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    Jun 25, 2004 3:42:43 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    What is the difference between RUF and Porsche Gmbh in terms of quality, reliability, and warranty? RC is not impressed by RUF's products. Why? Is RUF not respected in Germany? Is there a German aftermarket tuner who is better than RUF and offers better quality, reliability, and warranty?

    Jun 25, 2004 4:16:49 PM

    Porsche Fan
    Junior
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Good question..
    RC, Why do you not like RUF automobiles?

    Eric

    Jun 25, 2004 4:19:55 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: Porsche Fan

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    Porsche Fan said:
    Good question..
    RC, Why do you not like RUF automobiles?

    Eric



    I thought I remember RC being rather complimentary to the Ruf models

    Jun 25, 2004 8:03:55 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: Porsche Fan

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    Porsche Fan said:
    Good question..
    RC, Why do you not like RUF automobiles?

    Eric



    Eric! Good to hear from you! I sent you a p.m. 1-2 weeks ago. Did you receive it? If not, I will send it to you again.

    Jun 25, 2004 8:07:50 PM

    Moogle
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    personally i'm not too impressed either, it is a bit overpriced...

    for (in most cases) half the money of a RUF upgrade/entire car, you could upgrade to much better performance on the equivalent porsche model.

    basically you are getting raped 3 times

    1st time is when you start w/ porsche
    2nd time is when you upgrade to RUF parts at significant premium
    and 3rd time (if you are buying an entirely ground up RUF vehicle) you get raped for the premium of the RUF badge.

    i think its cheaper to upgrade a current porsche to RUF standards/parts and then badge it as RUF, which is perfectly legitimate and not 'poseurish', since RUF is a tuner as WELL as a manufactuer, and there are only minor differences between cars that they manufactuer themselves versus porsches they modify to the equivalent RUF models aftermarket.

    Jun 25, 2004 8:10:43 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: Grant

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    Grant said:

    I thought I remember RC being rather complimentary to the Ruf models



    Grant, here is a quote by RC:

    "If ben says the 996 TT is a yacht and then tells me that he drove a RUF suspensioned Turbo (RUF does not have ANY respect from me, this is nothing new...he builds "showcars" for the US and Americans fall for them over and over again), I really don't know what to say."

    The quote was taken from this thread:
    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=37130&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1

    Jun 25, 2004 8:22:06 PM

    Grant
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    Quote:
    Grant said:

    I thought I remember RC being rather complimentary to the Ruf models



    Grant, here is a quote by RC:

    "If ben says the 996 TT is a yacht and then tells me that he drove a RUF suspensioned Turbo (RUF does not have ANY respect from me, this is nothing new...he builds "showcars" for the US and Americans fall for them over and over again), I really don't know what to say."

    The quote was taken from this thread:
    http://www.rennteam.com/showflat.php?Cat=&Number=37130&page=0&view=collapsed&sb=5&o=93&fpart=1



    OK - fair enough - I hadn't seen that...

    Jun 25, 2004 9:32:18 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    What is the difference between RUF and Porsche Gmbh in terms of quality, reliability, and warranty? RC is not impressed by RUF's products. Why? Is RUF not respected in Germany? Is there a German aftermarket tuner who is better than RUF and offers better quality, reliability, and warranty?



    I try to make it short without too much bla bla.

    1. Alois Ruf and his wife are very nice people and Alois for sure is a car nutt, no doubt about it.
    I'm also pretty sure that Alois Ruf, from what I heard from some of his customers, cares very much about customer satisfaction and personal contacts to his customers resulting sometimes in a real friendship relation.
    2. Ruf uses Porsche cars for his products, so I don't see where the better quality should come from? He could be at the same level (although I doubt it because he can't test his products as Weissach does) but not better.
    3. I never saw a current RUF Porsche win a race, RUF also doesn't take part in the Tuner Grand Prix or other comparable media events where similar products are tested one against another.
    4. RUF is not supported by Porsche. I know that some RUF fans claim that but this isn't true. As far as I know, he buys his Porsche parts from Porsche dealers (like anybody else ) and he doesn't get them from Porsche directly.
    Even worse...there is a strong rumor that RUF is on Porsche's "blacklist" regarding parts and support.
    5. The pros who professionally race Porsche cars in Germany and other countries, usually use Reinhold Schmirler (RS-Tuning) for engine building and tuning. Mr. Schmirler is a former employee of RUF and there is a rumor that he didn't leave RUF in a peaceful manner.
    6. RUF seems to "live" from his past, his reputation is still high but right now, there are various other Tuners (well, RUF is actually a manufacturer ) who are specialized in engines, or suspension setups or even specialized on certain Porsche models.

