Rennteam 2.0 - EN - Forum - Some hope remains (997TT NBR time) - Page2

Mar 20, 2006 4:20:17 AM

icon: Pilot; Loc: birmingham.al.usa.na; Posts: 442, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 13, 2006; Reply to: nberry

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
nberry said:
We know from Porsche officials that the 997TT did the Ring in 7:49 and the talk was the weather was bad. If Porsche is claiming the time then it is fair to assume the TT was stock.

Now you explain too me how there can be such a wide difference in performance given the how each is configured.

i didnt think that porsche had publicized a ring time for the 997tt? maybe the time is only a rumour?

if it did indeed beat the f430 it must have been the weight of the ferrari mystique slowing the car down.
or maybe the driver stopped and posed for pics so he could be envied?

what do you think the reason is nick???

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Mar 20, 2006 4:31:50 AM

MKW: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Palo Alto and North Lake Tahoe , United States; Posts: 2491, Gallery; Registered on: Nov 22, 2002; Reply to: nberry

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
nberry said:

I need to get this straight. The 430 weighing 3300lbs with performance tires, F1, E-diff, 483hp, in race mode, carbon brakes and driven by Von sarma does the Ring in 7:56 sec and the 997TT with 480hp, weighing about 3500lbs, with tip and street tires with Von Saurma driving will do the Ring in 7:45sec?

Now what is wrong with this picture

You can't just compare peak HP, Nick. One must look at the " area " under the TQ curve . From reports , the 997 Turbo , with it's variable geometry turbochargers is supposed to have " right now " torque in spades. So while the Ferrari F430 is musically building up steam between 3000-6000 rpm before the real thrust comes on, the Turbo , muffled exhaust note and all, may have quietly lept ahead.Do that out of every corner and it may add up to many seconds on those long Ring laps, even if the Ferrari carries more speed through a given corner.

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Mar 20, 2006 5:04:42 AM

Dock (Atlanta): Pilot; Loc: Atlanta, Georgia; Posts: 386, Gallery; Registered on: May 1, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
MKW said:
We also won't ever be given any official info on which of the approved ( such as Conti,Mich,Pirelli,Bridgestone,others ) OEM tires ( of which we have no choice ) would be the fastest around the Ring.

I asked a friend at PCNA about what OEM tires would be available on the 997 Turbo, specifically if the Michelin PSC tire would be available. Here's what he said..."The car will not come with Michelin Pilot Sport Cup tires they are DOT legal race tires."

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Mar 20, 2006 9:06:34 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59340, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
MKSGR said:
You are probably right as the manual version is said to be faster than Tip on the NBR. I.e. Tip is probably more like 7:49 as stated in other posts above

"Said" to be faster by...???

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Mar 20, 2006 9:17:20 AM

RC: Rennteam Administrator; Loc: Rennteam HQ , Germany; Posts: 59340, Gallery; Registered on: Mar 26, 2002; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
MKSGR said:
My expectation is still: Most buyers who decided to go for the Tip version will experience a very big disappointment. Tip is Tip. It is a bad compromise in a sprots car

Can I assume you already drove the "Tip is Tip"?

I also assume that you know of any other sportscar which uses the VTG technology in combination with an electronically controlled AWD system. And furthermore I also assume that you think that Porsche made the Tiptronic faster than the manual intentionally? And last but not least I assume that you know of other sportscars where the automatic tranny is faster than the manual, right?!

I'm still surprised to see and read how people who actually should know it better, being longtime Porsche owners and users of this forum, still don't seem to understand that the 997 Turbo is more spectacular and innovative as it may look at first look. I am still disappointed with the power figure and I still think that Porsche could have provided slightly more horses and a slightly better straight line performance for the sake of those, who believe only in numbers (sometimes I make part of those

). But on the other hand, Porsche provided some new or improved technologies which may be good for a surprise or two.

And finally, you don't really think that I would choose a Tiptronic equipped 997 Turbo for a 4-5 year lease if I would have the slightest doubt that I'm not going to be safisfied?! And trust me, I would have been the last person to order Tiptronic on a Porsche. Up til now.

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Mar 20, 2006 9:28:30 AM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8631, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: RC

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Ok.

