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    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    SciFrog:

    They won’t when the Tesla will accelerate and easily smoke the Porsche smiley

     

    That also depends how many stop lights have passed already. The Tesla could as well just go into limp mode after repeated use you know. 

     

    Smiley

    Again, I would love for the $75k Taycan (properly optioned) to be a real thing because it would mean a $80k Macan EV right behind that I would snap in an instant over a Tesla X or Y.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    LOL, no one on Earth believe or expect a property config Porsche is anywhere near the suggested MSRP.

    It's not part of the expectation.

    Fit and finish, quality of material, and performance is the expectation of a Porsche.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    And performance is not about how fast one goes in a straight line, that almost means nothing.

    I was just talking to a buddy of mine predicting whether a Senna will break the track record set by a Cup car this coming summer.

    The Senna will have a huge terminal speed advantage on the 3 long straights, but ultimately it won't be faster.

    Cup car brakes much harder and later, corner faster, and the traction out of corners are also better. That's what counts as performance.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:

    And performance is not about how fast one goes in a straight line, that almost means nothing.

    I was just talking to a buddy of mine predicting whether a Senna will break the track record set by a Cup car this coming summer.

    The Senna will have a huge terminal speed advantage on the 3 long straights, but ultimately it won't be faster.

    Cup car brakes much harder and later, corner faster, and the traction out of corners are also better. That's what counts as performance.

     

    Are you referring to your track? Is the cup car on slicks?


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Panorama recently had a track challenge article comparing a stock  GT2 RS against a GT3 Cup, driven by the same driver on the same day. It was at Road America Raceway, a challenging high speed 4.0 mi. road course.

    GT2 RS   - 2:17.04

    GT3 Cup  - 2:11.98


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Track performance of a road car is completely irrelevant expect maybe for super sporty 2 seaters.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    crayphile:
    Whoopsy:

    And performance is not about how fast one goes in a straight line, that almost means nothing.

    I was just talking to a buddy of mine predicting whether a Senna will break the track record set by a Cup car this coming summer.

    The Senna will have a huge terminal speed advantage on the 3 long straights, but ultimately it won't be faster.

    Cup car brakes much harder and later, corner faster, and the traction out of corners are also better. That's what counts as performance.

     

    Are you referring to your track? Is the cup car on slicks?

     

    Yes, Area 27. And yes, of course the Cup car is on slicks.

    Not directly comparable between a street car and a race car, but someone really wants the Senna to hold the record.

    No slicks for the Senna though, it will be on Trofeo R, the next best thing.


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Interesting article from Autonews today on Volkswagen's enormous bid to convert to EV production.  Major takeaways include Volkswagen reacting to regulator demands versus consumer demand when it has essentially "bet the farm" on EVs to replace conventional automobiles.  If this strategy is even remotely successful, the Group will continue with its industrial dominance.  If it should fail, Volkswagen could, conceivably, become a takeover target itself or be relinquished to minor player status.  

    https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/vw-bets-ranch-radical-shift-evs


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Apologize in advance for the back-to-back postings of Volkswagen's work in EVs on a Tesla-related thread; however, one found a couple of worthwhile articles as posted immediately above, for example.  The second interesting link is to an EV comparison race hosted by famed Norwegian Teslaphile Bjørn Nyland driving a Nissan Leaf versus the perceived compliance EV, the Volkswagen e-Golf.  The results are a bit surprising as the Volkswagen in almost every category is superior to the Leaf.  This test is more real world than the number of drag races where the Tesla Model S P100D+Ludicrous accelerates quicker to 100 km/h than virtually any other production road car.  This race does demonstrate that most EVs still are not a reliable substitute for the old "fossil fueled" car. 

    https://insideevs.com/nissan-leaf-vs-vw-e-golf-winter-road-trip/


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:

    Interesting article from Autonews today on Volkswagen's enormous bid to convert to EV production.  Major takeaways include Volkswagen reacting to regulator demands versus consumer demand when it has essentially "bet the farm" on EVs to replace conventional automobiles.  If this strategy is even remotely successful, the Group will continue with its industrial dominance.  If it should fail, Volkswagen could, conceivably, become a takeover target itself or be relinquished to minor player status.  

    https://www.autonews.com/manufacturing/vw-bets-ranch-radical-shift-evs

    VW Group bets big on EVs, I know but I hope they're not wrong because yes, this could hurt them badly if the strategy doesn't work out for them in the end. I am still very very skeptical.


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Indeed a big big bet. I attended an Analyst briefing last week and learned that Mr Diess (VW CEO) said, that chances are 50:50 that Volkswagen will still be a major player in 10 years. So at least, he seems to be aware of the risk ...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    We will start to see chinese cars . With EV they are fighting nearly at the same level as the europeans . They all have to start with a clean sheet . China is moving rapidly with their EV development .  I bet a good bunch of the cars on our roads will be chinese built in the not so far distant ....


