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    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    My 2 cents: Every guy needs 3 cars, a sports car, a sports sedan, and a SUV. My philosospy is to be true to the genre of the type of vehicle in its class. When looking for an SUV, get a REAL SUV (you already have a sports car and sports sedan to satisfy your other needs). Over the last many decades, the real king of SUV's is the Landcruiser (LX470 is the lexus version). Sure Range Rover makes a good SUV, but build quality, reliability, ergonomics, ride quality are unbeatable (for a large SUV). And then if you ever decide to go offroad, you cannot beat it either. Landcruisers were used in the gulf war, they are used when off roading in the outback in Australia, etc. Many people will say, forget about the LX470, get the GX470 instead (Forerunner), and save 15K as they are almost the same. They are partially correct, but they are truely different beasts. Also the GX470 outsells the X5, ML, and Cayanne combined (which would somewhat confirm why they are prefered over their german counterparts). But it is a little smaller than the LX, and the LX will truely hold 7 adults (I can get 3 full car seats in the middle row, only the big SUV's can do that).

    Sports sedans is wide open. My guess would be in the BMW 5 series range (545), or a Lexus GS430, E500 (maybe even infinity M45). Any of these cars would be phenominal. Don't have to go overboard here since you will have the sports car.

    For sports car, well, 977 of somesort, I would suggest C2S Cabriolet (one cars has to be a convertible if living in Ca or Tx).

    Have fun, what a great opportunity you have to get three new cars at once.

    Deven

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    PTM said:
    Yikes - well that completes that thread-jacking.

    Anyway, thanks for the great suggestions. As of this moment, I guess I would lean towards:

    Wife: X3 or ML
    Sports: 997S or 4S (Maybe cab)
    Daily car: ??

    Kindest regards,

    Paul



    ML is a great choice. The 4S/cab would also be a great choice but I would use it as the everyday car. It doesn't have to be a "sports"/weekend car. The 997 is great for everyday use. I wouldn't spend the money on a 3rd car. I would get a Turbo instead.

    But if you felt you had to spend the money on a 3rd car I would consider something like a lease on a new A6 (for 2 couples out to nice dinner etc)

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    Deven said:
    My 2 cents: Every guy needs 3 cars, a sports car, a sports sedan, and a SUV. My philosospy is to be true to the genre of the type of vehicle in its class. When looking for an SUV, get a REAL SUV (you already have a sports car and sports sedan to satisfy your other needs). Over the last many decades, the real king of SUV's is the Landcruiser (LX470 is the lexus version). Sure Range Rover makes a good SUV, but build quality, reliability, ergonomics, ride quality are unbeatable (for a large SUV). And then if you ever decide to go offroad, you cannot beat it either. Landcruisers were used in the gulf war, they are used when off roading in the outback in Australia, etc. Many people will say, forget about the LX470, get the GX470 instead (Forerunner), and save 15K as they are almost the same. They are partially correct, but they are truely different beasts. Also the GX470 outsells the X5, ML, and Cayanne combined (which would somewhat confirm why they are prefered over their german counterparts). But it is a little smaller than the LX, and the LX will truely hold 7 adults (I can get 3 full car seats in the middle row, only the big SUV's can do that).

    Sports sedans is wide open. My guess would be in the BMW 5 series range (545), or a Lexus GS430, E500 (maybe even infinity M45). Any of these cars would be phenominal. Don't have to go overboard here since you will have the sports car.

    For sports car, well, 977 of somesort, I would suggest C2S Cabriolet (one cars has to be a convertible if living in Ca or Tx).

    Have fun, what a great opportunity you have to get three new cars at once.

    Deven




    Completely agree about the cab. Especially if he's going to be in TX or CA. Love my "C2S Cabriolet". Even more than my Turbo because of the convertible roof. The convertible roof has come such a long way. It's amazingly quiet when closed & open. There is very little difference in road noise from my cab to the coupe I had. Very little. It's awesome because the car transforms when on the move making things always more interesting. I know it's a canvas top but the first panel that closes onto the winshield is a hard panel.