Have you driven one then?

Your impressions are always very interesting!

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Mar 20, 2006 12:22:10 PM

TEE: Veteran; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 929, Gallery; Registered on: Feb 5, 2003; Reply to: RC

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
And finally, you don't really think that I would choose a Tiptronic equipped 997 Turbo for a 4-5 year lease if I would have the slightest doubt that I'm not going to be safisfied?! And trust me, I would have been the last person to order Tiptronic on a Porsche. Up til now.

I hope you don't get disapointed then. 4-5 years is a long time I would still favor the manual gears...

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Mar 20, 2006 3:55:40 PM

nberry: Rennteam VIP; Loc: La Jolla, USA , United States; Posts: 13693, Gallery; Registered on: Apr 11, 2002; Reply to: MKW

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
MKW said:
Quote:
nberry said:

I need to get this straight. The 430 weighing 3300lbs with performance tires, F1, E-diff, 483hp, in race mode, carbon brakes and driven by Von sarma does the Ring in 7:56 sec and the 997TT with 480hp, weighing about 3500lbs, with tip and street tires with Von Saurma driving will do the Ring in 7:45sec?

Now what is wrong with this picture

You can't just compare peak HP, Nick. One must look at the " area " under the TQ curve . From reports , the 997 Turbo , with it's variable geometry turbochargers is supposed to have " right now " torque in spades. So while the Ferrari F430 is musically building up steam between 3000-6000 rpm before the real thrust comes on, the Turbo , muffled exhaust note and all, may have quietly lept ahead.Do that out of every corner and it may add up to many seconds on those long Ring laps, even if the Ferrari carries more speed through a given corner.

With a flat torque curve between 3-6000rpm and e-differential, I honestly do not understand how over a course of that length the TT can beat the 430 by 10 or 5 sec for the matter. The cars are too close in performance attributes for such a substantial difference.

Could it be Von Saurma ineptness in driving a Ferrari? After all we are taking his time as the official time for the 430.

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Mar 20, 2006 3:59:16 PM

JimFlat6: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Cave , United States; Posts: 8631, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 25, 2004; Reply to: nberry

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Nick, you are going to give Von Saurma a complex. Maybe the next test he will be even slower if you keep chiding him!
Try some honey or money or whatever they use there. Maybe a case of beer who knows

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Mar 20, 2006 9:16:39 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: RC

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
RC said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
My expectation is still: Most buyers who decided to go for the Tip version will experience a very big disappointment. Tip is Tip. It is a bad compromise in a sprots car

Can I assume you already drove the "Tip is Tip"?
I also assume that you know of any other sportscar which uses the VTG technology in combination with an electronically controlled AWD system. And furthermore I also assume that you think that Porsche made the Tiptronic faster than the manual intentionally? And last but not least I assume that you know of other sportscars where the automatic tranny is faster than the manual, right?!

I'm still surprised to see and read how people who actually should know it better, being longtime Porsche owners and users of this forum, still don't seem to understand that the 997 Turbo is more spectacular and innovative as it may look at first look. I am still disappointed with the power figure and I still think that Porsche could have provided slightly more horses and a slightly better straight line performance for the sake of those, who believe only in numbers (sometimes I make part of those ). But on the other hand, Porsche provided some new or improved technologies which may be good for a surprise or two. And finally, you don't really think that I would choose a Tiptronic equipped 997 Turbo for a 4-5 year lease if I would have the slightest doubt that I'm not going to be safisfied?! And trust me, I would have been the last person to order Tiptronic on a Porsche. Up til now.

Yes, I drove a Tip last week-end

Just kidding. But the 997TT would be the very first Tip sportscar I liked

But I will wait and see

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Mar 21, 2006 5:22:50 AM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Will get a new 997TT Tip (or its successor iterations) every yr, no matter the N-ring time.

Not an aspiring racecar driver, but do appreciate 50-120MPH accel and steering/chassis/brake feel, esp in twisties; have zero interest in risk/reward proposition inherent in any track-driving.