    --

     964 Carrera 4 --  997.2 C2S , -20mm -- 991.2 GT3 RS 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Gnil:

    We will start to see chinese cars . With EV they are fighting nearly at the same level as the europeans . They all have to start with a clean sheet . China is moving rapidly with their EV development .  I bet a good bunch of the cars on our roads will be chinese built in the not so far distant ....

    Especially in the lower priced segments, this could give manufacturers in Europe and maybe even in the US a big blow for their longtime strategies. Smiley


    --

     

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:

    Indeed a big big bet. I attended an Analyst briefing last week and learned that Mr Diess (VW CEO) said, that chances are 50:50 that Volkswagen will still be a major player in 10 years. So at least, he seems to be aware of the risk ...

    Huge risk... One breakthrough in battery technology by a specific car manufacturer and this could throw other manufacturers years behind... Also, the customers are a problem as well. If nobody buys these cars...

    This is why I think that sooner or later, politicians will start to rally against petrol/Diesel cars, there will be incentives to switch and there will be a speed limit in Germany as well sooner or later. Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...

    couldn't agree more. What's weird though - esp in Germany - is that energy from electricity is way more expensive than energy from diesel. We Germans are masters when it comes to taxing taxes Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    schmoell:

    Indeed a big big bet. I attended an Analyst briefing last week and learned that Mr Diess (VW CEO) said, that chances are 50:50 that Volkswagen will still be a major player in 10 years. So at least, he seems to be aware of the risk ...

    Huge risk... One breakthrough in battery technology by a specific car manufacturer and this could throw other manufacturers years behind... Also, the customers are a problem as well. If nobody buys these cars...

    This is why I think that sooner or later, politicians will start to rally against petrol/Diesel cars, there will be incentives to switch and there will be a speed limit in Germany as well sooner or later. Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...

    I agree that the EV strategy seems extremely risky. All established markets (US, Europe) are a lottery game. The only sound basis is China as the Chinese might be crazy enough to focus enough resources on EV cars and infrastructure. Volkswagen might have a good channel into this market, given their excellent Chinese track record and also as they are based in Germany. For Tesla, in contrast, I don't see any reasonable chance. They will be swept away by the competition building up. In China they will, among other reasons, be no successful player as they are US based.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:
    Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...

    couldn't agree more. What's weird though - esp in Germany - is that energy from electricity is way more expensive than energy from diesel. We Germans are masters when it comes to taxing taxes Smiley

    It would be so easy for the government to create incentives to switch to EVs:

    1. No vehicle taxes

    2. Special electricity tariffs for EVs without any taxes

    3. Free parking in cities

    4. Electricity cost for EVs tax deductible for first three years of EV car ownership

    5. 200 kph speed limit for EVs, 140 kph for "normal" cars or no speed limit at all for EVs (but I guess the car industry would oppose that)

    Just a few examples...


    --

    RC (Germany) - Rennteam Editor Audi R8 V10 Plus (2016), Mercedes E63 S AMG Edition 1 (2018), Mercedes C63 S AMG Cab (2019), Range Rover Evoque Si4 Black Edition (2019)


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    RC:
    schmoell:
    Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...

    couldn't agree more. What's weird though - esp in Germany - is that energy from electricity is way more expensive than energy from diesel. We Germans are masters when it comes to taxing taxes Smiley

    It would be so easy for the government to create incentives to switch to EVs:

    1. No vehicle taxes

    2. Special electricity tariffs for EVs without any taxes

    3. Free parking in cities

    4. Electricity cost for EVs tax deductible for first three years of EV car ownership

    5. 200 kph speed limit for EVs, 140 kph for "normal" cars or no speed limit at all for EVs (but I guess the car industry would oppose that)

    Just a few examples...

    At first they need to install tens of thousands of chargers in the cities. Which is impossible due to lack of backbone infrastructure and many other things.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The building I park under has EV charging station for EVERY parking stall in the building. Three levels of parking, probably 250 stalls. That is still the exception but every office building in the Toronto core has at least 10-12 stations and many of the class-a towers have upwards of 25-50. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    It is going to be a long time before EV are mainstream in Europe. They simply do not have the money to get the infrastructure ready and households do not have the money to get proper charging installed in their homes.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    RC:
    schmoell:
    Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...

    couldn't agree more. What's weird though - esp in Germany - is that energy from electricity is way more expensive than energy from diesel. We Germans are masters when it comes to taxing taxes Smiley

    It would be so easy for the government to create incentives to switch to EVs:

    1. No vehicle taxes

    2. Special electricity tariffs for EVs without any taxes

    3. Free parking in cities

    4. Electricity cost for EVs tax deductible for first three years of EV car ownership

    5. 200 kph speed limit for EVs, 140 kph for "normal" cars or no speed limit at all for EVs (but I guess the car industry would oppose that)

    Just a few examples...

    At first they need to install tens of thousands of chargers in the cities. Which is impossible due to lack of backbone infrastructure and many other things.

     

    Not in China.

    When you have a dictator, shit gets done. Quickly.

    If China really wants to, they can say in Beijing, one of the most air polluted cities in the world, installs thousands of charging stations all around, they just need to confiscate the land and build whatever they want.

    There is no both sides of the isle constantly debating back and forth and bog down needed infrastructures.