    Regarding the LX - Same w/ my Durango. Seats 7 comfortable and have taken 8 w/ me.(the third seat is large)

    M45 is an awesome car.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    My wife drives a Lincoln Navigator. It's fantastic, in the context of the job for which it is intended. It drives totally different than the Expedition. The 5.4L gets 4-valve heads. The 6-speed auto transmission is from Jaguar. It rides on full air-suspension, with auto load-levelling, and electronic roll-over control. The speed-sensitive steering is Lincoln-only. Air-conditioned seats, rear DVD, power 3rd row seating, power deployed running boards, power up and down liftgate, navigation, rear DVD, it's got more features than Maybach..... My 5'-2" 110 lb. wife struggling with a baby in one arm really digs and uses all of its features, as they come in handy for a busy mom. We test-drove Expeditions prior to buying her Navigator (which she absolutely loves, to this day), and the difference was......(sorry about this)....NIGHT AND DAY!! Enough room that it carried us on a 3-day 1,000 mile football road-trip with 7 adult passengers AND all the luggage comfortably inside the vehicle. You'd need to tow a U-Haul trailer to accomplish that in any Euro or Asian SUV.

    So I've got your back LPM!!!! I don't find it "homey", not any more so than a full-boat bling-bling Cayenne Turbo tooling down the road.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    69bossnine said:
    My wife drives a Lincoln Navigator. It's fantastic, in the context of the job for which it is intended. It drives totally different than the Expedition. The 5.4L gets 4-valve heads. The 6-speed auto transmission is from Jaguar. It rides on full air-suspension, with auto load-levelling, and electronic roll-over control. The speed-sensitive steering is Lincoln-only. Air-conditioned seats, rear DVD, power 3rd row seating, power deployed running boards, power up and down liftgate, navigation, rear DVD, it's got more features than Maybach..... My 5'-2" 110 lb. wife struggling with a baby in one arm really digs and uses all of its features, as they come in handy for a busy mom. We test-drove Expeditions prior to buying her Navigator (which she absolutely loves, to this day), and the difference was......(sorry about this)....NIGHT AND DAY!! Enough room that it carried us on a 3-day 1,000 mile football road-trip with 7 adult passengers AND all the luggage comfortably inside the vehicle. You'd need to tow a U-Haul trailer to accomplish that in any Euro or Asian SUV.

    So I've got your back LPM!!!! I don't find it "homey", not any more so than a full-boat bling-bling Cayenne Turbo tooling down the road.



    That's fine. I don't mind discussing and having a difference of opinion on vehicles. That's part of the fun here.

    He said they weren't similar. Of course they're similar. That's how Ford Lincoln Mercury makes each one more profitbale. By using similar parts and manufacturing methods/ R&D. GMC Chevy does it too with the Tahoe / Denali/Escalade.

    What I wont do is have a discussion or respond to someone that reverts to name calling/personal attacks/accusations. I saw that I laughed pretty hard.

    ps - Come on. A stock Navigator is 10 times more "bling-bling" then a Cayenne.

    Did you see "Be cool" ? Which truck was that again ? The Escalade or the Navigator ?

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    I never said they weren't similar. I said they're as different as night and day. I know they were both conceived in the same room but the Lincoln rides infinitely better and is much, much quieter. Bossman noticed it on a short test ride. I put 65,000 miles on an 98 Eddie Bauer Expedition and then put 65,000 on an 01 Navigator. My wife got an 03 Gator to replace her ML so, not needing two Gators, I got a Porsche. You can show me a letter from the Pope saying they're similar and I'm going to still tell you they're very different vehicles. Driving each of them every day for 3 years tells you more about a car than anything you can read. Kinda like reading a book about sex vs. actually doing it.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    You guys are making me want to buy an Expedition/Navigator right now.

