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    EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Background: European carmakers will miss the (legally non binding) agreement of a 140g/km Co2 emission target as of 2008. Actual average is 161g/km, but especially German carmakers with their performance oriented cars are way above the target (50% of the total fleet affected).

    EU bureaucrats with their attitude to "save the world" plan to increase pressure on carmakers by setting even tougher standards (120g/km) and by making these targets legally binding. Porsche may only achieve the target for their fleet by acquiring VW
    In addition a gas-guzzler tax of up to 3,000 Euro per year is planned
    Most frightening is the idea to ban all cars with Co2 emissions exceeding 200g/km as of 2015 (mind you a mere 2.7 Boxster generates 222g/km). Under such a horror scenario PAG would completely withdraw from the EU market according to the linked Austrian article.

    Of course I can't see that the above sketched horror scenario will turn into reality completely, because the impact on the economy would be disastrous (forcing carmakers and their suppliers to lay off millions of employees - especially in Germany) BUT I have no doubt that
    it will become much tougher for the carmakers in the near future. BTW a lot of German cities are planning a ban for all cars not matching the latest emission rules also.

    I wonder whether it will be fun yet (or even possible) to own a sportscar in ten years from now


    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6257327.stm
    http://www.orf.at/070113-8057/index.html

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    In certain European countries I don't see how you can further squeeze the CO2 on cars (beyond technologies which bring year on year improvements). In France I see the vast majority of engines are either small diesels (1.6 to 2.2) or tiny petrols (1.0 to 1.8) and engines above 2.0L are already 'luxury' and 'rare'. So basically, once again let's shoot ourselves in the foot...As if Europe alone can change anything....

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers


    I suspect because Porsche is a "small" car maker, they won't have to comply with that rule. On the other hand, I don't see the other usual suspects being able to avoid it.

    May be this Forum will turn into The Smart Brabus forum !!!! and we will share old pictures of "not politically" correct gaz guzzlers that we won't be able to drive any longer...

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Smart Brabus forum, good one :-)
    We will be arguing whether it can do the ring faster than the Dacia Logan with Michelin Cup tyres :-) (still above 11 minutes...)

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    LoL - we should have a good laugh at least for now
    maybe in a couple of years this smilie: will be more popular. IMO there will be no Porsche ban, but I'm afraid the politicians will abuse the oecologist's arguments to torture us with a gaz guzzler tax

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    The EU really IS trying to bring our economies down, isn't it? If the US and other developing countries (China, India) did the same as the EU did, things would have been a lot better. Why we have to clean up after everyone else is beyond me. Not to mention that it would be much easier to swallow if we could actually make a difference - 460 million people versus close to 3 billion in China, India and North America - and then we also have Russia and Africa and so on and so forth...

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    The argument on population is even more striking where you live in a 7 million people country like Switzerland, and where despite the great railway infrastructure, you NEED a car unless you are some ecolo-integrist living and working in the center of Zurich (being the only BIG city in this country)...Apparently there are some walls surrounding the country which prevent CO2 and other gazes to cross the borders...
    GRRRRRRRRRRR

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Why are you guys worrying? The only country that takes any note of EU legislation is the UK where ALL EU legislation is applied in FULL and at the earliest adoption date. We have some of the dumbest politicians in the world here It is yet another masterstroke of genius by Herr Piech and Herr Wiedeking who will no doubt lobby for, and get, an 11th hour reprieve after spending very little themselves (other than on top flight lobbyists). Meanwhile Jaguar and Aston Martin will try to comply and thus be forced out of business by exorbitant R&D costs.

    Seriously though, I will never forget visiting a competitors site in Germany and marvelling at the lack of health and safety equipment in use (in the UK we have to go everywhere in high visibility fluorescent waistcoats in case we don't spot each other!). When I asked my German host how things were so different he casually remarked that EU legislation is deliberately written in English so that the impact can be lost in translation to another language which I thought was an amusing way of looking at it but most likely he had hit the nail on the head

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Why are you guys worrying? The only country that takes any note of EU legislation is the UK where ALL EU legislation is applied in FULL and at the earliest adoption date. We have some of the dumbest politicians in the world here It is yet another masterstroke of genius by Herr Piech and Herr Wiedeking who will no doubt lobby for, and get, an 11th hour reprieve after spending very little themselves (other than on top flight lobbyists). Meanwhile Jaguar and Aston Martin will try to comply and thus be forced out of business by exorbitant R&D costs.