Am curious re: incremental impacts of hp, torque band, Tip vs manual, trac, chassis, brakes, etc vs N-ring times.....despite much pseudo-precision re: SportAuto times (or whatever times one trusts), my simplistic view is purported time diffces are within roughly 5% for cars ranging from SL65 to 997TT....and we don't have precise supporting data re: individual car test conds: variance of times of same driver/same day/same car; mileage on car; tire brand/tire cond; clutch cond.; brakes cond; etc etc....lots of slop/unknowns in nos. Given how close the purported nos. are and how much slop/unknown is in the nos., IMO qualitative first-hand driving feel of car on one's favorite roads is the deciding factor....

My simple prelim conclusion (gotta place bets early as need to spec cars now to get them anytime soon): no car on planet will offer mid-range accel; trac; steering/chassis/brake feel; and active/passive safety of 997TT Tip for everyday/all-weather use.....and despite prob slower N-ring times, 599 will offer interesting complementary characteristics on dry surfaces...w/prob great exhaust note; ample stgt-line torque; fast F1 tranny shifts w/more ergonomic paddle shifters (vs P's ergonomically worthless Tip buttons); F's latest susp/stab ctrl tech; and a large fuel tank and range, so less freq fuel stops than w/997TT (a major weakness of 997TT for commuting duty)...

So, just need to get both 997TT and 599....at least in US, easy to obtain an early bespoke-spec copy of 997TT; however, 599 will take a bit more lobbying to get an early bespoke-spec copy....

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Mar 21, 2006 6:48:49 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: WBH

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
VKSF said:
Will get a new 997TT Tip (or its successor iterations) every yr, no matter the N-ring time. Not an aspiring racecar driver, but do appreciate 50-120MPH accel and steering/chassis/brake feel, esp in twisties; have zero interest in risk/reward proposition inherent in any track-driving.

I fully understand your position. The 997TT is most likely the perfect car for you given your description of how and where you will use it

The reason why I am so focused on ring times and acceleration figures is that you can really use the power on a daily basis over here: the key word is "Autobahn"

The 997TTS has to be the ultimate driving machine, the terminator on the Autobahn. Then I will love it as I have always loved the 996TTS

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Mar 22, 2006 12:52:22 AM

rhino: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Island , Saint Lucia; Posts: 2866, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 26, 2006; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Hope it makes you proud MKSGR!

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Mar 22, 2006 7:03:25 AM

BC: Rennteam Pro; Loc: Cape Town , South Africa; Posts: 2586, Gallery; Registered on: May 19, 2005; Reply to: icon

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
if it did indeed beat the f430 it must have been the weight of the ferrari mystique slowing the car down.
or maybe

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Mar 22, 2006 8:44:46 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: rhino

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
rhino said:
Hope it makes you proud MKSGR!

Please explain further. Thanks.

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Mar 22, 2006 9:30:25 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
VKSF said:
Will get a new 997TT Tip (or its successor iterations) every yr, no matter the N-ring time. Not an aspiring racecar driver, but do appreciate 50-120MPH accel and steering/chassis/brake feel, esp in twisties; have zero interest in risk/reward proposition inherent in any track-driving.

I fully understand your position. The 997TT is most likely the perfect car for you given your description of how and where you will use it

The reason why I am so focused on ring times and acceleration figures is that you can really use the power on a daily basis over here: the key word is "Autobahn"

The 997TTS has to be the ultimate driving machine, the terminator on the Autobahn. Then I will love it as I have always loved the 996TTS

Curious what speeds one can typically achieve on autobahns around Munich/Frankfurt/other relevant urban regions on typical upscale commute routes during rush hr? Is cruising typically at more than 120MPH in rush hr?...with 120-170+MPH accel bursts when traffic allows?

And when one encounters a potential autobahn rival car like 65/612, etc (which I assume are about as uncommon during rush hr commutes as they are on upscale fwy routes in SF/NYC/LA), do guys play an intimidation game w/each other? And how does one define the "terminator" on autobahn?....Is it theoretic top speed capability? 100-170MPH+ accel? Ability to cruise w/greatest stability at the highest top speed?

If one truly explores 100-170MPH+ accel and top speeds on a routine basis in urban autobahn commuting...and will often run into aggressive guys in 997TTs, 612s, etc, may want to opt for 599 over 997TT (in dry conds), as it may be hard to top 599's 200MPH+ top speed and 600hp+ for autobahn challenges....