    I've ridden in both an Expedition and Navigator (coincidentally, to golf outings ) and they both ride great. I'll have to pay more attention to the differences now that I'm a little interested in one.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Quote:
    GA5656 said:
    Hey! I've also got a new F150 and feel safer in it than any other thing I've driven. Granted it's only for the mass of the thing. The interior, while mostly plastic, is a vast improvement from earlier trucks. Descent audiophile stereo though the acoustics require better speaker placement to sound really good. Agree w/ 69, can't do without a pickup (own 3 houses and NO apartments). Big Blazing Yellow FX4 SCab (not cabriolet) w/ 5.5' bed. ha.. have S Cab truck and getting S Cab 997!



    Amazed that any sportscar/risk-reward-conscious guys would put wives and rugrats (that they cared about) in any SUV's/minivans/pickups...most engineers would prob agree that SUV-type platforms are fundamentally flawed from a safety perspective...high center of gravity/rollover risk, weak brakes/handling capabilities, uncertain roof strength, and who wants to put possible missles (sorry, vital storage crap) in the back of any SUV for launch in severe deceleration?....common sense, right? I guess if a near-term divorce is anticipated, an SUV for the wife (and future litigant) may have value, but otherwise?

    Seriously, only drive P/F sportscars...and when I rarely drive a "normal" sedan/SUV, I tend to drive much slower (and w/much trepidation) as these vehicles (incl AMG/M cars, ex-SL55) feel much less safe than a P w/their sloppy steering/handling/brakes, etc, no matter how much heavier they may be....

    And, if I wanted to possibly injure my back, I'd rather do it w/activities not remotely related to carting crap back to a house from Home Depot....life's too short to spend doing stuff that a maid/gardener/chef/other tradesman can do a lot better than most amateurs who would prob do better focusing on their day jobs....



    It sounds logical, I often thought the same thing until I went from putting my 4 and 5 year olds in a car from an SUV. I looked at my wife and my kids in their child seats on the same level (height) as everybody else and way lower then Tractor Trailer bumpers with much less protecting the back and sides and said - Noo, don't think so. In my area every other vehicle is an suv. I much rather have them in an suv then a car. I didn't realize how strongly I felt about this until I saw them so low and unprotected in a regular car.



    Strad, have you seen any data supporting argument that increased ride height/weight necessarily translates to better crash outcomes?....in crash test data or IIHS crash injury rates?...or common sense engineering assessment of crash structures/systems? Unfortunately, much of the crash data for many vehicles is non-public/difficult to interpret for easy comparisons, but I think there's enough data to place thoughtful bets.....

    Cars in which I feel safest are 996TTS/997S and SL55 (I hate lack of a fixed roof, but SL has so many other strong safety attributes).....I think of crash safety in terms of both active and passive safety.....can't say I feel as safe in a CL/S55 b/c of their sloppier steering and higher center of gravity....but if I had to carry more than 1 passenger, CL/S55 would be the only vehicles I would consider....every SUV/other sedan seems to be materially weaker in active/passive safety systems.....after all, let's not forget BMW still struggles to develop competent brakes for its M5.....and US SUV makers seem to have mthly major safety recalls/lawsuits (remember the Explorer's issues?....then-CEO Nasser of Ford claimed his family used Explorers, so they must be safe... but he filed for divorce shortly after he was fired from Ford...draw your own conclusions... )

    Just as all sportscar drivers should prob invest in driving education courses to improve their driving skills/manage potential crash situations, guys should consider putting their wives/nannies in similar driving courses to train skilled, alert drivers, to help reduce odds of crashes/crash injuries, esp after putting their families in a vehicle that is likely to be more adept in first avoiding crashes and then withstanding an unavoidable crash.....