    Seriously though, I will never forget visiting a competitors site in Germany and marvelling at the lack of health and safety equipment in use (in the UK we have to go everywhere in high visibility fluorescent waistcoats in case we don't spot each other!). When I asked my German host how things were so different he casually remarked that EU legislation is deliberately written in English so that the impact can be lost in translation to another language which I thought was an amusing way of looking at it but most likely he had hit the nail on the head



    To be honest, I think it is very much in Anglo Saxon mentality to sometimes overdo it as far as health and safety are concerned. Not only for the end consumer with stupid disclaimers on products, but also in production environment where each device, door, button, gate, plug, etc has a warning sign AND/OR text above it. You do not see these elsewhere - even for factories from the SAME global company in two different countries....

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Here you can see the more "ecological" car makers

    http://www.quattroruote.it/news/articolo.cfm?codice=62981&pagina=70599&canaleuscita=-1

    ...it's interesting to see that the ones that don't produce suvs are on the top .... so i guess german car makers just have to stop prodution SUVs

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    rosso nuvola said:
    Here you can see the more "ecological" car makers





    FIAT rules Thanks for posting the link-interesting synopsis. BTW Porsche's average is 300g/km

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    This type of legislation is highly likely to produce the type of results it did in the past ..... ie create insanity ....

    Many years back in Italy there was an outrageous tax on cars over 2000cc. At that time, Ferrari was selling special models for their domestic market that were "crappy" 4 cylinders 2.0l Turbo charged engines ...

    So may be our favourite brand will sell the 999 with a 1.8L helped by 4 Turbos ... 1 per cylinder ... with a noise very similar to a lawnmower

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Why are you guys worrying? The only country that takes any note of EU legislation is the UK where ALL EU legislation is applied in FULL and at the earliest adoption date. We have some of the dumbest politicians in the world here It is yet another masterstroke of genius by Herr Piech and Herr Wiedeking who will no doubt lobby for, and get, an 11th hour reprieve after spending very little themselves (other than on top flight lobbyists). Meanwhile Jaguar and Aston Martin will try to comply and thus be forced out of business by exorbitant R&D costs.

    Seriously though, I will never forget visiting a competitors site in Germany and marvelling at the lack of health and safety equipment in use (in the UK we have to go everywhere in high visibility fluorescent waistcoats in case we don't spot each other!). When I asked my German host how things were so different he casually remarked that EU legislation is deliberately written in English so that the impact can be lost in translation to another language which I thought was an amusing way of looking at it but most likely he had hit the nail on the head



    Spot on! We implement every rule on time and our EU neighbours bend them every which way they can. I think that's why the UK public is so eurosceptic.

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    Jeannot said:

    To be honest, I think it is very much in Anglo Saxon mentality to sometimes overdo it as far as health and safety are concerned. Not only for the end consumer with stupid disclaimers on products, but also in production environment where each device, door, button, gate, plug, etc has a warning sign AND/OR text above it. You do not see these elsewhere - even for factories from the SAME global company in two different countries....



    It's all because of the laws on negligence (causing personal injury) in all Anglo-Saxon legal systems. Hence all the warnings etc etc...

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Would this legislation turn out in reality that way, buyers of cars emitting more c02 than the legal must be able to simply buy some carbon offsets on the market as the manufacturers do today to stay within the legal limit. Anything else would be hypocritical from the legislators.

    K

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Thanks Porsche-Jeck for making us aware of the fact that we may only have 8 more years to enjoy our cars Just kidding.

    But seriously, what the f*ck's going on in the world? There's a flood of environmental campaigns that are changing our lives whether we want them to or not.

    As for the possible 2015 ban, I don't honestly think this plan by the environmental lobby stands any chance of succeeding. Why? Oh, not because of the insane effect it would have on unemployment or the economies of the various EU member states...no, it's because the EU bureaucrats in the European Commission wouldn't be able to enjoy their chauffeur-driven S Class limousines!

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    it's because the EU bureaucrats in the European Commission wouldn't be able to enjoy their chauffeur-driven S Class limousines!



    Don't worry - they'll get a special permit (they need heavy bullet-proof cars to be protected against the people...ehem terrorists I mean)

    Of course this crazy plan stands no chance against national interests and against the car industry's lobby, but the attempt alone makes me crazy thinking about the fact that this proposal is coming from the same bureaucrats who are maintaining an insane agriculture subvention system providing financial incentives for transporting cattle or milk all over the continent - very environment friendly

    If you'd see all those crappy trucks from the eastern European countries on the German Autobahn on a normal weekday you won't believe it Drivers are almost sleeping, if they don't just watch TV , the trucks are sliding all over the place on slicks, brakes working by chance only etc. pp.