    My personal conclusion: to impress me, it needs more.

    Jun 26, 2004 2:03:45 AM

    wickeddeus
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    RC said:
    4. RUF is not supported by Porsche. I know that some RUF fans claim that but this isn't true. As far as I know, he buys his Porsche parts from Porsche dealers (like anybody else ) and he doesn't get them from Porsche directly.
    Even worse...there is a strong rumor that RUF is on Porsche's "blacklist" regarding parts and support.




    I don't know about the other stuff that was said but this one seems weird to me since from what I understand Ruf is a licensed manufacture in Germany not just a tuner. That would mean that he would have to build his car from the chassis up and that would be kinda hard to do if he was "blacklisted" or had to buy parts from dealers. I could be wrong but I remember Adam talking about this and many car magazine.

    Jun 26, 2004 9:04:11 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: wickeddeus

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    wickeddeus said:
    That would mean that he would have to build his car from the chassis up and that would be kinda hard to do if he was "blacklisted" or had to buy parts from dealers. I could be wrong but I remember Adam talking about this and many car magazine.



    Yes, RUF has the status of a car manufacturer in Germany. Maybe one reason why he doesn't get his supplies directly from Porsche, I don't know.
    I can even tell you from what Porsche dealer he gets his parts but I don't want to put anybody in trouble.

    Just a last thing: the only people who have access to special factory parts, mostly Porsche Motorsport parts, are racing teams.
    And even some racing teams have difficulties to get what they need. This is why there is "Freisinger" in Germany. And now I shut up, this isn't my business.

    Jun 27, 2004 12:26:51 AM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    RC said:
    5. The pros who professionally race Porsche cars in Germany and other countries, usually use Reinhold Schmirler (RS-Tuning) for engine building and tuning. Mr. Schmirler is a former employee of RUF and there is a rumor that he didn't leave RUF in a peaceful manner.




    RC,
    Does Reinhold Schmirler deliver tuned engines that pass U.S. emissions laws for U.S. customers? What about a warranty? How long is his warranty compared to RUF? Does he also upgrade the suspension, brakes, and add a rollcage like RUF or would a customer have to go elsewhere for those additional modifications? Thanks.

    Jun 27, 2004 6:11:59 AM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    I agree that Ruf products are overpriced in comparison to the buying a stock Porsche and choosing your upgrades approach. However, some Ruf models seem to be good packages that are guaranteed to work.

    There have only been a few Ruf models that seemed to be worth it in my opinion. The most recent has been the RGT RS. I am actually quite surprised that this model hasn't been talked about all over this board for two reasons. First of all is that it is a more hard core GT3 and secondly it is available in the States where the GT3 RS is not. I mean it makes 395 hp, dyno guaranteed. (I realize strong stock GT3s make this much, but you don't have to worry about buying a "weak" one). Also, Ruf seems to have done a better job with lightening the car seeing that it weighs in at 2705 pounds. Other goodies include bigger brakes, lighter wheels, better aerodynamics, and revised suspension pieces. Too bad you could buy a GT2 for the 176000 USD or most likely build a faster GT3 for 20k less.

    Jun 27, 2004 1:47:18 PM

    Spyder
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    Reply to: Yargk

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    A bit Off-topic but would like to know what you guys think of Gemballa and compared to Porsche products. Similiar to Ruf, it is hard to justify the high costs.

    Jun 27, 2004 4:02:16 PM

    Yargk
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    Reply to: Spyder

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    Spyder said:
    A bit Off-topic but would like to know what you guys think of Gemballa and compared to Porsche products. Similiar to Ruf, it is hard to justify the high costs.



    At least they set some lap records (compared to Ruf).

    Jun 28, 2004 12:15:16 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    MAVERICK said:
    RC,
    Does Reinhold Schmirler deliver tuned engines that pass U.S. emissions laws for U.S. customers? What about a warranty? How long is his warranty compared to RUF? Does he also upgrade the suspension, brakes, and add a rollcage like RUF or would a customer have to go elsewhere for those additional modifications? Thanks.