    Have never been in a crash, but know enough from other's mistakes that I've thought carefully about crash risks/driving thrill rewards of any car I drive...and even target my favorite wkend mtn roads w/consideration of nearest trauma center in event of a crash....in my case Stanford Med Ctr, one of the world's best, but unfortunately many other great driving roads are in the middle of nowhere....where injury outcomes can be materially different.....paranoid thinking?...sure, but only the paranoid survive as someone once said.....and post-crash life in a wheelchair/disfigured sucks....

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    VKSF said:have you seen any data supporting argument that increased ride height/weight necessarily translates to better crash outcomes?


    One of our car programmes (I think it was Fifth Gear) did a series of articles on car accidents. One featured footage of two identical sedan cars in a head-on collision. One was fully loaded, so was running a couple of inches lower. The one that had the height advantage came off better in the collision. This is because higher car over-rode the lower-car's energy absorbing crash structure by a small margin, expending more of it's energy into the non-absorbing crash structures.

    For a SUV vs Sedan collision, this affect is much more pronounced. Basically, their energy absorbing crash structures in the front ends are at different heights, so don't meet in a collision. Along with the extra weight (And therefore more energy) this is catastrophic for the sedan! Co-incidentally, Volvo, in ther XC90 SUV have deliberately engineered their front crash structure so it meets up with a lower (normal) cars crash structure better. So it's not only safer for you, but safer for whoever you hit!

    So, yes, height and weight count for a lot in a frontal accident, and it has been tested.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Although the test footage I spoke of above isn't there, there are some other good clips from Fifth Gear to download
    http://www.7digital.com/shops/assets/fifthgear/features.aspx
    Unfortunately you have to pay.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    This is the way I would interpret the discussion re. SUV vs. sedan injury risk in an accident: Compared to in a standard sedan, in an accident in an SUV, the driver and passengers are at LOWER risk of injury due to the SUV's higher ride, BUT in an SUV, the driver and passengers are at HIGHER risk of injury due to the higher risk of accident (due to the SUV's higher ride with a higher center of gravity).

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    I see what you're saying Al Pettee. But I would guess that the increased risk of an accident caused by the instability of an SUV (that would not have happened if the vehicle had been a sedan) is much less than the increased risk of injury when being in a crashed sedan (compared to a crashed SUV).

    If the SUV is a good-handling one such as a Cayenne, I would say that the instability wouldn't be a factor.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    997S
    Range Rover
    Audi A8
    Classic.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    SoCal Alan said:
    You guys are making me want to buy an Expedition/Navigator right now.

    I've ridden in both an Expedition and Navigator (coincidentally, to golf outings ) and they both ride great. I'll have to pay more attention to the differences now that I'm a little interested in one.



    I've driven both for weeks at a time when I would travel to Toronto and rent from Hertz. The Navigator is more luxerious. The Expedition is more utility. Both have way too much body-roll and too short on power for my tastes. The new Dodge Durango does everything Quicker, better, quieter w/ more room then an Expedition/Navigator. Full frame and more gvw (6400) then Navigator yet it's faster AND has better fuel economy. Go figure. 345 hp for the Hemi. and 15 sec. quarter mile times vs 17 sec. for the Navigator. Quickness for an suv might not seem important until you drive one all the time. Durango even has more towing capacity. The "Limited" model basically has more of just about everything for less. It's powerful like a Cayenne S but has more room and 3 rows of seats.

    And it has to be the quietest in cabin big suv. It feels/sounds like a Lexus inside it's so quiet. No contest for OFF-ROAD if you need that either. I put my deposit down for the Durango (we already had the previous generation)as soon as I saw these concept photos.
    http://www.allpar.com/cars/concepts/durango.html

    Turns out the actual truck was very close to the concept. More of a bullett proof Muscle-SUV then anything. And yes, it's got a HEMI. Mines black like this:

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Quote:
    STRADALE said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:
    Quote:
    GA5656 said:
    Hey! I've also got a new F150 and feel safer in it than any other thing I've driven. Granted it's only for the mass of the thing. The interior, while mostly plastic, is a vast improvement from earlier trucks. Descent audiophile stereo though the acoustics require better speaker placement to sound really good. Agree w/ 69, can't do without a pickup (own 3 houses and NO apartments). Big Blazing Yellow FX4 SCab (not cabriolet) w/ 5.5' bed. ha.. have S Cab truck and getting S Cab 997!