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    If you'd see all those crappy trucks from the eastern European countries on the German Autobahn on a normal weekday you won't believe it Drivers are almost sleeping, if they don't just watch TV , the trucks are sliding all over the place on slicks, brakes working by chance only etc. pp.



    The UK truck driver is deemed a Proffesional driver ...There also meant to be very physically fit , lol , there always eating dog rolls and burgers , purchased from one of those super clean chuck-up wagons . And you will not find Evian water sitting on the dash , its strictly Coke and the full sugar jobby at that ...

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    Porsche-Jeck said:
    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    it's because the EU bureaucrats in the European Commission wouldn't be able to enjoy their chauffeur-driven S Class limousines!



    Don't worry - they'll get a special permit (they need heavy bullet-proof cars to be protected against the people...ehem terrorists I mean)

    Of course this crazy plan stands no chance against national interests and against the car industry's lobby, but the attempt alone makes me crazy thinking about the fact that this proposal is coming from the same bureaucrats who are maintaining an insane agriculture subvention system providing financial incentives for transporting cattle or milk all over the continent - very environment friendly

    If you'd see all those crappy trucks from the eastern European countries on the German Autobahn on a normal weekday you won't believe it Drivers are almost sleeping, if they don't just watch TV , the trucks are sliding all over the place on slicks, brakes working by chance only etc. pp.



    Ban the trucks, it's that simple. Load them onto trains. We also have many here and it's a disaster. Our truckers are excellent, disciplined and have good hardware, but what good does that do when the Slovaks come in with their deathtraps, then cut you off on highways and just generally act like idiots?

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Spot on! We implement every rule on time and our EU neighbours bend them every which way they can. I think that's why the UK public is so eurosceptic.



    Easy,

    That's what happens when you have a government made up almost exclusively of lawyers These poor chaps need to feather the nest of their own kind you know and keep future generations of law graduates hard at work unravelling the legal minefield they have lain. And it's kept Mrs BLiar busy in the meantime on her human rights crusade

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    How courious.....how courious are grey burocrats imagining ways to develop more and more demagogic and unrisponsible ways to get inmediate votes, and more and more money.....

    It's simply ridicoulous and unacceptable ....every month, in our "liberty european space" we are getting more and more restrictions to "real" liberty....besides the fact we have a "unlimited formal liberty".....

    Of course I could extend my "bla, bla" for long, and with many precise data, but I feel this is not the convinient "place"...

    In any case, we can complain a lot in front these, and many other ridicouluos restrictions......but, only complaimants..nothing else....meanwhile them (Our voted and so ancient-moral-unttachable-wise and -by the way- professional politicians) are perfectly well organized, in particular to give us "high moral" lessons, and, meanwhile, to slice a bit more of our money from "anywhere" if possible...

    .....if not possible, just create a new "rule", and somebody will make a "mistake": he/she will have his/her account brushed....(once again)

    But, please, excuse me, I'm "not politically correct" in the "paradise of the speech and thinking free thinking "

    Just going to the ground, and in our european space, more and more restrictions and taxes are growing and growing: If you defend your family at home towards an agression, you are a criminal, If you pass a ridicoulous speed limit with a 21st century top technology car(and without provoking any dangerous situation): you are a criminal...etc. etc...

    But...when a real criminal is considered, he's a victim of our society, and has "human rigths"...

    But those..., "us", the ones for yers fed up of paying taxes -and nothing having back-, trying to have a "reasonable" existence....

    those who have been hard working in our bornland during decades - maybe continuing the family "style"- We are just supposed to admitt those "wrigths" and shut up....how ridicoulous is limiting the Car's industry achivements....

    Just only another "Brick in the wall"



    We have several options:

    - Continue thinking the same, and shut our mouths (we better extend our daily jogging)

    - Joining seriously together and rise our voices (We are not a few) in a serious org.

    - Moving to other much more "habitable to honest people" countries in this planet (maybe the more realistic option)


    PD: Please excuse me all if this things get me rather ungry

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Troubling indeed!

    What I find astonishing is that politicians are acting as though there is NOT credible, peer reviewed, evidence, from a variety of esteemed sources, which disagree with much of the "popular" theories as to the cause and effect of global climate change.

    Yet they seem to be bent on destroying one of the few industries with which Europe can continue to provide market leadership.