    Honestly, I don't know. I know that some other german Tuners like Cargraphic are using RS tuned engines but I don't know more. And as much as I appreciate Reinhold Schmirler's professional work, his brother who is responsible for marketing and sales doesn't stand up to it, at least this is my experience and the exprience of a good friend.
    Unfortunately he is also the person you have to deal with, if something doesn't work right.

    Right now it is difficult to recommend a Tuner. Why? Because some provide great work but the after-sales service is lousy.
    Some provide crappy work but the service is OK. And some provide a crappy work and a crappy service. I can speak for german Tuners only.
    To make it short: NOBODY can offer the quality Porsche offers. Imagine how much testing has to be done to be able to judge the durability of an engine, gearbox or any other part.
    I mean Porsche sends out dozends of prototypes driving and testing throughout the world and a Tuner builds one single prototype and maybe does 5000-10000 km in it and that's it?
    Sorry but Tuning NEVER can be as reliable as factory stuff, at least not if you're seriously track racing the car.
    This is why I only trust RS when it comes to engine tuning because I know that his engines are pretty durable since they are raced in many races by different teams. And I trust H&R for his coilover kits because Mr. Remmen (the "R") is a passionate Porschephile too and he likes to do things right.

    I just wish Porsche would offer more factory tuning stuff, so we don't have to rely on aftermarket Tuners.

    Jun 28, 2004 9:52:26 PM

    MAVERICK Offline
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    RC said:
    And as much as I appreciate Reinhold Schmirler's professional work, his brother who is responsible for marketing and sales doesn't stand up to it, at least this is my experience and the exprience of a good friend.
    Unfortunately he is also the person you have to deal with, if something doesn't work right.



    RC,
    The quality of his brother's work would explain why the RS Tuning website is poorly designed.

    Quote:
    RC said:
    Right now it is difficult to recommend a Tuner. Why? Because some provide great work but the after-sales service is lousy.
    Some provide crappy work but the service is OK. And some provide a crappy work and a crappy service. I can speak for german Tuners only.


    Since we know that RUF has good service, do you regard his work as crappy or is it good but not up to Reinhold Schmirler's proven standards?

    Also, are there any other and/or better German tuners who offer a complete package like RUF where a customer gets a modified engine, suspension, brakes, rollcage, lighter body panels, interior and warranty?

    Quote:
    RC said:
    To make it short: NOBODY can offer the quality Porsche offers. Imagine how much testing has to be done to be able to judge the durability of an engine, gearbox or any other part.
    I mean Porsche sends out dozends of prototypes driving and testing throughout the world and a Tuner builds one single prototype and maybe does 5000-10000 km in it and that's it?
    Sorry but Tuning NEVER can be as reliable as factory stuff, at least not if you're seriously track racing the car.
    This is why I only trust RS when it comes to engine tuning because I know that his engines are pretty durable since they are raced in many races by different teams. And I trust H&R for his coilover kits because Mr. Remmen (the "R") is a passionate Porschephile too and he likes to do things right.

    I just wish Porsche would offer more factory tuning stuff, so we don't have to rely on aftermarket Tuners.


    I agree.

    Jul 11, 2004 3:02:29 PM

    Adamt
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    Reply to: MAVERICK

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    I think ill throw in my "2 cents" as it were...

    I think the major consensus here is that RUF products are "overpriced" and thus are not deemed value for money. Well the reason they are overpriced is because of the large amounts of time and money spent developing the products, case in point the R Turbo has been constantly revised and has evolved from a car with 520bhp in late 01 to the Nardo spec 620bhp+ car now. All because of ongoing devlopment and tuning. Further more the warranties you recieve and the customer service and support is second to none.

    Of course RUF cannot compete with with Porsche in terms of testing, they are a small company, but Alois RUF's tecnical mind is superb and the people who work for him are artists. Who are meticulous in their work and thought process's. Its quite mind boggling watching these guys work, every effort is done on their part to produce a product that goes above and beyond the original design parameter and specification.