    Amazed that any sportscar/risk-reward-conscious guys would put wives and rugrats (that they cared about) in any SUV's/minivans/pickups...most engineers would prob agree that SUV-type platforms are fundamentally flawed from a safety perspective...high center of gravity/rollover risk, weak brakes/handling capabilities, uncertain roof strength, and who wants to put possible missles (sorry, vital storage crap) in the back of any SUV for launch in severe deceleration?....common sense, right? I guess if a near-term divorce is anticipated, an SUV for the wife (and future litigant) may have value, but otherwise?

    Seriously, only drive P/F sportscars...and when I rarely drive a "normal" sedan/SUV, I tend to drive much slower (and w/much trepidation) as these vehicles (incl AMG/M cars, ex-SL55) feel much less safe than a P w/their sloppy steering/handling/brakes, etc, no matter how much heavier they may be....

    And, if I wanted to possibly injure my back, I'd rather do it w/activities not remotely related to carting crap back to a house from Home Depot....life's too short to spend doing stuff that a maid/gardener/chef/other tradesman can do a lot better than most amateurs who would prob do better focusing on their day jobs....



    It sounds logical, I often thought the same thing until I went from putting my 4 and 5 year olds in a car from an SUV. I looked at my wife and my kids in their child seats on the same level (height) as everybody else and way lower then Tractor Trailer bumpers with much less protecting the back and sides and said - Noo, don't think so. In my area every other vehicle is an suv. I much rather have them in an suv then a car. I didn't realize how strongly I felt about this until I saw them so low and unprotected in a regular car.



    Strad, have you seen any data supporting argument that increased ride height/weight necessarily translates to better crash outcomes?....in crash test data or IIHS crash injury rates?...or common sense engineering assessment of crash structures/systems? Unfortunately, much of the crash data for many vehicles is non-public/difficult to interpret for easy comparisons, but I think there's enough data to place thoughtful bets.....

    Cars in which I feel safest are 996TTS/997S and SL55 (I hate lack of a fixed roof, but SL has so many other strong safety attributes).....I think of crash safety in terms of both active and passive safety.....can't say I feel as safe in a CL/S55 b/c of their sloppier steering and higher center of gravity....but if I had to carry more than 1 passenger, CL/S55 would be the only vehicles I would consider....every SUV/other sedan seems to be materially weaker in active/passive safety systems.....after all, let's not forget BMW still struggles to develop competent brakes for its M5.....and US SUV makers seem to have mthly major safety recalls/lawsuits (remember the Explorer's issues?....then-CEO Nasser of Ford claimed his family used Explorers, so they must be safe... but he filed for divorce shortly after he was fired from Ford...draw your own conclusions... )

    Just as all sportscar drivers should prob invest in driving education courses to improve their driving skills/manage potential crash situations, guys should consider putting their wives/nannies in similar driving courses to train skilled, alert drivers, to help reduce odds of crashes/crash injuries, esp after putting their families in a vehicle that is likely to be more adept in first avoiding crashes and then withstanding an unavoidable crash.....

    Have never been in a crash, but know enough from other's mistakes that I've thought carefully about crash risks/driving thrill rewards of any car I drive...and even target my favorite wkend mtn roads w/consideration of nearest trauma center in event of a crash....in my case Stanford Med Ctr, one of the world's best, but unfortunately many other great driving roads are in the middle of nowhere....where injury outcomes can be materially different.....paranoid thinking?...sure, but only the paranoid survive as someone once said.....and post-crash life in a wheelchair/disfigured sucks....