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Mar 23, 2006 6:53:44 PM

MKSGR: Rennteam Moderator; Loc: Germany , Germany; Posts: 8098, Gallery; Registered on: Jun 17, 2002; Reply to: WBH

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
VKSF said:
Will get a new 997TT Tip (or its successor iterations) every yr, no matter the N-ring time. Not an aspiring racecar driver, but do appreciate 50-120MPH accel and steering/chassis/brake feel, esp in twisties; have zero interest in risk/reward proposition inherent in any track-driving.

I fully understand your position. The 997TT is most likely the perfect car for you given your description of how and where you will use it

The reason why I am so focused on ring times and acceleration figures is that you can really use the power on a daily basis over here: the key word is "Autobahn"

The 997TTS has to be the ultimate driving machine, the terminator on the Autobahn. Then I will love it as I have always loved the 996TTS

Curious what speeds one can typically achieve on autobahns around Munich/Frankfurt/other relevant urban regions on typical upscale commute routes during rush hr? Is cruising typically at more than 120MPH in rush hr?...with 120-170+MPH accel bursts when traffic allows?

And when one encounters a potential autobahn rival car like 65/612, etc (which I assume are about as uncommon during rush hr commutes as they are on upscale fwy routes in SF/NYC/LA), do guys play an intimidation game w/each other? And how does one define the "terminator" on autobahn?....Is it theoretic top speed capability? 100-170MPH+ accel? Ability to cruise w/greatest stability at the highest top speed?

If one truly explores 100-170MPH+ accel and top speeds on a routine basis in urban autobahn commuting...and will often run into aggressive guys in 997TTs, 612s, etc, may want to opt for 599 over 997TT (in dry conds), as it may be hard to top 599's 200MPH+ top speed and 600hp+ for autobahn challenges....

Of course things depend on where (in Germany) you live and where you are travelling to and at which time

However, I would dare to say that on nearly every business trip (and I do quite a lot of trips

) you can (safely) drive at speeds of around 250kph several times. There are distances where you could drive at speeds of 250kph-300kph for about 100km (no kidding). Of course, the latter scenario is (and should be) an exception

So indeed, there are lots of opportunities to use 450, 500, 550 or even 600hp in day-to-day traffic situations.

Regarding your question regarding meetings with other fast cars I have to agree that they happen rather seldom. However, if such meeting happens it is very nice to test the acceleration performance of a car. I would say that the most important speed range in that context is between 180kph and 300kph

P.S.: That's why I am so annoyed by the acceleration of the 997TT Tip - within the relevant AB speed range the manual version is quicker than the Tip version; however, the Tip version is faster below 200kph - very annoying

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Mar 23, 2006 7:58:11 PM

Ferdie: Rennteam VIP; Loc: Europe , Germany; Posts: 8213, Gallery; Registered on: Jul 2, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
MKSGR said:
...However, I would dare to say that on nearly every business trip (and I do quite a lot of trips ) you can (safely) drive at speeds of around 250kph several times.
...Regarding your question regarding meetings with other fast cars I have to agree that they happen rather seldom. However, if such meeting happens it is very nice to test the acceleration performance of a car. I would say that the most important speed range in that context is between 180kph and 300kph
...

Hi VK! Haven't seen you for quite a while!

I can underline MKSGR's experiences - as long as you are not in rush hour there is a good chance to hit higher-than-average speeds.

In about every region of Germany there are low-frequented two-lane or very nice three-lane Autobahn strips to drive on!

Anyways, do we have to start counting the days until you'll be seen around here?

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Mar 23, 2006 10:46:47 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: MKSGR

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
VKSF said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
Quote:
VKSF said:
Will get a new 997TT Tip (or its successor iterations) every yr, no matter the N-ring time. Not an aspiring racecar driver, but do appreciate 50-120MPH accel and steering/chassis/brake feel, esp in twisties; have zero interest in risk/reward proposition inherent in any track-driving.

