight. 918 follows the same principle, P1 and LaFerrari has higher ultimate power and faster terminal velocity, but those extra speed are playing catch up for the whole straight simply because those other cars are slower out of exits. For racing purposes, area under the curve rules. 

    The old Mercedes engine, from 2014, has higher ultimate power, but they also make more power all throughout the whole curve. It's just simply a much more powerful engine. The current Honda engine, maybe some would argue it isn't make meaningfully more power at the very top, but it makes more throughout for the whole curve. 

    Maybe I can't be bothered with having my own Youtube channel, or a internet website discussing stuff, or being asked to be a commentator, I don't quite believe I know less on certain subjects. The basic physics on how a car goes doesn't change, and I know science. 


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Good points on area under the curve and power deployment. Smiley


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Really belongs in Oregon

    44389158_1060716047441662_8936566919830437888_n.jpeg


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    It would seems that Red Bull owner, Dietrich Mateschiz, had quietly passed away, in recent days.

    News hasn't been released yet but I guess they are just waiting on the right time to do it. Perhaps after Austin GP.

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Sad to hear.


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Looks like RB have agreed to an ABA.  Funny to see Horner try to pull the classic gaslighting move of playing the victim when his team is the one who breached the rules.  “But think of the children!”   


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    FftqxqxWIAAg3fE.png


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    au Mexique

    View-of-the-Mexican-Grand-Prix-circuit-planetF1-700x367.jpeg


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Checo Pérez needs to step his game for his home race. 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    I went to the race in Austin, fantastic experience, I can highly recommend it. We were at Turn 4, it was great though there are other great turns as well. Great to see Mario Andretti at 82 years old driving the McLaren MP4/28, what a sound these older cars make. Race was very exciting to see live, last one was Montreal 2001, to see MSC in the V10.

    Any recommendations for Mexico GP, what seats are great, might want to go next year.

    Thanks

    AJ


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Ff_RlruWAAAdQSd.jpeg


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Didn't watch the UPGP at all, only saw some highlights.

    Boy the FIA didn't do themselves any favour again. Alpine protest Haas' protest? and Stewards missed the mark on handing out black and orange to Perez and Alonso? 

    Inconsistent ruling between the 2 race directors, each time Haas got the black and orange was by the same RD, while this race weekend the other was on duty.

    Red Bull and Mercedes back at it? 

    Russell the new Maldonado? 

    Stroll being the idiot again? At least this time Alonso isn't a teammate yet. Imagine him doing it to Alonso next year when he is a teammate, daddy won't be happy!

    Audi and Sauber finalized.

    Porsche moving onto Williams. 

    And they still have to rule on Red Bull's cheating. There is no win there. Imagine they go light on Red Bull and then next year Ferrari and Mercedes is gonna have a party spending extra, knowing there is a slap on the hand punishment precedent being set this year. Cost cap is just gonna be a joke. And if they go heavy to set an example to Ferrari and Mercedes, they gonna hear Horner whine non stop till the next century. What attract Audi and Porsche to join is a hard cost cap, if it became a 'flexible' one then they might pull out and leave a hole for Formula 1. Or they can go full nuclear and start spending together with Mercedes, Ferrari and Red Bull, they are the richest company so would have no problem writing checks until others can't keep up. No win there again. 

    K-Mag go banzai into the scene of an incident, he could have hit a lot of things; while his teammate did the smart thing and backed off for safety.

    Red Bull is like 30-40km/hr faster than Mercedes on the straights? Wow!!! That rocket power level Honda engine combined with Newey's trick aero is really on another level. 

    Ferrari is still a 3/4 race length team, they really need to work on their tire wear issue. 

     

     

     


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    You forgot to mention that Red Bull seemed to have hired a former Ferrari mechanic with the time-consuming MV pitstop. 


    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    That was just another psychological tactics Horner uses, make others think they might have a chance in winning.


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    Re: [2022] Formula 1

    Whoopsy:

    That was just another psychological tactics Horner uses, make others think they might have a chance in winning.

    Smiley


     
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