    My feeling has more to do with experience and gut feel then w/ data. I can't believe you've never been in a wreck. I haven't while driving in about 6 years but have been in at least 20 accidents riding with other people. riding in taxi's, riding in box trucks etc. I also had quite a few of my own accidents while driving when I was younger. My feeling not just based on how it feels to walk away from an accident in a small car (very sore) vs. a suv it has to do with listening to my fater-in-law - Chief surgeon at a local hospital and EMT friends and what they put their families in. I agree it's important to be in a car that could maybe avoid and accident I think I rather have my wife and kids in a vehicle that is skewed towards coming out better in an accident. Can't explain it but when I've seen my kids in their car seats sitting in a small car it just doesn't feel as safe as when they're buckled up in an suv. While an suv might not handle as well as a sports car I think the chances of someone being really hurt goes up significantly the smaller the car. And the harder someone is hit the more likely they will be seriously injured in a small car vs hitting an suv accident imo at least. It's important that the suv has side curtain airbags in front and back. abs, etc.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    Quote:
    VKSF said:have you seen any data supporting argument that increased ride height/weight necessarily translates to better crash outcomes?


    One of our car programmes (I think it was Fifth Gear) did a series of articles on car accidents. One featured footage of two identical sedan cars in a head-on collision. One was fully loaded, so was running a couple of inches lower. The one that had the height advantage came off better in the collision. This is because higher car over-rode the lower-car's energy absorbing crash structure by a small margin, expending more of it's energy into the non-absorbing crash structures.

    For a SUV vs Sedan collision, this affect is much more pronounced. Basically, their energy absorbing crash structures in the front ends are at different heights, so don't meet in a collision. Along with the extra weight (And therefore more energy) this is catastrophic for the sedan! Co-incidentally, Volvo, in ther XC90 SUV have deliberately engineered their front crash structure so it meets up with a lower (normal) cars crash structure better. So it's not only safer for you, but safer for whoever you hit!

    So, yes, height and weight count for a lot in a frontal accident, and it has been tested.



    Interesting. So there is data.

    The NEW Durango also engineered their front crash structure to be kinder to smaller vehicles.
    Check this out:

    The tapered octagonal frame rails in the 2004 Dodge Durango fold like accordions when the SUV meets another car. Which makes the new Durango's crumple zone the first to be explicitly designed to help protect the occupants of the other vehicle. Also, lowered bumpers prevent the SUV from riding up and over the bumpers of smaller cars.

    " DODGE DURANGO FRAME RAILS: A tapered octagonal cross-section increases crushability. The rails are placed lower to match the bumper height of other cars.

    Re: Need your expertise & advice - cars to buy??

    Quote:
    wtsnet said:
    I see what you're saying Al Pettee. But I would guess that the increased risk of an accident caused by the instability of an SUV (that would not have happened if the vehicle had been a sedan) is much less than the increased risk of injury when being in a crashed sedan (compared to a crashed SUV).

    If the SUV is a good-handling one such as a Cayenne, I would say that the instability wouldn't be a factor.




    Wtsnet,

    Yes, this is precisely what I was getting at, although I would make the comparison you stated more "parallel" by re-stating what you wrote (my addition in CAPITAL LETTERS) as: ". . . the INCREASED RISK OF INJURY DUE TO the increased risk of an accident caused by the instability of an SUV (that would not have happened had the vehicle been a sedan) is much less than the increased risk of injury DUE TO THE HIGHER RATE OF INJURY PER ACCIDENT when being in a crashed sedan (compared to a crashed SUV)."

    This is where one needs good crash/injury data. In other words, is an SUV more safe than a sedan because, compared to a sedan, the SUV's larger size and higher ride (protecting the driver and passengers from the trauma of impact in a given accident) and subsequent lower INJURY rate per accident OUTWEIGH the SUV's (?possible/?exaggerated) higher ACCIDENT rate?

    You may be correct that the data favors the SUV, especially for the Cayenne. Does anyone know of good data to answer this question?

     
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