I fully understand your position. The 997TT is most likely the perfect car for you given your description of how and where you will use it

The reason why I am so focused on ring times and acceleration figures is that you can really use the power on a daily basis over here: the key word is "Autobahn"

The 997TTS has to be the ultimate driving machine, the terminator on the Autobahn. Then I will love it as I have always loved the 996TTS

Curious what speeds one can typically achieve on autobahns around Munich/Frankfurt/other relevant urban regions on typical upscale commute routes during rush hr? Is cruising typically at more than 120MPH in rush hr?...with 120-170+MPH accel bursts when traffic allows?

And when one encounters a potential autobahn rival car like 65/612, etc (which I assume are about as uncommon during rush hr commutes as they are on upscale fwy routes in SF/NYC/LA), do guys play an intimidation game w/each other? And how does one define the "terminator" on autobahn?....Is it theoretic top speed capability? 100-170MPH+ accel? Ability to cruise w/greatest stability at the highest top speed?

If one truly explores 100-170MPH+ accel and top speeds on a routine basis in urban autobahn commuting...and will often run into aggressive guys in 997TTs, 612s, etc, may want to opt for 599 over 997TT (in dry conds), as it may be hard to top 599's 200MPH+ top speed and 600hp+ for autobahn challenges....

Of course things depend on where (in Germany) you live and where you are travelling to and at which time

However, I would dare to say that on nearly every business trip (and I do quite a lot of trips ) you can (safely) drive at speeds of around 250kph several times. There are distances where you could drive at speeds of 250kph-300kph for about 100km (no kidding). Of course, the latter scenario is (and should be) an exception

So indeed, there are lots of opportunities to use 450, 500, 550 or even 600hp in day-to-day traffic situations.

Regarding your question regarding meetings with other fast cars I have to agree that they happen rather seldom. However, if such meeting happens it is very nice to test the acceleration performance of a car. I would say that the most important speed range in that context is between 180kph and 300kph

P.S.: That's why I am so annoyed by the acceleration of the 997TT Tip - within the relevant AB speed range the manual version is quicker than the Tip version; however, the Tip version is faster below 200kph - very annoying

Thx for your detailed obsvns....always interesting to hear what's poss in daily use w/these cars

Sounds like given traffic flow limitations and poss some restricted AB segments in urban/suburban zones, rush hr AB speeds on, for ex., the routes from Munich's upscale suburbs to one's office may not be materially faster than flow on SF's 280 or LA's 73 fwys....

.....i.e., roughly 80MPH traffic flow w/a few poss bursts of 80-120MPH accel....

I'd be curious to see what "real-world" AB accels are from 100-170MPH for 997TT Tip vs Manual; 599; and SL65....esp for traditional manual trannies, I have doubts re: actual shift times and accel times for even a 99%ile rennteam driver, using his own car (not a casually abused press pool car)....may have some surprising findings esp for high-torque cars, where gearing may be a less critical factor in mid-and-upper range accel......

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Mar 23, 2006 10:59:46 PM

WBH: Expert; Loc: CA; Posts: 1963, Gallery; Registered on: Jan 2, 2004; Reply to: Ferdie

Re: Some hope remains (997TT NBR time)

Quote:
Ferdie said:
Quote:
MKSGR said:
...However, I would dare to say that on nearly every business trip (and I do quite a lot of trips ) you can (safely) drive at speeds of around 250kph several times.
...Regarding your question regarding meetings with other fast cars I have to agree that they happen rather seldom. However, if such meeting happens it is very nice to test the acceleration performance of a car. I would say that the most important speed range in that context is between 180kph and 300kph
...

Hi VK! Haven't seen you for quite a while!

I can underline MKSGR's experiences - as long as you are not in rush hour there is a good chance to hit higher-than-average speeds.

In about every region of Germany there are low-frequented two-lane or very nice three-lane Autobahn strips to drive on!

Anyways, do we have to start counting the days until you'll be seen around here?

Ferdie, good to see you on The Board

If I lived in NYC/London, I would undoubtedly buy a wkend house in Munich to keep a 997TT and 599...where else in world does one have easy access to AB for high-speed accel testing; mtn twisties for handling comparos; and fine dining and wine of NItaly&SFrance....all within easy (and fun) strike range in a 997TT or 599?

But since I'm no longer in NYC, I'll have to get by w/my poor man's version of Munich here in SF.....

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