    Product quality can be quite an interesting thing to compare, had the chance to compare a Porsche Guards Red tt (03 model) with the ruf vin R turbo (03 model). Not only was the finish to the paint work appreciably better but so too was the interior. The porsche was finished to the highest standards with many extras, however the finish and "feel" of the car was somewhat lacking in comparison to the ruf product. It was a beautiful car, however even the owner agreed that the RUF finish was considerably better.

    I remember reading on 6speedonline.com that construction of a tt takes little over a week. This is full on mass production of course. RUF cars take 6000 man hours, the cars are handbuilt, the way the alcantara has been weaved and moulded around the IRC is a delight,

    Funnily enough in terms of relations, when we were taking delivery of the car Mark Porsche arrived, he was there because his Carrera 4S was being modified by RUF to R turbo spec. Black list relations well not really.

    At the end of the day its a personal choice, and there are many good german tuners, RS is exceptional in their racing application. However for the road there is little that can touch a RUF, including Porsche.

    To sum up, one Porsche owner i met who was visiting RUF with some friends summed ruf up nicely,
    "its how porsche used to be, a small professional , specialist who can produce individual and outstanding cars"

    all the very best
    adam

    Jul 11, 2004 3:43:20 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Adamt

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    Adamt said:
    Funnily enough in terms of relations, when we were taking delivery of the car Mark Porsche arrived, he was there because his Carrera 4S was being modified by RUF to R turbo spec. Black list relations well not really.



    Just out of curiousity: who would that Mark Porsche be? The son of...? Susanne Porsche has two sons and to my knowledge none is in the legal age to be allowed to drive a car.
    A son of FA Porsche? He could get anything he wants from Porsche directly, no need for RUF.
    So who is Mark Porsche? Son of Gerd Porsche? Son of Marlene Porsche? (or both?). Honestly, I'm just curious.

    You can believe what you want but ask Alois where he gets his parts from... And now I really shut up.

    BTW: you told me the same story a year or two years ago, Adam.

    Jul 11, 2004 6:09:36 PM

    Adamt
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Nephew i believe, though cant remember

    Have you been to RUF? I bet if you went for an hour you would stay for the whole day, it is really great

    Jul 12, 2004 1:57:43 PM

    RCA
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    Reply to: Adamt

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    Adamt said:
    Nephew i believe, though cant remember

    Have you been to RUF? I bet if you went for an hour you would stay for the whole day, it is really great



    Adam, I went three times to RUF. He is only 30 minutes away from my home. I had lunch with Alois and his wife, I even drove his 996 Turbo R prototype before the car was even announced to the public.
    Alois is a very friendly guy and I bet he really cares about his customers, no doubt about it.
    But people who know me know that I'm not kissing anybody's feet and I say straight forward what I think.
    Even regarding Porsche...they don't always like it.

    Regarding the Porsche family: to my knowledge, Wolfgang and F.A. Porsche get anything they want from Porsche. Same applies to Ferdinand Piech, who might not always be allowed to see really everything in Weissach but he is a very welcomed guest and customer.
    I mean if this Mark is a nephew of a cousin of a ... of the Porsche family, even I might be a member of the Porsche family. But to be serious: I bet you're young and your father bought a RUF Porsche. Am I right or...am I right?

    Jul 12, 2004 2:19:10 PM

    zzbobaA
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    Quote:
    Even worse...there is a strong rumor that RUF is on Porsche's "blacklist" regarding parts and support.



    i heard that PAG is not very amused because ruf-porsches appeared in sony's PS2 game "gran turismo 3 a-spec" -- PAG didn't want porsche models to appear in that title because of an exclusive license deal with electronic arts (makers of the "need for speed" series).

    but because of this, the ruf brand is now quite popular amoung young gamers, especially in japan and the US.

    so it might work out for ruf in the end...

    Jul 12, 2004 3:00:09 PM

    Adamt
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    Reply to: RCA

    Re: RUF vs. Porsche reliability/quality

    The gist of your post RC is somewhat condescending, you certainly do speak what you think!

    The Porsche family do indeed get everything they want, for instance marks's father was at RUF in the mid 90's also getting his 993 converted to RUF spec, that was in many magazine article, i believe specifically in Excellence in the U.S.

    Also what does being young have to do with discussion ..... and remember RC we didnt buy a RUF porsche, we bought a RUF, big difference remember...

    all the best
    adam
     
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