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Quote:
    easy_rider911 said:
    Spot on! We implement every rule on time and our EU neighbours bend them every which way they can. I think that's why the UK public is so eurosceptic.



    Easy,

    That's what happens when you have a government made up almost exclusively of lawyers These poor chaps need to feather the nest of their own kind you know and keep future generations of law graduates hard at work unravelling the legal minefield they have lain. And it's kept Mrs BLiar busy in the meantime on her human rights crusade



    Absolutely right Do people realise how many world leaders were/are lawyers? In recent times only: Clinton, Blair, Milosevic, Thatcher just to name a few...in recent Tory Cabinets: Sir Leon Brittan QC, Geoffrey Howe QC, Lord Young of Grafham, Michael Howard QC, Kenneth Clarke QC and the list goes on. Maybe the world would be a better place if a more representative cross section of society made up the political elites...?? Would we want someone like Lord Owen (a consultant neurologist) in power? I dunno.

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Just read the BBC article. Thank goodness it only applies to "new vehicles" so this tax won't be retroactive/retrospective in effect.

    What puzzles me is this: I thought we didn't have EU wide tax harmonisation yet but having a EU "gaz-guzzler" tax is bringing it in by the back door...by unelected bureaucrats in the European Commission whom we can't vote out of office.

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    I'd like to point out that those unelected bureaucrats were chosen by people you did elect. Vote them out of office instead.

    The Commission is no different than the cabinet: did voters specifically vote for Mr Brown as Chancellor of the Exchequer, or did they vote for Mr Blair as Prime Minister (or maybe the Labour Party as a whole)?
    Of course, Mr Brown was not elected. He was nominated by the (elected) Prime Minister, and confirmed by the (elected) House of Commons.

    Similarly, while Mr Barroso might have not been elected himself, he was nominated by (elected) heads of governments, and confirmed by (elected) Members of the European Parliament.


    I'd wager the sole purpose of the current EU power structure is to let the Commission act as a scapegoat whenever the elected heads of governments have to push through necessary but impopular laws.
    (and then they dare wonder why in those rare occasions they do ask their constituents directly about the EU, they get negative results! ).

    Of course, voters quickly forget that it's the Council of Ministers (i.e. national governments) that holds the real power in Brussels, not the Commission.

    Want to punish politicians who want to take your Porsche from your cold, dead hands? Don't blame Mr Barroso. Blame whichever head of state came up with that retarded idea (most likely a small leftist country, or a country which only manufactures small cars, e.g. France or Italy ). And tell Mr Blair such folly won't be tolerated by his constituents.

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    e.g. France or Italy ).



    Apparently, now that Renault and Peugeot are going to release their own SUVs (well, if Nissan and Mitsubishi made SUV rebranded Peugeot or Renault can be called this way), the French are less in a rush to push for this type of regulations. Surprise !

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Wasn't the city of Paris going to introduce a ban on SAVs/SUVs but this threat has now been lifted following lobbying by Peugeot Citroen in readiness for the launch of the rebranded Mitsubishis they are about to sell?

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    ISUK said:
    Wasn't the city of Paris going to introduce a ban on SAVs/SUVs but this threat has now been lifted following lobbying by Peugeot Citroen in readiness for the launch of the rebranded Mitsubishis they are about to sell?



    This is exactly what I was pointing at

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    Quote:
    The Groom said:
    I'd like to point out that those unelected bureaucrats were chosen by people you did elect. Vote them out of office instead.

    Of course, voters quickly forget that it's the Council of Ministers (i.e. national governments) that holds the real power in Brussels, not the Commission.





    Excellent point I always have to laugh when any national government is complaining that they just have to follow the "orders from Brussles" when transforming EU rules into national law (just like the recent IMO crazy so-called anti-discrimination law) In fact some national governments use the EU just as a Trojan Horse to implement laws they never would dare to bring up in their national parliaments, because they would be severely punished during the next election

    Re: EU Commission plans attack on Sportscar makers

    I am in favour of this laws , don't no if you notice the news on TV , but the cientists predict that 2007 is going to be the most warm year ..ever... and this year is a "el niño" year, things look very bad... and since the US , China and India are doing very litle about that , somebody has to do something.
    In Switzerland in January on a normal year you would have a metter snow , and like -5 temperatures , and this year there is no snow and it looks like spring alraedy

    And dont forget that cars in europe have to be Euro4 but trucks only have to meet euro3.
    There is no danger for the supercars new tecnology is always coming , like direct injection and cammless engines , besides supercars have to much power these days

     
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