     


    --

     

     


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Getting the charging infrastructure in place for mainstream ELV usage over here will take 30+ years at least (I guess) and we will be "constantly debating back and forth" during that time.Eventually it will be done, unless something better comes around the corner - eg fuel cells. We've also built huge amounts of gas stations, oil pipelines, offshore platforms, tankers and other infrastructure to enable mobility. Compared to this I think that an alternative grid will not be that bad.

    Still I think, that environmentalists & parts of the political spectrum underestimate the endeavor, the danger for our economies and that eventually someone has to pay all of this. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    At the beginning of the 1920's in the US there were less than 15,000 gas stations. By the end of the decade there were over 200,000.


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    The difference between the rise of the oil/ICE industry and the potential rise of ELVs is that the first one was mainly driven by the market, whereas the latter seems to be heavily driven by politics - this is at least my take. I sympathize very much with a move towards sustainable energy, because it's just plain stupid to burn oil for heating and transport, not even mentioning the emissions. But I'm worried that this is mostly driven by political agendas and we all know how well this can go. 

    Slightly funny story: Friends and others often attacked me for driving gas guzzlers and I always told them that this is because we, as a society, have to burn all the oil before we start innovating, that hybrids, low powered cars etc will just make the suffering longer and driving these cars is my contribution to a more sustainable future. 


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Mithras:

    The building I park under has EV charging station for EVERY parking stall in the building. Three levels of parking, probably 250 stalls. That is still the exception but every office building in the Toronto core has at least 10-12 stations and many of the class-a towers have upwards of 25-50. 

    Question:  Are the charging station high speed or simply 220/230 V outlets?  The infrastructure for the so-called high speed charging stations would almost be prohibitive but a trickle type system is definitely more manageable.  However, one would imagine that there is government subsidies involved in your parking structure.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    SciFrog:

    It is going to be a long time before EV are mainstream in Europe. They simply do not have the money to get the infrastructure ready and households do not have the money to get proper charging installed in their homes.

    The money is the same in the EU as in the US. If it would pay off investors would fund it... Just it does not make any sense to reasonable business people...


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    Whoopsy:
    MKSGR:
    RC:
    schmoell:
    Right now, the population isn't really ready for EVs but they (politics, environmental organizations, etc.) are already prepping the field for them...

    couldn't agree more. What's weird though - esp in Germany - is that energy from electricity is way more expensive than energy from diesel. We Germans are masters when it comes to taxing taxes Smiley

    It would be so easy for the government to create incentives to switch to EVs:

    1. No vehicle taxes

    2. Special electricity tariffs for EVs without any taxes

    3. Free parking in cities

    4. Electricity cost for EVs tax deductible for first three years of EV car ownership

    5. 200 kph speed limit for EVs, 140 kph for "normal" cars or no speed limit at all for EVs (but I guess the car industry would oppose that)

    Just a few examples...

    At first they need to install tens of thousands of chargers in the cities. Which is impossible due to lack of backbone infrastructure and many other things.

     

    Not in China.

    When you have a dictator, shit gets done. Quickly.

    If China really wants to, they can say in Beijing, one of the most air polluted cities in the world, installs thousands of charging stations all around, they just need to confiscate the land and build whatever they want.

    There is no both sides of the isle constantly debating back and forth and bog down needed infrastructures.

     

    That's why I wrote about the importance of the Chinese market. All other markets are probably never adopting to EV at all, despite the current hysteria.


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    schmoell:

    The difference between the rise of the oil/ICE industry and the potential rise of ELVs is that the first one was mainly driven by the market, whereas the latter seems to be heavily driven by politics -
     

    100% correct Smiley


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    MKSGR:
    schmoell:

    The difference between the rise of the oil/ICE industry and the potential rise of ELVs is that the first one was mainly driven by the market, whereas the latter seems to be heavily driven by politics -
     

    100% correct Smiley

    Definitely concur with the above statement.  EV demand is strictly determined by government regulation, not consumer demand.  If one were to reexamine the history of the U.S. auto industry, one will note that the industry was globally dominate with GM even holding 50% of the market in the United States, until the enactment of the Clean Air Act of 1970 and the fuel crises of that same decade.  This one-two blow damaged the U.S. auto industry and it has yet to recover.  This opened the door to the Japanese makers with smaller, much more fuel efficient models.  


    Re: Tesla Roadster

    CGX car nut:
    Mithras:

    The building I park under has EV charging station for EVERY parking stall in the building. Three levels of parking, probably 250 stalls. That is still the exception but every office building in the Toronto core has at least 10-12 stations and many of the class-a towers have upwards of 25-50. 

    Question:  Are the charging station high speed or simply 220/230 V outlets?  The infrastructure for the so-called high speed charging stations would almost be prohibitive but a trickle type system is definitely more manageable.  However, one would imagine that there is government subsidies involved in your parking structure.  

    No just the wall mounted 240V. Still over the course of an eight hour work day that's nearly a full charge. 


    --

    Past-President, Porsche Club of America - Upper Canada Region


     
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